FORREST COOPER | Can Weak Men Be Good?

Will Spencer: 00:00:00

My name is Will Spencer and you're listening to the renaissance of Men podcast, a place for extended, in depth discussions about the rebirth of virtuous masculinity happening around the world today.

Will Spencer: 00:00:10

My guest this week is a former US Army Ranger and special forces operator, plus philosopher, journalist and security consultant.

Will Spencer: 00:00:19

Today he hosts the redacted culture cast, discussing the interaction between violence and values in gun culture.

Will Spencer: 00:00:25

In what is easily one of my top three conversations of all time, please welcome Forrest Cooper.

Will Spencer: 00:00:32

This is a time of transformation.

Will Spencer: 00:00:38

As old ways fall, men are called to rise, to heal our lives, grow strong, and transcend our limitations.

Will Spencer: 00:00:54

In tribes around the world, drawing on the best of masculinity from all of time, a new day is beginning.

Will Spencer: 00:01:05

This is the renaissance of men.

Will Spencer: 00:01:10

You are the renaissance over the past couple weeks, the Christo Twitter sphere has exploded in a discussion about the relationship between Christianity and strength in men.

Will Spencer: 00:01:25

To me, this is not a subject worthy of debate.

Will Spencer: 00:01:28

Its not even worth discussing.

Will Spencer: 00:01:30

I regard it as more productive to argue about what color the sky and grass is or whether water is wet.

Will Spencer: 00:01:36

But whatever is going on in Christianity right now shows that men cant quite figure out that a man can be both christian and strong, and that theres not a contradiction between the two.

Will Spencer: 00:01:47

And lets be clear about what I mean by strong.

Will Spencer: 00:01:49

I mean fit, as in a physically capable body appropriate for your height and age.

Will Spencer: 00:01:55

Lets start there, you know, with the basics.

Will Spencer: 00:01:57

Id also add the renaissance of men council standard of emotionally stable and resilient, mentally sharp and spiritually committed to a daily practice of your faith.

Will Spencer: 00:02:07

Put those together and you get the kind of strong that puts the gynocracy or the female institutional dominion over America on notice.

Will Spencer: 00:02:15

So if you ask me, not only is it okay that christian men be strong in those ways, its required id make the case that its even commanded.

Will Spencer: 00:02:24

And yet saying so is a sure way to start a Twitter firestorm.

Will Spencer: 00:02:27

Because obviously pursuing those things must inevitably come at the cost of godliness.

Will Spencer: 00:02:32

I mean, we wouldnt want to interrupt our precious time in our prayer closet to care for our bodies, would we?

Will Spencer: 00:02:38

In case it isnt obvious, I regard arguments over this topic as ridiculous and self defeating at best, or being made in bad faith to cover up one's own shortcomings at worst.

Will Spencer: 00:02:48

It's like saying I'm gonna make sure everyone else is weak to cover up from my own weakness.

Will Spencer: 00:02:53

Liberals and leftists in San Francisco do this with misery.

Will Spencer: 00:02:57

If we're all depressed, how can anyone even say what happiness is?

Will Spencer: 00:03:01

So maybe for christians today, it's if we're all weak.

Will Spencer: 00:03:04

How can anyone say what strength is?

Will Spencer: 00:03:07

Some words that come to mind in response to this are nihilism, pietism and gnosticism.

Will Spencer: 00:03:13

Take your pick.

Will Spencer: 00:03:14

And yet somehow it works.

Will Spencer: 00:03:16

Christians buy it.

Will Spencer: 00:03:17

They think godliness and goodness can be squared with weakness.

Will Spencer: 00:03:21

This defies common sense for me.

Will Spencer: 00:03:23

But we are living in clown world after all, and the church is not immune from having its own ring in the circus.

Will Spencer: 00:03:29

So with christians I've found that it's necessary to take another approach.

Will Spencer: 00:03:33

The frontal assaults of words like gluttony and sloth or the statement weakness is ungodly dont seem to work because apparently theres plenty of scriptural and cultural armor against it built up over generations.

Will Spencer: 00:03:45

Verses like my kingdom is not of this world and physical training is of some value get deployed on demand, which I regard as an abuse of scripture.

Will Spencer: 00:03:55

Concealing personal failings behind proof texts.

Will Spencer: 00:03:58

Its a bit like someone hiding by covering their eyes.

Will Spencer: 00:04:02

I mean, I see you.

Will Spencer: 00:04:04

The good news is since were dealing with adults, we can address the subject another way by undermining the core premise beneath the counter argument.

Will Spencer: 00:04:12

Its a bit like the philosophical version of infiltrating behind enemy lines, parachuting from altitude with specialized high speed gear, and quietly taking out your targets before being exfiltrated in a helicopter or escaping to a safehouse outside the village and fitted with a new identity before catching a commercial flight home.

Will Spencer: 00:04:30

Get my drift?

Will Spencer: 00:04:31

Which brings me to my guest this week.

Will Spencer: 00:04:33

His name is Forrest Cooper, and he might know a thing or two about the scenario I just described, not in a philosophical sense, but also a physical, material, real world sense because he's a former us army Ranger and security consultant.

Will Spencer: 00:04:47

But he's also more than that.

Will Spencer: 00:04:49

He's a journalist and philosopher, and he hosts the Redacted culturecast podcast.

Will Spencer: 00:04:53

As their website states, the act of redacting a document implies that one, the document exists, and two, that information has been removed.

Will Spencer: 00:05:03

When applied to life, it translates into our pursuit of happiness is not something to be spied upon.

Will Spencer: 00:05:09

Free men don't ask for permission, so those bits of data should help you triangulate his philosophical position.

Will Spencer: 00:05:16

And he came to me with an idea for this show that speaks directly to the moment christian men and women are facing, not whether goodness and strength are at odds.

Will Spencer: 00:05:24

That's like trying to bash in through the front gate.

Will Spencer: 00:05:27

Instead, he wanted to discuss can a weak man even be good in the first place?

Will Spencer: 00:05:32

Do you see the difference?

Will Spencer: 00:05:34

Were wondering, if a man is weak, is he even capable of being good?

Will Spencer: 00:05:38

This is what I mean by infiltrating behind the lines were questioning the very premise that weakness is defensible from a christian perspective.

Will Spencer: 00:05:46

Because if we prove that you cant be both weak and good, then christians who wish to be good cannot be weak.

Will Spencer: 00:05:53

And we kicked that ball around for more than 4 hours, producing one of the finest conversations I've ever hosted on the renaissance of men.

Will Spencer: 00:06:00

This conversation made me proud to do what I do because I know that not everyone can even imagine a four hour podcast, let alone listen to one.

Will Spencer: 00:06:09

But praise God, I know that my listeners are here for it.

Will Spencer: 00:06:12

So lace up your boots and let's go.

Will Spencer: 00:06:15

Along the way to our destination, Forrest and I discussed a number of different topics, including guilt, shame and the red pill, masturbating your sense of morality, gun culture versus masculinity culture, the cult of the feminine, the differences between revolution and reformation, Ted Kaczynski versus the gospel, and finally, why it matters that orcs don't have a culture.

Will Spencer: 00:06:39

If you enjoy the renaissance of Men podcast, thank you.

Will Spencer: 00:06:42

I think you're going to love this one.

Will Spencer: 00:06:44

Please leave a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, plus a five star rating on Spotify and share this episode or another one of your favorites with a friend.

Will Spencer: 00:06:53

Tell them yes, the four plus hour runtime is not a joke.

Will Spencer: 00:06:57

And please welcome this week's guest on the podcast, a true warrior of mind, heart, spirit, and body, the host of the redacted culture cast, Forrest Cooper.

Will Spencer: 00:07:10

Forrest, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Forrest Cooper: 00:07:12

Hey will, it's good to talk to you again.

Forrest Cooper: 00:07:15

We had a couple conversations in the past, but this is a long awaited one, so I've been looking forward to this for a while.

Will Spencer: 00:07:22

Absolutely.

Will Spencer: 00:07:23

I really enjoyed coming on your show maybe a couple months ago, but I've enjoyed our personal conversations as well.

Will Spencer: 00:07:29

I was actually thinking about that.

Will Spencer: 00:07:31

I was thinking about that the other day, like how much time we've actually spent in conversation and what a privilege it is to get to talk to somebody that I feel like I know on the show, as opposed to like we just meeting from.

Will Spencer: 00:07:41

Let's just go right now.

Will Spencer: 00:07:42

Right?

Will Spencer: 00:07:42

So it's good to have that familiarity.

Forrest Cooper: 00:07:45

Well, let's do our best then, to not make everybody in the audience the third wheel.

Will Spencer: 00:07:50

Yes.

Will Spencer: 00:07:50

We're just going to do in jokes for the next period of time.

Will Spencer: 00:07:55

So we scheduled this, we scheduled this a while ago, and it turns out that it's actually pretty fortuitous timing given what's happening in the news with Israel and Palestine and the Christian Twitterverse exploding with questions of, are we actually allowed to be strong christian men?

Will Spencer: 00:08:13

And so I'm looking forward to talking about all of these things and seeing where these questions take us.

Forrest Cooper: 00:08:19

Yeah, I definitely woke up this morning with a sense of vigor after spending some time in the word and then going through all of my feed to look at what I'm kind of getting started with for the day.

Forrest Cooper: 00:08:29

First world problems of a media guy.

Forrest Cooper: 00:08:32

But just the way that Twitter has been exploding in what I would think of as bad faith arguments about christian men being compelled to be strong, bad.

Will Spencer: 00:08:42

Faith arguments about christian men not being compelled to be strong, or the bad faith arguments like, you have to be, because what Twitter has been saying is that by saying that you have to be strong as a christian man.

Will Spencer: 00:08:52

Oh, my gosh, no, we should be pursuing godliness.

Will Spencer: 00:08:55

That's the part that I think I would disagree with.

Will Spencer: 00:08:58

But I think there are a lot of men making good faith arguments, but we probably agree.

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:03

Well, let's start with a fundamental question.

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:04

Can weak men be good?

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:08

Like if.

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:09

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:09

So let's talk, let's talk about the concept, because let's talk about, like, concepts of humility.

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:13

And you read the Bible, and you could go into one corinthians, wherever Paul compels, or he implores the corinthians to be strong, act like men.

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:23

And it's like, it's the core Bible verse of even my father's church's men's group.

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:29

And it's this concern about Paul compelling these people to live in strength.

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:38

And I think out of strength is where you find humility, because I think the bad faith argument that's always presented is that that strength is sort of this ancillary fashion statement kind of thing where you could be strong or you could be weak, or there's this bad faith argument about, like, what about old men?

Forrest Cooper: 00:09:58

And I've got an old friend who's a professor of theology, and he's well established in, he's a mentor of mine, and he's not young, and I wouldn't describe him as a muscle Mandev, but he is.

Forrest Cooper: 00:10:14

But he, his strength comes from more than just his physicality, but there is a physical element to it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:10:20

He disciplines his body.

Forrest Cooper: 00:10:21

He maintains his health.

Forrest Cooper: 00:10:23

And the bad faith argument is that it's pitting the idea of being strong against being humble or against being kind or against being graceful or against being merciful.

Forrest Cooper: 00:10:36

And what the issue, the issue that I have with that argument is how are you expected to be humble if you're just a doormat.

Forrest Cooper: 00:10:44

Like if you, this calls back to, this idea about, this calls back to even the most, one of the most abused verses to target people of, like, turning the other cheek.

Forrest Cooper: 00:10:58

And the thing about turning the other cheek is it implies a bit of a prerequisite that you have an alternative.

Forrest Cooper: 00:11:07

You have an alternative.

Forrest Cooper: 00:11:08

You could choose to do something else, but you choose instead mercy.

Forrest Cooper: 00:11:12

You choose instead grace.

Forrest Cooper: 00:11:13

And this is between men, and this isn't between God and us.

Forrest Cooper: 00:11:17

This isn't like, well, I am choosing to be a Christian outside of divine intervention.

Forrest Cooper: 00:11:26

It's not like my strength had something to do with Jesus on the cross.

Forrest Cooper: 00:11:29

It's rather, if you're compelling people to make a choice, you're implying that there's a choice.

Forrest Cooper: 00:11:36

And I think that what we've done in these, this kind of christianese pietism that I've seen you talk about is that we've missed, we've used the word pietism as a never ending excuse for simply weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 00:11:51

And it's not weakness before the gospel, it's not weakness before Christ, because if you pursue strength, you see your own weakness, but it's recognizing that the weakness before God and the weakness before the gospel is that I am not capable of producing it myself.

Forrest Cooper: 00:12:09

But then when you falsely pit that against also disciplining your body, you completely throw out all of Romans.

Forrest Cooper: 00:12:15

What shall we say then?

Forrest Cooper: 00:12:16

Shall we go on sinning?

Forrest Cooper: 00:12:17

That grace may increase.

Forrest Cooper: 00:12:18

How does that not that, how does that implication not also apply to how we live our lives?

Forrest Cooper: 00:12:24

If you're going to be a man and you're going to be responsible for your life, and you're going to take the word seriously and you're not going to discipline yourself, then you're there.

Forrest Cooper: 00:12:35

Something's out of sync here.

Forrest Cooper: 00:12:36

So I think that's kind of the quick display, but let's get into it further.

Will Spencer: 00:12:43

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you.

Will Spencer: 00:12:45

I posted on Twitter today.

Will Spencer: 00:12:47

I've been kicking this thought around for the past week or so.

Will Spencer: 00:12:51

And I said pietism is the posture that christians retreat to when an idea threatens to shake them out of their complacency.

Will Spencer: 00:13:00

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:13:02

Go ahead.

Forrest Cooper: 00:13:03

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I agree with the, I agree with the sentiment.

Forrest Cooper: 00:13:07

Um, it's also just not a universal, but we're, like, wise enough to figure that out.

Forrest Cooper: 00:13:11

The question is, are you making yourself weak so that you don't have to bear the responsibility of being strong, you don't have to make decisions.

Forrest Cooper: 00:13:19

And I think that's where it comes into.

Will Spencer: 00:13:21

Well, and then you use scripture as an excuse.

Will Spencer: 00:13:24

Right?

Will Spencer: 00:13:24

And what I.

Will Spencer: 00:13:25

What I observe in a lot of, uh, christian men that I.

Will Spencer: 00:13:28

That I mentor is that they're hiding behind scripture as a wall.

Will Spencer: 00:13:32

And I've worked a lot of men through this.

Will Spencer: 00:13:34

Like, what about this?

Will Spencer: 00:13:35

What about this?

Will Spencer: 00:13:36

What about this verse?

Will Spencer: 00:13:36

But what about this verse?

Will Spencer: 00:13:38

And I say scripture is not a wall that you hide behind.

Will Spencer: 00:13:40

It's a shield that you carry in front of you.

Will Spencer: 00:13:43

Right?

Will Spencer: 00:13:43

It's a.

Will Spencer: 00:13:44

You have to be mobile.

Will Spencer: 00:13:45

And too many christian men, and women, for that matter, hide behind scripture as a wall.

Will Spencer: 00:13:50

And they think that it makes them godly, when, in fact, it just makes them, for lack of a better word, cannon fodder.

Will Spencer: 00:13:56

It makes them weak.

Will Spencer: 00:13:58

It doesn't make them meek.

Will Spencer: 00:13:59

It makes them weak.

Will Spencer: 00:14:00

It's.

Will Spencer: 00:14:00

Meekness is strength restrained, not weakness.

Will Spencer: 00:14:03

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:14:04

Weakness.

Will Spencer: 00:14:04

Meekness is strength restrained, not weakness.

Will Spencer: 00:14:07

Celebrated.

Will Spencer: 00:14:07

I got to write that down.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:09

Yeah, you should, because that's a great line.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:12

I agree with it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:13

I think we could dig into some New Testament and Old Testament theology over time and continue to explore that in humility, submitting ourselves before the gospel and before the word.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:24

But, of course, it kind of going back to the bad faith argument is if I come out and say that christian men should be strong and you pit strength against righteousness, I didn't present that argument.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:37

And that's why I'm saying it's a bad faith argument.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:39

I didn't come and say, if you can't bench press 300 pounds, you're not a good Christian.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:45

I would become.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:46

You know, I think christian men are saying, you should not be a weak man.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:51

You should not.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:52

You should.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:52

You have these things.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:53

You have your life.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:55

You have your responsibilities.

Forrest Cooper: 00:14:57

And part of strength is having mastery over your environment.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:02

Not absolute.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:03

We're not.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:03

You know, we're not despots of our own world.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:07

But it's that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:09

It's that ability to act and make decisions and be able to execute those decisions.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:15

And then by pursuing them, we also.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:18

Oh, no.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:19

Am I still here?

Will Spencer: 00:15:20

You're back.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:21

Because I still.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:22

I see me just fine, and I'm looking at my connection.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:24

I hope it's not terrible.

Will Spencer: 00:15:26

That's fine.

Will Spencer: 00:15:26

Keep going.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:27

Okay.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:27

Okay.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:28

But even in that case, it's this.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:31

The bad argument is that it pits the idea of pursuing strength or health or capability in opposition to the gospel.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:41

I am not trying to.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:43

I'm not trying to bench press my way into the pearly gates, but I am recognizing that as a man, I have responsibilities on this earth, either to my family or to my community or to the word.

Forrest Cooper: 00:15:56

And if I try to make myself weak in order to avoid that responsibility, am I not just sinning in a long term format?

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:05

Am I not just saying, God, I don't have to.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:08

I don't have to face, I don't have to run the race tomorrow because I've cut my horse's hamstrings today?

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:14

Well, it's like, you know, that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:16

That.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:16

That's where it comes into.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:18

And then.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:19

And then from, it gets even worse because we can, we are fully capable of producing in ourselves the feeling of doing good without actually doing it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:27

And we have a word for this.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:29

We have a word for this, and it's called masturbation.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:32

And it's not.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:32

It's not a pretty word.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:33

And everyone goes, ugh.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:34

But are you.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:35

Are you masturbating your sense of morality by producing in yourself the feeling of doing good?

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:39

Oh, I would do this, or I would do that, or I.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:42

This.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:43

This is what I, you know, like, I don't have to deal with the potentiality of violence because I could never do that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:49

Are you really just producing in yourself the feeling of being pious without actually being pious?

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:57

Are you actually producing.

Forrest Cooper: 00:16:58

Are you just producing in yourself the feeling of being humble without actually being humble?

Forrest Cooper: 00:17:03

Like, and this is where I think the question of strength and Christianity or strength and morality, even to some sense, capacity and morality have a relationship with one another.

Will Spencer: 00:17:15

So you started out the question, can weak men be good?

Will Spencer: 00:17:19

And so I guess there's a couple terms that need to be defined in there.

Will Spencer: 00:17:24

Weak and good.

Will Spencer: 00:17:25

So what do we mean by good and what do we mean by weak?

Will Spencer: 00:17:27

But first, let me just say, I think the bad faith argument that I see in addition to yours is that when you say men should be strong, men who are interested in making bad faith arguments, like, what do I got to look like?

Will Spencer: 00:17:41

Arnold Schwarzenegger, bro?

Will Spencer: 00:17:42

It's like they have this image in their mind that you're hearing something that I didn't say.

Will Spencer: 00:17:48

Strength can look a thousand different ways.

Will Spencer: 00:17:50

In fact, there was a podcast that put up a quiz.

Will Spencer: 00:17:57

Which of these men would you consider more as a christian podcast?

Will Spencer: 00:18:00

The Bible bashed podcast, I think.

Will Spencer: 00:18:03

Which of these christian men is more masculine?

Will Spencer: 00:18:05

A long distance runner or a bodybuilder?

Will Spencer: 00:18:07

And I said it's a false choice because both of those men can be equally masculine if they've achieved the same level of proficiency in what they do.

Will Spencer: 00:18:16

And in fact, they would be good teammates together, because I'm not going to tell a championship marathon runner that, oh, sorry, bro.

Will Spencer: 00:18:23

You're not masculine because this guy can bench press 500 pounds like it's two completely different body types.

Will Spencer: 00:18:28

God did not make men one size fits all, right?

Will Spencer: 00:18:32

And I know that's intentional.

Will Spencer: 00:18:35

We see this.

Will Spencer: 00:18:36

I use this example all the time.

Will Spencer: 00:18:37

Watch the Lord of the Rings.

Will Spencer: 00:18:39

In the Lord of the Rings, you have nine very different men that have very different skills that are all very complementary, and they accomplish the task together.

Will Spencer: 00:18:47

And if they were all aragorn, it wouldn't work.

Will Spencer: 00:18:50

You need to have a Frodo in there, right?

Will Spencer: 00:18:53

And so when christian men hear strong, they have this image of this muscle bound hulk that they have to become, and then they're like, oh, that's an idol.

Will Spencer: 00:19:01

And they immediately cut themselves off from discovering what their own personal form of strength is.

Will Spencer: 00:19:06

And that's the part that's so frustrating.

Will Spencer: 00:19:08

It's like you've conjured an image in your mind that you want to react to so that you don't feel accountable for being that, and you cut yourself off from discovering your own God given potential.

Will Spencer: 00:19:18

And that's the part that's so frustrating.

Forrest Cooper: 00:19:21

Yep.

Forrest Cooper: 00:19:22

So are we going to.

Forrest Cooper: 00:19:23

Which one are we going to define first, weakness or goodness?

Will Spencer: 00:19:27

Let's start with good, because then from there, we'll go into how weakness impacts goodness.

Forrest Cooper: 00:19:34

Okay, so let's not confuse goodness with righteousness or justified before the Lord.

Will Spencer: 00:19:41

Two different things.

Forrest Cooper: 00:19:42

Yep.

Forrest Cooper: 00:19:43

But let's make sure, for the sake of this conversation, let's make sure this distinction is clear.

Forrest Cooper: 00:19:48

Goodness is not earned.

Forrest Cooper: 00:19:51

Righteousness, goodness is the way that I would want to define goodness, especially in the frame of this conversation, is more of a disposition and a direction.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:01

Goodness is me pursuing that which is good and contending with evil.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:06

And so goodness is not a state of being.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:10

Now, I'll use even this metaphor.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:13

My background from a long time ago is I was an army ranger.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:16

I did the Army Ranger thing, and I joined the military, got into special operations, and did a number of deployments there.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:22

And one thing that you learn that is that I learned very begrudgingly, is that you never arrive.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:30

You never are there.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:34

You go to the army.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:36

My pipeline, my path that I took is I joined the army out of high school.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:39

I was homeschooled.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:40

So I joined the army, went to basic training.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:44

And then what happens after basic training?

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:45

We go to airborne school.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:46

And what happened after airborne school?

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:48

We went to Ranger selection.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:50

And what happens after Ranger selection?

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:51

You get put in your battalion, and then you have to prove yourself to your team leader, and you have to prove yourself to your squad.

Forrest Cooper: 00:20:56

And your guys and your, and your platoon that you're going to be working with, but you have to do that all the time.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:02

The moment that you start sitting on your laurels, people start questioning whether or not you're really part of the team.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:09

And after a while, you go.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:11

After a while, after you've sort of earned a bit of a place as a lower caste private, you go to ranger school, which is different than selection, and then you get your tab.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:21

And now you're sort of in the higher caste.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:24

But if you immediately go back and sit on your laurels like, well, I got my tab now I don't have to do anything.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:30

You kind of stop being a ranger.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:32

You stop doing the job.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:34

And so goodness, for the sake of this argument or the sake of this conversation, is pursuit of the good.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:41

Are you pursuing the good?

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:43

Goodness, I think, would be, is more of this disposition rather than being at a status of being.

Forrest Cooper: 00:21:51

Righteousness for the sake of the way that we're defining it, is only achieved through Christ's death and resurrection on the cross, which is not something that we do of our own strength.

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:03

And I mean that very clearly, whether it's strength of heart, strength of will, strength of body.

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:08

And yet we are still compelled in the Old and New Testament to continue pursuing that which is good.

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:15

You are slaves to righteousness or you are slaves to sin.

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:19

Are you acting in pursuit of righteousness?

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:23

Are you trying to live out your sanctification?

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:25

Or have you achieved this?

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:27

Not malthusian, what's the best word, this character version of saved by grace theology, which says, I got mine, now I don't have to do anything.

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:36

We all know that person when we see them.

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:38

They're a caricature of the gospel.

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:41

And so when, when you're.

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:45

But so when you, when you become, when you.

Forrest Cooper: 00:22:48

When Christ enters into your life, if we're gonna use that terminology, or when you become saved, and I didn't have any lightning from the sky christian experience that some people have, it, it be, then it, your perspective changes.

Forrest Cooper: 00:23:04

Am I pursuing.

Forrest Cooper: 00:23:05

It does over time, and it takes effort and energy.

Forrest Cooper: 00:23:08

Am I actually pursuing that which is good or am I complacent?

Forrest Cooper: 00:23:13

Sometimes I need to take refuge in the gospel.

Forrest Cooper: 00:23:16

Sometimes I need to take refuge in Christ's holiness and his strength, recognizing that I'm incapable of achieving it myself.

Forrest Cooper: 00:23:24

But then I still go to bed, wake up and try it again.

Forrest Cooper: 00:23:27

I don't quit because of that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:23:29

And so that, I think, is goodness is a bit of a kind of a leaning, a direction, an aim, a pursuit as opposed to a status.

Will Spencer: 00:23:40

I really like that because there's a sense of, especially the juxtaposition of resting on your laurels.

Will Spencer: 00:23:48

Like, I think we can see that, that when a man at any stage of his life begins to rest on his laurels and think that he's done enough any age, you know, young to old, there's a sense in which he begins to lose something of himself and perhaps even begins to rot a little bit.

Will Spencer: 00:24:06

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:24:08

I understand that a lot of men want to reach a stage of life, particularly as they get older, where it's like, well, I did my job and now I'm going to retreat to the golf course or the lake house, and I'm just going to sit here.

Will Spencer: 00:24:21

And I don't think that's actually good for men.

Will Spencer: 00:24:23

I think it's very bad.

Will Spencer: 00:24:24

I think that's when they begin to diminish as men versus continual refinement towards a changing ideal that you never actually arrive at.

Will Spencer: 00:24:32

Even a man who's 70 or look at Thomas Sowell.

Will Spencer: 00:24:35

Thomas Sowell is like 90.

Will Spencer: 00:24:37

And he just wrote a new book, another new book.

Will Spencer: 00:24:39

He's still crushing it.

Will Spencer: 00:24:40

He's apparently a very accomplished photographer, and that's a man who has continued pursuing excellence well past the point when most men in american culture, they think that they ever can.

Will Spencer: 00:24:51

And I think that's fundamentally masculine.

Will Spencer: 00:24:53

I think that's pursuing the good versus the complacency which can set in at any stage of our life, twenties, thirties, that's when you begin to fall away from, from righteousness.

Will Spencer: 00:25:05

So I really like that.

Will Spencer: 00:25:06

I really like that definition that you laid out.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:09

And I have, I have personal experiences in it, too.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:12

Like, so I, I finished.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:15

I left the military, and then I did some other things for a while.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:19

And then I went to school for theology and philosophy.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:22

And so that's kind of like, you know, and in some sense, I eventually, at one point in time, I recognized that I had the attitude of, I did the thing.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:31

Like, I went to school for theology.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:33

What more do you need me to do?

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:35

But that's a personal experience.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:37

And as, and when, as I adopted that mindset of like, well, I've done the thing, then I allowed myself to be.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:46

Then.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:46

Then I immediately started rotting is the best way of saying it, whether it was through alcohol, whether it was through depression, or different issues that happened at that time.

Forrest Cooper: 00:25:58

And we can certainly get into him if we must, but the same thing applies to so many things.

Forrest Cooper: 00:26:06

I knew a businessman who was rather successful, and he retired.

Forrest Cooper: 00:26:11

And after a while, he went back and started a new business because he realized that he was just complacent and he was a better man when he was in pursuit of a goal.

Forrest Cooper: 00:26:22

The same thing applies to relationships, and we've seen this happen.

Forrest Cooper: 00:26:26

We've seen this phrase a thousand times, date your wife.

Forrest Cooper: 00:26:29

And, like, and so my wife and I have been married for just shy of eight years by a couple of days.

Forrest Cooper: 00:26:35

And it is something that we've had to realize this year is that we've been married this long.

Forrest Cooper: 00:26:43

Are we still pursuing a marriage, or are we just resting in the status of being married?

Forrest Cooper: 00:26:50

Married.

Will Spencer: 00:26:52

That is a really great.

Will Spencer: 00:26:53

That is a really great distinction, because I can think of another ways across my life where resting in the status of something threatens to take hold throughout our lives.

Will Spencer: 00:27:05

I don't think it's just a marriage thing or a career thing.

Will Spencer: 00:27:08

I think there's a pervasive attitude that may be woven into the human condition or maybe part of America today or the world.

Will Spencer: 00:27:15

I don't really know where there's a temptation to be like, okay, I got the thing, or I did the thing, and now I just get to kind of rest in the.

Will Spencer: 00:27:22

In the having or the doing and be or the being of it instead of the constant pursuit of betterment and in various significant ways.

Will Spencer: 00:27:30

And I can certainly relate to that.

Will Spencer: 00:27:32

Like, I had spent my time traveling overseas, and I got back to the United States, and I was like, I literally did the thing in my own version.

Will Spencer: 00:27:39

Like, I literally did the Indiana Jones thing that I had set out to do.

Will Spencer: 00:27:42

And I got back, and there was a six month period where I was, like, during COVID like, well, what am I going to do now?

Will Spencer: 00:27:49

And it was actually quite difficult.

Will Spencer: 00:27:52

me, those first few months of: 2020

Will Spencer: 00:27:59

Countries around the world, doing all these crazy things, and now here I am in this apartment that I'm in right now with no furniture, nothing glamorous about it at all.

Will Spencer: 00:28:08

What do I do now?

Will Spencer: 00:28:09

And meanwhile, I could have just rested in it and been like, hey, I just did the thing.

Will Spencer: 00:28:13

Look at how awesome I am.

Will Spencer: 00:28:14

But instead, I looked for the next hill to take.

Will Spencer: 00:28:17

And I think there's something very masculine about that as well, for both men and women.

Forrest Cooper: 00:28:21

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 00:28:21

And if you want to get extremely esoteric in our theology, I believe that this thing of complacency, this status that we're talking about, is taking refuge in your own achievements and not placing your identity and your refuge in Christ.

Forrest Cooper: 00:28:38

I know that it's such a christian y statement, but there's something that I'm calling to in this point is that you look at job, you look at the Old Testament characters who are again and again humbled before the Lord, particularly when they placed their identity and their status in themselves.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:01

And you see this in the New Testament as well.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:05

And I get to, I'm only saying this because it has been sort of laid heavy on my, on my identity this year of, well, I did the things.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:16

Don't I get the stuff?

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:18

And the challenge, the hard challenge, the hard theology that I'm saying is that when you place that stagnation, that status, resting is not resting in Christ.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:31

It's not resting in the gospel.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:33

It's not resting that our future home is off this earth.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:35

It's not resting in the fact that God is the source of all that which is good and holy and true, and that we understand and that this created world exists by his continual will.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:45

It's existing in a status of I did the thing.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:50

I am the achievement.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:51

I have.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:52

I am not resting because I am thankful that God has given me rest.

Forrest Cooper: 00:29:57

I am resting because I have arrived.

Forrest Cooper: 00:30:00

And that's then we usually get humbled pretty hard after that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:30:04

So if you're putting your rest in God, and if you're putting your rest in the gospel, if you're putting your rest in his truth, that is not what we're, that is not what I'm criticizing.

Forrest Cooper: 00:30:14

I'm to being as specific as possible what I mean by this.

Forrest Cooper: 00:30:19

We are either in pursuit of the good or we are resting in our own self righteousness.

Will Spencer: 00:30:26

Mm, great.

Will Spencer: 00:30:27

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 00:30:28

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 00:30:30

And the important thing is to be able to hold this, this not resting in our own self righteousness, to be able to hold it without simultaneously falling into the attitude that God might be saying, what have you done for me lately?

Will Spencer: 00:30:48

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:30:49

Because you can imagine that it would be easy to say, well, I don't want to rest in my own righteousness.

Will Spencer: 00:30:54

And my performance on earth as a man is constantly being challenged.

Will Spencer: 00:30:59

And if I'm meant to serve God, I don't want to put God into a place where it's like, great, what have you done for me lately?

Will Spencer: 00:31:05

Because a lot of men would get there into that resentful place at the burden placed on them, I guess, by the curse of original sin to constantly be laboring the sweat of your brow.

Will Spencer: 00:31:16

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:31:16

And so there's a component of that maybe taking on that mantle consciously.

Will Spencer: 00:31:23

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:31:24

And say, this is my response to Adam's curse as a man is that I will have to labor for a lifetime, right up until and maybe the rejection of that curse, the burden of that curse is what creates that complacency.

Will Spencer: 00:31:37

Because he could probably make the case.

Will Spencer: 00:31:38

It was Adam's complacency that led Eve to get deceived.

Will Spencer: 00:31:41

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 00:31:43

You could make that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:31:44

I think you could make that argument, and I'm not.

Forrest Cooper: 00:31:46

We wouldn't be original in saying that Adam's.

Forrest Cooper: 00:31:48

One of Adam's first sins was that he said, I'm not going to.

Forrest Cooper: 00:31:51

I'm just going to let see how this plays out.

Will Spencer: 00:31:54

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:31:56

Yeah, I reflect on that.

Will Spencer: 00:31:59

I don't think that there's any clues given, well, at least so far as I know in the text, as what Adam's thought process was at the time.

Will Spencer: 00:32:07

I think it's a little bit like a Rorschach test.

Will Spencer: 00:32:09

I've looked into that in various moments and seen my own mind reflected in various ways.

Will Spencer: 00:32:15

So I think that's probably the purpose of why this reasoning was left out.

Forrest Cooper: 00:32:18

Yeah, I mean, I suppose one day we'll get to ask Moses, but I'm not even sure.

Forrest Cooper: 00:32:24

I mean, it'll be.

Forrest Cooper: 00:32:24

It'll be relevant for the glory of God, for sure.

Will Spencer: 00:32:27

Yes, exactly.

Forrest Cooper: 00:32:28

It's not today.

Will Spencer: 00:32:30

So we've defined.

Will Spencer: 00:32:31

Yes.

Will Spencer: 00:32:32

So we've defined.

Will Spencer: 00:32:33

So we've defined good.

Will Spencer: 00:32:34

Like, because the question is, can a weak man be good?

Will Spencer: 00:32:37

And we've defined good, which is the constant.

Will Spencer: 00:32:40

The constant pursuit of, say, taking the next hill to put it in a frame.

Will Spencer: 00:32:45

So.

Will Spencer: 00:32:45

So let's say.

Will Spencer: 00:32:46

So another question is, let's define weak.

Will Spencer: 00:32:49

And I think.

Will Spencer: 00:32:49

I think the definition of the word good in this way almost clarifies the definition of weak by default.

Forrest Cooper: 00:32:56

Yeah, I think you're right.

Forrest Cooper: 00:32:58

There is that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:32:59

Well, we understand what is evil by seeking what is good.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:03

You've got the old metaphor of how do people figure out counterfeit money?

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:07

They know what real money looks like, but let's find a better version of describing it, because I think weakness, I don't even think it's for expediency.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:19

Weakness is the right point, but the length of it is more of that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:25

Resting in weakness, like not resting in weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:29

Basking in weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:31

Exchanging the good for what is evil.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:37

Weakness in its fundamental core is incapability.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:43

You can't lift it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:44

You can't do it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:48

Or choosing morally weak is choosing to do what is wrong.

Forrest Cooper: 00:33:54

And so in this case, I would describe weakness as a lack of capacity with a measure of intention.

Will Spencer: 00:34:02

Okay.

Will Spencer: 00:34:03

Yes, I was going to say there's a consciously chosen.

Will Spencer: 00:34:09

Is it abdication, like weaknesses, is abdication of capability leading to complacency?

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:20

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:20

Or even so, I think there's actually a convenient way of looking at it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:26

So we have inherent weakness that you may not be aware of, but once it's drawn, once your attention is made about that, once you're made conscious of that, what do you choose?

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:38

Do you choose to allow that weakness to persist in and essentially gain some mastery over you, or are you disciplining yourself against it?

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:48

I think.

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:48

And so when I.

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:49

When I.

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:50

When in this.

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:51

In the way that I would want weakness to be understood in the.

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:53

In the.

Forrest Cooper: 00:34:53

In the way that we're talking about it now, is that by saying the word weak, I'm identifying a concept which means if someone's listening, they have there, then they have things in themselves that they consider strong or weak.

Forrest Cooper: 00:35:06

And then that weakness, by identifying it, is.

Forrest Cooper: 00:35:10

Is that something that I'm going to maintain or is that something that I'm going to improve, which then leads back to goodness?

Will Spencer: 00:35:20

Yes.

Will Spencer: 00:35:20

Okay.

Will Spencer: 00:35:21

So it's.

Will Spencer: 00:35:22

Weakness is not an area of unknown incapacity.

Will Spencer: 00:35:30

So if I don't know how much I can overhead press and say it's like, 25 pounds, the weakness is not necessarily.

Will Spencer: 00:35:39

Well, that's not really a whole lot.

Will Spencer: 00:35:41

So let's just say there's no objective standard.

Will Spencer: 00:35:44

If I discover my own incapacity in a particular way, the weakness is not the incapacity but the conscious choice not to address it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:35:55

If I don't know what an overhead press is, how can I be judged by it?

Will Spencer: 00:35:59

Exactly.

Will Spencer: 00:35:59

That's a.

Will Spencer: 00:36:00

That's a better.

Will Spencer: 00:36:00

That's a better definition.

Will Spencer: 00:36:01

Yes, because we all have blind spots.

Will Spencer: 00:36:03

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:05

But the reality that we live in by what is.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:11

What's.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:11

What's the.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:11

What's the theological term?

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:15

Common grace.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:16

Is that the right one, or is it a general revelation?

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:19

A general revelation, like, living in this world, um, does.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:23

Like.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:23

Does show us our weaknesses.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:25

You.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:26

You don't, you may not know what an overhead press is, but when you have to lift something over your head.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:31

Yeah, you know what that is.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:33

And if you are, let's just say you work in.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:37

We'll go back to a military example.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:39

Um, before you join the military, you may not know that part of your grading system will be based on push ups, and it changes depending on whatever the military is, whatever part of the military you're in and whatever it is.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:50

But.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:50

So if you don't know what a pushup is and you're not in the military.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:53

It doesn't matter.

Forrest Cooper: 00:36:54

But if you're in the military and you don't know how to do a push up, there's something wrong there.

Will Spencer: 00:37:00

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:00

And now that's, you know, there's not only is there something wrong there, uh, front leaning rest or whatever you want to call it in today's jargon, but if you.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:07

If you don't know what it is, then you will be shown what it is.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:10

But then if you continue to not know how to do it, that is intentional weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:15

That is choosing weakness over strength.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:17

And so each of us has in our lives responsibilities, like, whether it's paying the bills, taking care of my family, cutting the lumber for the winter, and all of the taking, lifting my.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:29

I don't have a child.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:30

I don't have any kids right now, but, like, being able to carry my child or these issues that are.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:35

That we're faced with purely with the struggle that came from that was a result of Adam's sin, we are going to be made aware of those.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:43

The intentional blindness is that weakness that I would want to address is the intentional choosing to bask in this sort of.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:50

Well, God's grace is everywhere, and so I don't have to do anything.

Forrest Cooper: 00:37:54

In fact, I just get to mope around and be depressed, and that's me talking to myself.

Will Spencer: 00:38:01

No, I completely get it.

Will Spencer: 00:38:02

Yes.

Will Spencer: 00:38:07

So, let's see.

Will Spencer: 00:38:08

This ties into a couple conversations that I was having, that I was having this weekend, this past weekend, with some men that I met about the difference between guilt and shame.

Will Spencer: 00:38:20

Guilt is about what you've done.

Will Spencer: 00:38:22

Shame is about what you are.

Will Spencer: 00:38:24

And we were talking about how to apply this in groups of men, in brotherhoods, enforcing agreed upon standards.

Will Spencer: 00:38:34

So you come into a group of men, 510 guys, doesn't matter.

Will Spencer: 00:38:37

And there's a set of standards that you all agree to.

Will Spencer: 00:38:40

And if you, as a man, fail to perform to those standards, say, the first few times, you guilt them.

Will Spencer: 00:38:47

Like, what are you doing?

Will Spencer: 00:38:48

What are you doing?

Will Spencer: 00:38:49

Do it better.

Will Spencer: 00:38:50

Do it better.

Will Spencer: 00:38:51

But then at the end of that road, if the man continues to choose incapacity, continues to choose weakness, then that's when shame kicks in.

Will Spencer: 00:39:00

Was like, what's wrong with you?

Will Spencer: 00:39:01

There is something, and that's shame, right?

Will Spencer: 00:39:06

They need to be.

Will Spencer: 00:39:06

It needs to apply.

Will Spencer: 00:39:07

Be applied very judiciously at the end of a long road of guilting through behavior.

Will Spencer: 00:39:13

But then it's like, if you just can't.

Will Spencer: 00:39:14

I've shown you how to do a push up five times, and you still haven't been able to do it.

Will Spencer: 00:39:19

Is there something wrong with you, son?

Will Spencer: 00:39:21

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:39:22

There's something.

Will Spencer: 00:39:22

That's a state of.

Will Spencer: 00:39:23

That's a state of being.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:24

So you described both guilt and shame as a verb, something that's being done.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:29

Like, I am guilty.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:30

I'm essentially identifying that you have the noun guilt.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:34

You have the.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:35

And that you are guilty for not doing the thing, or you are guilty for doing the thing.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:40

And then there's shame.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:42

And shame is closer.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:46

I am placing shame, or you are acting shamefully.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:50

Maybe.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:51

It is a tricky distinction, too, because I've also.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:55

My wife has helped me with this one because I've.

Forrest Cooper: 00:39:59

I've been like.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:00

I generally have been a melancholy person, which actually sometimes, frequently delves into a sinful behavior of depression.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:08

It's not.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:09

You know, and I.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:10

And I'm not saying that it's universal.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:12

There are multiple factors that can.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:13

That can participate.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:14

But she tells me is, like, you did something wrong.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:17

You feel guilt, but you need to, like, give that up before God.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:22

You need to give up your guilt because you're currently living in your guiltiness and sort of stewing in that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:29

And then.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:30

And so these are.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:31

It's a hard one.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:32

That's a really, like, guilt and shame are really tricky, but they are certainly relevant topics to our day.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:38

Like, how do I shame you into doing what is right?

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:42

Or does that work?

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:43

Or is it the right answer?

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:44

Because shame.

Forrest Cooper: 00:40:45

Guilt, I think from a christian sense, they imply that if you change your ways, you repent from it, then you will no longer be shameful for it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:41:00

It's this forgiveness, right?

Will Spencer: 00:41:02

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 00:41:03

Recently reading through Corinthians.

Forrest Cooper: 00:41:04

And so it makes a lot of sense.

Will Spencer: 00:41:07

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 00:41:07

So this is.

Will Spencer: 00:41:08

We're talking about the difference between things that are objectively sinful.

Will Spencer: 00:41:13

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:41:14

Versus things that are outside of the bounds of accepted.

Will Spencer: 00:41:17

Between an honor group of Mendez.

Will Spencer: 00:41:19

And there's a difference between the two.

Will Spencer: 00:41:21

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:41:21

There are things that the honor group of men can say that we won't do because they are sinful, but then there are relative cultural things that the men have agreed upon, in a word, of honor amongst themselves.

Will Spencer: 00:41:33

And so I think we're talking about two different things.

Will Spencer: 00:41:37

So we can feel, I guess we would have to identify within ourselves as men where the guilt is coming from and where the shame is coming from.

Will Spencer: 00:41:45

Is it because we've done things that are sinful or done things that are, we'll say, not necessarily vulnerable to our friends?

Will Spencer: 00:41:53

Dishonorable?

Will Spencer: 00:41:54

Yeah, I think so.

Will Spencer: 00:41:55

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 00:41:55

And that would be the question.

Will Spencer: 00:41:56

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:41:57

Because something that's dishonorable that's a different between brothers.

Will Spencer: 00:42:02

That's something that needs to be addressed differently than something that is sinful.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:07

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:07

So I think we could actually clean up our language a little bit here by saying guilt is a state of being before justice.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:17

You are guilty of a crime.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:18

You are guilty of a sin.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:20

We are guilty of rebellion, whatever.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:24

And that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:24

And so guilt is more of a status.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:26

It's more of like, well, is he guilty of this?

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:29

Yes or no?

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:30

But we have turned that a little bit into a verb by guilting somebody, by accusing them of doing the thing.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:37

But really what they're feeling is shame.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:40

And shame.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:42

Like, the feeling is shame and shame.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:45

We are.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:45

If I'm shaming you, I want you to feel shame.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:48

I want you to be ashamed of what you've done.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:51

I think to clean it up a little bit.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:54

I think guilt should be restrained to a little bit of.

Forrest Cooper: 00:42:58

More of a justice oriented conversation.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:02

Are you guilty of the crime?

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:03

Are you guilty of the sin?

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:04

Are you guilty of lying to your brother?

Will Spencer: 00:43:06

The thing that you did?

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:08

And then shame is how shame is.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:11

Some is not only an emotional state, but it's something that we may do to one another.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:16

But the purpose of shame exists within a system of honor.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:20

And honor is something that, like you, are you not?

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:24

Let's say you and I have a rule.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:27

I'll even.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:27

I'll use a personal example.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:29

At a time in my life when I was drinking too much, my friends came to me and said, what you're doing is wrong.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:34

And they shamed me into that, because what I was doing was shameful.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:39

But it was also dishonorable because this group of men got together to be as men, united and stronger in Christ.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:49

We had sort of an implicit and an explicit intention of meeting together.

Forrest Cooper: 00:43:54

And I was being dishonorable to that group because I was not sober, because I would do these things, because I would drink, because I would spend time with my friend, playing video games and drinking too much.

Forrest Cooper: 00:44:05

And so not to be too loose in confessions here, but the shame of that is that the shame I felt was that I was not living up to who I was claiming to be amongst my friend, but I was also dishonoring them by not living up to our agreed upon moral standards.

Will Spencer: 00:44:28

Okay, so in that sense, yes, both guilt and shame are appropriate.

Will Spencer: 00:44:34

Yes.

Will Spencer: 00:44:34

So I can get down with that definition.

Will Spencer: 00:44:38

I usually tell men that guilt adheres to the doing and shame adheres to the being.

Will Spencer: 00:44:43

And both of them can be righteously or unrighteously applied.

Forrest Cooper: 00:44:47

Yes, absolutely.

Forrest Cooper: 00:44:48

You can falsely shame people into believing certain things, which would be like peer pressure.

Forrest Cooper: 00:44:56

You can accuse somebody of a crime that they did not do, or you can hold somebody to an honor standard that they're not a part of.

Forrest Cooper: 00:45:06

So those are all different ways to betray the thing.

Will Spencer: 00:45:08

Yes, I think you can.

Will Spencer: 00:45:10

Can you hold someone to an honor standard?

Will Spencer: 00:45:12

I guess you could try.

Will Spencer: 00:45:13

Yeah, you could.

Will Spencer: 00:45:14

And that's bullying, right?

Will Spencer: 00:45:15

Bullying is like, I have this honor standard.

Will Spencer: 00:45:18

I think we see a lot of this today.

Will Spencer: 00:45:19

I have this honor standard that I hold as a mandeh.

Will Spencer: 00:45:22

And because you are also a man, you need to agree with my honor standards.

Will Spencer: 00:45:26

Like, I haven't agreed to your honor standard.

Will Spencer: 00:45:28

Just because you're a man doesn't mean that I have to agree with you.

Will Spencer: 00:45:30

And we see a lot of that, particularly in the public dialogue about masculinity, that if you're not 6ft tall, alpha six figures, that you're somehow beta, weak, awful, and this terrible, terrible thing.

Will Spencer: 00:45:41

It's like, I haven't actually agreed to your honor standard of what your values are, Mister Alpha influencer.

Will Spencer: 00:45:46

And so that's where bullying comes.

Will Spencer: 00:45:48

It's like, well, if you don't agree, you're just, you're just gay, bro.

Will Spencer: 00:45:51

Stuff like that.

Will Spencer: 00:45:52

And that's attempting to force an honor standard on men they haven't agreed to.

Forrest Cooper: 00:45:56

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 00:45:57

And there is a, the level of agreement is not universal.

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:02

Like, I don't, I don't, I'm not so legalistic in the, in the sense that every person has to explicitly sign a contract into being a man.

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:10

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:11

That is the, there's no explicit contract.

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:14

There is, there is no explicit statement of like, okay, cool.

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:17

igned the manosphere document: 17935

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:25

You know what I mean?

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:25

And so, and here the council accuses you of not holding up to your standard.

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:30

But there is still a standard between men, which is still, I still think goes back to that idea of common grace where we can look at somebody that is, say, not a Christian and say, what you're doing is wrong, and I can appeal to the argument.

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:45

And so then you have a separation between logic and rhetoric.

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:49

Rhetoric being a method of trying to convince somebody of something for good and for ill good.

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:54

Logic with bad rhetoric is hard to function.

Forrest Cooper: 00:46:57

But then it also is a statement of being like, if I am saying a personal example of this, again, would be in Afghanistan, I learned pashtun and we were engaging in, we were dealing with high value target capture raids and high value, these kind of cool special operation stuff is what the Internet would like to think.

Will Spencer: 00:47:21

But call of duty, modern, modern warfare was basically your life.

Forrest Cooper: 00:47:25

It was, yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 00:47:26

Well, actually, funny thing.

Forrest Cooper: 00:47:27

Just kidding.

Will Spencer: 00:47:29

I was going to send you a video of modern warfare three and be like, I'm going to tell my friends, this is, this is Forrest.

Forrest Cooper: 00:47:36

Oh, no, please don't.

Will Spencer: 00:47:39

Okay.

Forrest Cooper: 00:47:39

Or do, or do, but just, just don't use my last name.

Will Spencer: 00:47:43

Okay?

Forrest Cooper: 00:47:43

Make it, make it mysterious.

Forrest Cooper: 00:47:45

Make it Balthazar gracian.

Forrest Cooper: 00:47:46

Mysterious.

Forrest Cooper: 00:47:47

But the point, the joke being, but I could still speak to a man from a different culture in his own language and say, if I were to go to, I kind of discovered this in a roundabout way.

Forrest Cooper: 00:48:02

I could go to him and say, what you're doing is wrong, and it would mean nothing to him.

Forrest Cooper: 00:48:06

But if I went to him and said, what you're doing is dishonorable, then he would think about it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:48:13

It was, some of it was in a conversation with an interpreter or some, it was in conversation with a detainee or something like that.

Forrest Cooper: 00:48:20

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 00:48:21

And so there is a little bit, there is a little bit of a universal standard.

Forrest Cooper: 00:48:25

We're just not very good at identifying it, but we're still in pursuit of it.

Will Spencer: 00:48:29

When you say we, do you mean men in general?

Will Spencer: 00:48:32

Do you mean christian men?

Will Spencer: 00:48:33

Because the question that this is bringing up for me is you mentioned that we can be forgiven for not knowing the things we don't know.

Will Spencer: 00:48:44

If I don't know how to do a pushup, I can't be blamed for my weakness in doing push ups.

Will Spencer: 00:48:49

But as soon as I become aware that I don't know how to do a pushup, then I become accountable for gaining strength in doing push ups, potentially, if that's an aspect of our honor group.

Will Spencer: 00:49:02

So I think what's happening right now is that Christians in particular are being introduced in very rapid fashion, as in the past three years, to all the areas of their enculturated weakness and are suddenly becoming accountable for a whole lot of things that they weren't taught to be accountable for.

Will Spencer: 00:49:22

Now, we can argue whether they were or were not accountable for those things during those times, but let's just say for the sake of argument that they weren't ever made aware of being held accountable to these things.

Will Spencer: 00:49:32

So now theyre being shown exactly how weak they are in body, mind, spirit, congregation, and everything.

Will Spencer: 00:49:38

And theyre reacting to suddenly being held accountable in all these ways.

Will Spencer: 00:49:42

Like, nobody told me that I had to be strong.

Will Spencer: 00:49:45

What are you talking about?

Will Spencer: 00:49:47

And so maybe were seeing some of that going on, that response to the things that they didnt know.

Will Spencer: 00:49:53

They didnt know and they dont want to know them.

Forrest Cooper: 00:49:55

Yeah, I think theres some of that that does make sense.

Forrest Cooper: 00:49:59

Like that is, that is, I think that is a little bit of, there's a difference here.

Forrest Cooper: 00:50:02

Let's, let's actually help.

Forrest Cooper: 00:50:05

I was thinking about this before we were gonna, before we jumped on the show.

Forrest Cooper: 00:50:08

And part of the conviction is, is part of the conviction falls back into even some of the writings of proverbs where Solomon says, no man knows the heart, only God, man only.

Forrest Cooper: 00:50:21

And David said some of the same things of like, only God knows your heart and, and only, and only.

Forrest Cooper: 00:50:28

And like no other man really knows what's at the core of who you are.

Forrest Cooper: 00:50:32

Really.

Forrest Cooper: 00:50:32

If you, if you get deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep down, ultimately, that is between you and God.

Forrest Cooper: 00:50:38

And for the, for the church and for men in the church, some people are, let's, let's use the, let's, let's stay within the confines of the church at this time.

Forrest Cooper: 00:50:50

Some men are faced with their weakness, and, and that internal dialogue might very well looks something like, well, I don't like this, and I'm going to find a way to justify my way out of it, or I'm recognizing that there's a deficiency and I'm struggling with how to handle it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:06

So there is a bit of a difference.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:10

And this is where I come without judgment on the factor, because I have to submit before the Old Testament and say, no man knows another man's heart.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:18

But if I know you and I have a relationship with you, I can say, will you say this?

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:26

But you are doing this.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:27

You say that you should, but you are doing this, or I am coming to you saying you should be strong in this area, but you are choosing weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:35

If your response is, well, I am justified in my weakness because I dont have to do anything.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:39

Then weve already answered the question.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:41

The issue is rebellion and a lack of humility.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:45

In fact, you could almost go so far as to say its an iron law of woke projection applied in the church where I am convicting you.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:54

I am saying men should be strong and your response is, no, men should be humble.

Forrest Cooper: 00:51:58

And then what reality is saying is that you're trying to argue to me that I'm not being humble, but what it's revealing to the world is you have a lack of humility in your own heart.

Forrest Cooper: 00:52:09

And I don't want that to be a cudgel of an argument saying every single response is some sort of projection, but it is something that's worth investigating in our own selves, especially before the Lord in prayer and petition and asking for forgiveness to say Lord or to myself, it's like if I am being convicted of something that I did not know I was doing, and I continue to live in that, am I rejecting the conviction because maybe the conviction is illegitimate?

Forrest Cooper: 00:52:43

Or am I choosing to live in my sin by justifying it through a.

Will Spencer: 00:52:50

False humility and even using scripture to justify the false humility?

Will Spencer: 00:52:56

And that's the dangerous part.

Will Spencer: 00:52:58

Like, I don't mind a man.

Will Spencer: 00:53:00

I mean, I do, but for the purpose.

Will Spencer: 00:53:02

You'll understand in a minute if a man just says, yeah, I know I'm accountable for that, and I don't want to do it, it's like, all right, thank you for owning that right.

Will Spencer: 00:53:10

But when a man throws back a scripture verse, like, well, physical training is of some value, it's like, just own it.

Will Spencer: 00:53:16

And that's the thing, is that you get people hiding behind the word of God to justify their own weakness, and that's pietism.

Will Spencer: 00:53:24

Like, well, I'm staying weak because that's what we're commanded to do.

Will Spencer: 00:53:27

It's like, I don't think that that's true.

Will Spencer: 00:53:29

And that's the part that gets really frustrating, especially to me.

Will Spencer: 00:53:33

And not just in a.

Will Spencer: 00:53:35

Not just in a dialectical level on Twitter, but because I see the way that this shows up in mens lives.

Will Spencer: 00:53:41

I see the pain that it causes them, and I see the way that they build defenses or their pastors or fathers or whoever, generations of pastors, so far as I can tell, have built these enormous walls of defenses of scripture verses between men in their own innate capacity.

Will Spencer: 00:53:59

So theyve been enculturated by scripture to be weak.

Will Spencer: 00:54:02

And, like, I don't mind helping men break that down, but it's frustrating to see it on a societal level, especially knowing where we've gotten to in America right now.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:13

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:14

And ultimately, you can blame everything you want on culture.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:18

You can blame everything you want on oppression and culture and the wickedness that's been done to you, but that is not an equivocation or.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:26

It's not an equivocation.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:27

That is not justification for living in that lifestyle once you know about it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:33

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:33

And so, like, and I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:35

I don't even think anyone.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:37

I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:37

I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:38

It's not like we're expecting.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:40

It's not.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:40

We.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:41

It's not like the expectation or the conviction is to, okay, well, you know, you need to be able to bench press 300 by Friday.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:47

It's that, you know, it's, it's.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:50

You know what I mean?

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:51

Like, oh, I'm not going to reach it.

Will Spencer: 00:54:53

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 00:54:54

But rather it's sort of like, hey, it's, I think in genuine conversation between men, it's saying, I don't think you're living up to the standard that you should be, and I think you're capable of it, which is a very hard thing to hear because being told that you have potential is a very, very hard thing to hear because it also implies you're not living up to that potential.

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:18

It's like, ah, that stings.

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:20

Is the sting genuine?

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:22

And we know and we can learn that it does come with a kindness as well.

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:29

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:29

So a good leader takes one of his subordinates and says, you're doing this.

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:36

I think you should be doing this.

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:38

And then here's how I think you can do it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:40

And then that person, then their subordinate goes out and does it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:43

The subordinate deserves, in some sense, some sort of recognition.

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:48

He's not now the.

Forrest Cooper: 00:55:49

He's not now the kingpin of the arena, but he is somebody who, like that leader, will, on the one hand, pick up, grab the person who is not living up to his potential, try to articulate and identify it and convey that, and then reward them in some sense.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:06

Whether it's simply, look, I see what you're doing, and it's encouraging.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:11

Thank you very much.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:13

You're working in the right direction.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:15

I want to encourage this activity.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:18

And so you have this.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:22

It's so simple, but it's so thorough.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:24

In our lives of between men, we will see each other acting in ways that they shouldn't convict them of it.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:32

And then if they follow through, like Paul says, in one and two corinthians, then they're welcome back into the fold.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:40

And we are thankful before God for his mercies that extend forever, that you have left your life of sin and entered into a life of holiness.

Forrest Cooper: 00:56:50

Well, a life of goodness in this sense.

Will Spencer: 00:58:09

So I love all of that.

Will Spencer: 00:58:11

And I want to correct one word that I think gets to the root of everything we're talking about.

Will Spencer: 00:58:15

You use the word leader, but ultimately the word that should be there is father.

Will Spencer: 00:58:21

Right?

Will Spencer: 00:58:21

And I think that's what people are feeling is that I think I am also not a father.

Will Spencer: 00:58:25

But it seems pretty straightforward and apparent to me.

Will Spencer: 00:58:28

And I can refer people to books like wild at heart and stuff like that, which gets into this in particular, that it is a father's job to help his son answer the question, do I have what it takes.

Will Spencer: 00:58:40

And so now that we've had generations of fatherlessness where fathers have not helped their boys becoming men, discover that they have what it takes, that now men are looking to leaders like, please help me find out whether I have what it takes.

Will Spencer: 00:58:56

Right.

Will Spencer: 00:58:57

And because a father never did it.

Will Spencer: 00:59:00

And that's what you said about how convicting and how much it stings to be told that we have potential and that we're not living up to it, because the thing that's implied in that is that it stings for adults because no one's ever told us that before.

Will Spencer: 00:59:14

And when we hear it for the first time, which as adults, which shouldn't be the first time we hear it, that's the part we're like, yeah, I know that's true.

Will Spencer: 00:59:22

And what stings on the back half of that is like, why has no one ever said this to me before?

Forrest Cooper: 00:59:28

Mm hmm.

Forrest Cooper: 00:59:29

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 00:59:30

And resentment can set foot and take control of your life and cause more pain quickly.

Will Spencer: 00:59:39

Yeah, yeah.

Will Spencer: 00:59:41

And it takes over men very quickly to watch because it shows up.

Will Spencer: 00:59:50

And I think this is ultimately the appeal of the so called, like, red pill.

Will Spencer: 00:59:54

If I'm going to kick this, I'm going to try this on.

Will Spencer: 00:59:57

I'm going to try this on.

Forrest Cooper: 00:59:59

I think do a thought experiment.

Will Spencer: 01:00:01

Let's do a thought experiment.

Will Spencer: 01:00:02

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 01:00:04

How do I know what I think until I hear myself say it?

Will Spencer: 01:00:08

So I'm going to try and see if this works.

Will Spencer: 01:00:12

I think what's so appealing, what hooks menta into the red pill as an ideology is that they've never had a father say to them, I see your potential.

Will Spencer: 01:00:25

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:00:26

And so there's a stinging conviction with that, a longing, a pain, and then an anger at not having heard that that not only extends to their father, but they also see the impact of women feminism, particularly through that.

Will Spencer: 01:00:45

And so that anger doesn't have any place to go.

Will Spencer: 01:00:49

So it expresses itself outwards towards women.

Will Spencer: 01:00:53

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:00:53

Because turning it towards dad, maybe, or turning it towards the self for one's own failing is too hard, and so it gets turned towards women collectively.

Will Spencer: 01:01:05

And so the red.

Will Spencer: 01:01:06

And the red pill is a mischanneling of energy towards women who don't deserve it.

Will Spencer: 01:01:12

Now, certainly there's plenty to criticize with feminism, but to make the hatred of feminism your lifestyle, to make it the sole outlet of your anger towards being, I think, is what hooks men.

Will Spencer: 01:01:26

I think I'm going to go with that.

Will Spencer: 01:01:28

I think you get it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:01:30

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 01:01:30

Can you help me a little bit?

Forrest Cooper: 01:01:32

Because the term red pill is a little bit broad right now.

Forrest Cooper: 01:01:36

And what do you.

Forrest Cooper: 01:01:37

So when you're.

Forrest Cooper: 01:01:38

When you describe the red pill, what do you mean by that?

Will Spencer: 01:01:42

So in this sense, I mean, the red pill is intersexual dynamics, sexual market value, not the red pill in the matrix, perceiving the way that society, geopolitics, etcetera, really works.

Will Spencer: 01:01:54

I mean, strictly in terms of intersexual dynamics, the expectations between men and women for dating, romance, you know, providership, beauty, all those different aspects.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:06

Okay, so what is the core?

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:11

What would you describe the core?

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:13

Worldview, truth statements that define the red pill.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:16

Is it that the world that we live in is out of balance because women have more power than men?

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:23

Or that the way to, the only way?

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:25

Or is it that the end goal of man is to spread his seed?

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:31

Is it, is it the like, what is.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:33

What is like?

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:33

Because that is a problem that I have with the.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:35

The.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:36

What you'd consider the kind of the red pill world is its theology is very muddy.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:41

Its philosophy is.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:43

It's.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:43

It's sort of very reactionary in some senses, but it's also.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:48

It's also very cynical.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:49

And, and it's.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:50

It's.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:51

It's sort of.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:51

It's.

Forrest Cooper: 01:02:52

And then finally, the combination of those two is it's reacting to abuses that may or may not have happened, and then it's identifying those abuses in a social setting, and then it's providing an ethic which is something akin to hedonism.

Will Spencer: 01:03:09

Yes, correct.

Will Spencer: 01:03:11

Agree.

Forrest Cooper: 01:03:11

Okay.

Will Spencer: 01:03:12

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 01:03:12

The theology of the red pills, there isn't one.

Will Spencer: 01:03:15

It's purely materialist.

Will Spencer: 01:03:16

It's reactionary.

Will Spencer: 01:03:18

It's reactionary to the marxist theology of feminism, but flipped the other way towards chauvinism.

Will Spencer: 01:03:25

I like that.

Will Spencer: 01:03:26

Terminal.

Will Spencer: 01:03:27

And unless checked by the reality of christian patriarchy, christian masculinity, unless channeled in that direction, the red pill ideology becomes nietzscheanism.

Will Spencer: 01:03:41

Great man theology, where you are the master of the universe, that's ultimately where that leads.

Will Spencer: 01:03:48

It leads to things like polygyny, multiple wives, you know, spreading your seed, et cetera, because that's the materialistic response.

Will Spencer: 01:03:57

So that's the revolutionary wheel going around and around, right?

Will Spencer: 01:04:00

Like, men oppress women, women get fed up and oppress men, and back and forth.

Will Spencer: 01:04:04

That's the revolutionary wheel turning.

Will Spencer: 01:04:06

The only way out of that is Christianity, which is why the red pill guys don't like Christianity.

Forrest Cooper: 01:04:12

Yeah, I still will.

Forrest Cooper: 01:04:14

I want to extend some grace in this idea personally towards what people refer to as the red pill, because it being so broad has been difficult.

Forrest Cooper: 01:04:25

It creates, it's a difficult place to identify.

Forrest Cooper: 01:04:29

I think what would be more useful, then, is identifying specific traits that are common within what we call the red pill community.

Forrest Cooper: 01:04:38

Because even if we talk about the manosphere, that is such a broad term.

Forrest Cooper: 01:04:42

Now, I don't really know about a council of guys who determine who is in and who is out, and if it doesn't matter, okay, there's a.

Will Spencer: 01:04:52

There's a president, and he kicked me out of the manosphere.

Forrest Cooper: 01:04:55

Well, he never gave.

Forrest Cooper: 01:04:56

He never gave me a call, so he wouldn't.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:02

Oh, that's actually.

Will Spencer: 01:05:03

That's actually true.

Will Spencer: 01:05:04

That's actually.

Will Spencer: 01:05:05

That's actually true.

Will Spencer: 01:05:06

I'm not making that up.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:08

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 01:05:09

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:10

So.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:11

So, um.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:12

I tend to spend a lot of time in gun culture, and.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:15

And this is a topic that happens within american gun culture, is that there's never what feels like.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:25

It's not actually the case, but it's what feels like this never ending battle.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:29

But there is some part that gun culture is perpetually at war with itself.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:34

And that I'll agree.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:36

I've made that statement publicly.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:38

I will stand behind it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:39

But it's dealing with parts of the human condition, which is who's in the group, who's out of the group.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:46

What are the in group rules?

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:48

Are there in group versus out group rules?

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:49

What are the things that we hold to be right and true and good?

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:52

What are our belief systems and gun culture?

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:54

You would think, at its core, would be simply, well, the right to own guns and self defense.

Forrest Cooper: 01:05:59

But if you dig deeper, gun culture is a lot more about pursuing some semblance of character and capability.

Forrest Cooper: 01:06:07

It's that I don't just own a gun because I'm worried that somebody's going to kick down my door, because, quite frankly, I'm not.

Forrest Cooper: 01:06:15

I'm not worried that someone's going to come kick down my door, because whether I want to use a statistical argument or a skills, capability based argument, it's really not the thing that I'm concerned about.

Will Spencer: 01:06:26

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 01:06:26

And so.

Forrest Cooper: 01:06:27

But what I am concerned about is this soft tyranny of low expectations and weakness in men and women and our population into complacency that results in a rejection of responsibility in favor of a godhood seated in government, where the God of our country, the God of our community, is not the God who created this world, but the government.

Forrest Cooper: 01:06:56

And so I see that the gun culture is fundamentally a rejection, in this sense, of the worship of the state, because we have rights, rights to bear arms.

Forrest Cooper: 01:07:08

And by expressing that right and by participating in it, we hold the great Leviathan at bay, even if we are not in the streets with rifles.

Forrest Cooper: 01:07:18

So, so, but that what the gun culture, and I think I see this in the manosphere as well, struggles with, is x person a good representation of our group?

Forrest Cooper: 01:07:31

And if you don't have a clean line, which gun culture and masculinity will never have a perfect line, I mean, with the exception of maybe biology, but you won't have a, you know, you won't have this, this clean line.

Forrest Cooper: 01:07:46

We are perpetually in struggle with it, not in a marxist or eternal revolution sense, but it's something that we all have to contend with.

Forrest Cooper: 01:07:56

My grandfather grew up hunting and was in multiple.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:00

He was in world War two in Korea, and he learned how to shoot, and he learned how to take care of his family, and then he passed that on to my dad.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:05

And then my grandfather got old and died, and then my dad passed on to me.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:09

And then I wouldn't, he didn't, but my father was never in the military, but he learned these things and he passed on values to me.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:14

And so, and he's not, he's not going to be alive forever.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:18

And then he passed some of those values on to me.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:21

And then I went into the military and I learned other things, and I have these values and I'm passing them on to somebody else.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:26

And as a result, there is no one man there like, no relation.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:31

But Jeff Cooper was a prominent writer in gun culture for many years in the late 19 hundreds.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:39

He passed away in: 2006

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:49

But that doesn't mean that we throw out everything that Jeff Cooper said.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:53

And masculinity is the same way.

Forrest Cooper: 01:08:58

The culture of the human condition, in its reflection to culture, reflects in the same way in mankind, especially in masculinity, because we do not know, we do not have an authoritative council, but we do have a question of what worldviews do we hold and where do we gain our values.

Forrest Cooper: 01:09:15

And so where the red pill community goes wrong, and I will argue what people were talking about, the red pill community goes wrong is it exchanges truth, for it exchanges the truth of one's identity in being created in God's image and designed to go live a certain way.

Forrest Cooper: 01:09:32

And it exchanges that for the experience of being a dominant male with a good job or a lot of money or a great body count, if that's what you want to use.

Forrest Cooper: 01:09:44

But, like, I don't think it takes a big intellect to see how shallow that really is.

Forrest Cooper: 01:09:50

It just, it's not I don't think it's a convincing argument.

Forrest Cooper: 01:09:53

I think it's easy to see because it's inherently nihilistic and self destructive.

Will Spencer: 01:09:59

Agree.

Will Spencer: 01:09:59

Agree.

Will Spencer: 01:10:00

It's interesting.

Will Spencer: 01:10:01

I think we've arrived at very similar conclusions coming through different doors, because I think there are a lot of parallels to, we'll call it masculinity culture versus gun culture, in that masculinity culture also rejects the state, but it perceives the state, I think, accurately, as a gynocracy.

Will Spencer: 01:10:19

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:10:19

Like, the socio cultural milieu let's say we find ourselves in is entirely driven by what I would say, masculinity culture would call the female imperative that women get to do whatever they want, right up to and including killing babies.

Will Spencer: 01:10:35

And men don't have anything that they can say about it.

Will Spencer: 01:10:38

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 01:10:38

And so.

Forrest Cooper: 01:10:39

And there is no shortage of evidence.

Forrest Cooper: 01:10:41

No shortage of evidence.

Will Spencer: 01:10:42

Correct.

Will Spencer: 01:10:43

And in the same way, within gun culture, people within gun culture will be reacting towards overreaches by the state.

Will Spencer: 01:10:50

It doesn't necessarily frame it in a gynecotic way, but it's looking at the same thing.

Will Spencer: 01:10:55

Like, we're talking two cultures looking at the same problem and seeing different things.

Will Spencer: 01:10:59

And so then the question that these two cultures are asking is, what is the proper response to that?

Will Spencer: 01:11:06

And I think what we have both seen, and I think we've both seen in our own ways and very much like a speck in your eye, plank in my eye kind of way.

Will Spencer: 01:11:18

Meaning these two cultures is like, oh, you're overreacting and becoming nihilist.

Will Spencer: 01:11:23

Oh, no, you're overreacting and becoming nihilist.

Will Spencer: 01:11:26

Not saying you and me, but these two cultures.

Will Spencer: 01:11:29

Because I look at gun culture and I'm like, wow, these guys really are substituting their firearm for a personality.

Will Spencer: 01:11:37

But within the masculinity dialogue, there's like, oh, you really are substituting your car for a personality, aren't you?

Will Spencer: 01:11:43

And ultimately without a faith direction.

Forrest Cooper: 01:11:46

Yeah, as long as we can understand that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:11:49

Sometimes people do that out of humor, right?

Will Spencer: 01:11:52

Yes, yes.

Will Spencer: 01:11:53

Of course.

Forrest Cooper: 01:11:55

There's the whole night vision nods thing.

Forrest Cooper: 01:11:57

Like, oh, literally makes it his personality.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:01

Like, yes, some people do it unironically, and some people do it because it's funny.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:07

It is hysterical, you know?

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:10

And it's like, I remember when I got my first set of personally owned night vision.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:14

It was like, this is the coolest thing ever.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:15

I've used them before professionally, but now they're mine and they're mine alone.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:19

It's like, you know, and if you look at my Instagram page.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:23

I'm wearing a lot of night vision.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:25

Yes, you do it well, but it's tough.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:28

But at least recognize that we're still on social media.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:32

Like, there is a little bit, like, if you come to me and say, hey, man, I think you are making this way too much of your identity, and you come to me as a friend, I would hope that I would respond well to that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:45

But it's, I think, within what we do see, what we are seeing in kind of the red pill gun culture thing is that we see it when people do that and it doesn't, and we don't think it's a good thing.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:57

And then.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:58

But we don't.

Will Spencer: 01:12:58

How.

Forrest Cooper: 01:12:59

We don't always have a mechanism for handling that because, you know, I don't know.

Forrest Cooper: 01:13:03

I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 01:13:04

I don't know everybody on Instagram.

Forrest Cooper: 01:13:06

I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 01:13:06

I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 01:13:06

I don't know the person behind every picture that I see.

Forrest Cooper: 01:13:10

And so, you know, I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 01:13:11

I don't really know.

Forrest Cooper: 01:13:12

But if I do know you and I do know that you're trying to make this too much of your identity, wouldn't it be my role and responsibility as a friend to be like, hey, Mandev, like, you're actually putting your identity in an object, not in.

Forrest Cooper: 01:13:25

Not in Christ, like, oh, yes, yes.

Will Spencer: 01:13:28

And to be fair, I follow a lot of the Goon culture Instagram pages, and I think they're hysterical, you know, and way, way, way early back when I started the renaissance of men Instagram account, there was an account.

Will Spencer: 01:13:41

There were a couple accounts that were kind of in goon culture.

Will Spencer: 01:13:44

Pacific Northwest guerrilla, PNW, guerrilla, like, guerrilla warfare guerrilla.

Will Spencer: 01:13:49

And he was really entertaining.

Will Spencer: 01:13:51

He was deep into, like, goon culture.

Will Spencer: 01:13:53

And then he kind of spiraled off into nietzscheanism.

Will Spencer: 01:13:57

And it was really sad and kind of frightening and disgusting to watch that happen.

Will Spencer: 01:14:01

As he kind of started, he had no place to put his identity other than violence, and it took him over.

Will Spencer: 01:14:08

And you've seen that, I'm sure.

Will Spencer: 01:14:09

It sounds.

Will Spencer: 01:14:10

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 01:14:10

So this is not stated entirely tongue in cheek, but with a salting of humor from my little ivory tower.

Forrest Cooper: 01:14:19

In gun culture, I am wit.

Forrest Cooper: 01:14:22

I am witnessing a paradigm shift, referring to Thomas Kuhn in how gun culture places its identity.

Forrest Cooper: 01:14:33

And so I grew up.

Forrest Cooper: 01:14:36

was in ranger battalion from: 2009

Forrest Cooper: 01:14:39

And at that point in time, the area I was in was very much so steeped in the new atheist ideology.

Forrest Cooper: 01:14:47

And I grew up in the nineties where at church, you learned arguments against atheism, or you learned this is kind of, these are hyper simplifications, but generalities for the sake of the conversation and what I'm with, what I'm seeing in gun culture right now, which is not of my own power, but is of glory to God and none other, that men are coming to the end of themselves and they are choosing either the gospel or nietzscheanhe, not even Nietzsche.

Forrest Cooper: 01:15:13

And, but like hyper nihilistic ends, like ends justify the means level violence.

Will Spencer: 01:15:17

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 01:15:18

And those two groups of people are not necessarily getting along very well.

Forrest Cooper: 01:15:21

And it's a microcosm and you have to have some observation of it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:15:25

And I do think that there's a massive overlap between gun culture and the manosphere or the masculinity conversation, which isn't a big surprise because 95% of gun culture is men, but they're, and they, and they have a lot of shared values and concerns that attach themselves.

Forrest Cooper: 01:15:41

And so what we're seeing at this time is as that new atheist sort of Daniel Dennett Dawkins, Sam Harris, Neil degrasse Tyson sort of bravado of atheism, loses its luster.

Forrest Cooper: 01:15:56

It also, it's not only losing its luster, it's losing its grip on people, because when it comes to the end questions, it doesn't seem to be capable of answering them very well and, or in a way that's fulfilling and that leaves the person with anything left to grasp onto.

Forrest Cooper: 01:16:17

And yet we as christians know that there is an answer to that question, and we also know that we are incapable of producing it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:16:25

Rather, we can only witness, bear witness the gospel to others.

Forrest Cooper: 01:16:28

And in that, that hesitation to be, well, I don't want to push my beliefs on you is, is funny because, like, who's doing it?

Forrest Cooper: 01:16:40

And I don't really see this like, this bully pulpit mentality coming from the christian world.

Forrest Cooper: 01:16:46

Now, I'm going to be biased, but I do see it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:16:49

I'm seeing this happen within gun culture where John Lovell, warrior Poet society was a great influence in gun culture because he was forefront with his faith.

Forrest Cooper: 01:17:01

He wasn't apologetic about it like you'll see in a video.

Forrest Cooper: 01:17:05

If you go back through his old videos, every once in a while you'll see him say something like, hey, look, if you're a Christian, I'm speaking to you, or if you're not a Christian, you don't need to be offended about it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:17:14

And I think that's sort of good natured integrity in the way he's saying it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:17:20

Sometimes I'd wish you'd come across as a little bit more bold, but then I do the same things.

Forrest Cooper: 01:17:27

But what I am seeing in this sense is that gun culture is dealing with where do we even get our values?

Forrest Cooper: 01:17:36

And through that, the gospel is entering into their lives.

Forrest Cooper: 01:17:40

And they're seeing that it's not this sort of mystical, wishy washy spiritualism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:17:47

It's this long tradition with solid theologians and soldiers and fighters and men and masculinity, with weakness and strength and courage and despair and pain.

Forrest Cooper: 01:18:00

And there is this richness in it that's in the culture.

Forrest Cooper: 01:18:03

But at the core of that belief system is that there is actually hope, because you were created by a God who knows who you are, who sent his son to die so that you could be reunited with the source of that which is good.

Forrest Cooper: 01:18:20

And that is affecting the gun culture, because then from that they recognize, well, I believe that I have a right to bear arms.

Forrest Cooper: 01:18:26

And where do I get that?

Forrest Cooper: 01:18:27

Well, I have it because I have inherent rights.

Forrest Cooper: 01:18:29

And I have inherent rights because I'm creating the image of God.

Forrest Cooper: 01:18:31

And because I'm creating the image of God and have inherent rights, then I have a responsibility to learn how to use those skills and pay attention to what's going on and be a useful agent in my environment, and then do and pursue what is good instead of just complain at the government because they're bad.

Forrest Cooper: 01:18:48

People.

Will Spencer: 01:18:51

Preach, brother.

Will Spencer: 01:18:51

Well, I think you've just made a very nice pitch for me to leave masculinity culture and join gun culture, because it sounds to me like the gun culture dialogue is way further ahead than the masculinity dialogue is.

Will Spencer: 01:19:03

Because the masculinity dialogue is hung up on Christianity coming in, because Christianity actually offers the promise of what masculinity always has, which is a wife and kids and family.

Will Spencer: 01:19:17

Right?

Will Spencer: 01:19:18

But what men are finding, as men like me come into the dialogue about masculinity, I get kicked out.

Will Spencer: 01:19:26

This is why I got banished from the manosphere.

Will Spencer: 01:19:28

One of the reasons, because men in that sphere are far less mature than it sounds like the men in gun culture are.

Will Spencer: 01:19:36

I can't say why, but they're recognizing that they have to give up their bitterness towards women, right.

Will Spencer: 01:19:42

And repent from that sin of bitterness.

Will Spencer: 01:19:45

And it is not going super well.

Will Spencer: 01:19:47

In fact, you're seeing a very intense chemical reaction of people are blocking me.

Will Spencer: 01:19:54

I don't even find out later I'm getting kicked out of things.

Will Spencer: 01:19:57

Right?

Will Spencer: 01:19:58

People are pulling away.

Will Spencer: 01:19:59

It's been a real difficult thing I've had to go through because these are all men that I've met in person.

Will Spencer: 01:20:03

I was filming a documentary.

Will Spencer: 01:20:04

In many cases, I've been to their homes, met their families person to person, spending hours in front of them.

Will Spencer: 01:20:10

And over time, I've become more christian in my beliefs.

Will Spencer: 01:20:13

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:20:13

As my own sanctification has taken place.

Will Spencer: 01:20:15

So I'm promoting a positive vision forward for men and women, families, the next generation.

Will Spencer: 01:20:20

And the response that I've received is to be slandered and banished and blocked in all these different things.

Will Spencer: 01:20:28

Right now.

Will Spencer: 01:20:29

Look, fine, I'm happy to be persecuted for his name.

Will Spencer: 01:20:32

This is not what this is about.

Will Spencer: 01:20:34

But it's an indication to me that the gospel is not taking root in the masculinity dialogue as deeply, I don't think, as it appears to in gun culture.

Will Spencer: 01:20:42

And I'm very happy about that because your guys are the ones with guns.

Will Spencer: 01:20:45

So I'm very happy that it's going in that way.

Will Spencer: 01:20:48

But it's very favorable for me to hear that from you.

Forrest Cooper: 01:20:52

Well, let me, without cutting the legs off the horse and trying to give you a full picture here, take the.

Will Spencer: 01:21:00

Head off the horse and put it in the bed next to the gangster.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:03

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:03

Well, you know, I know, I know a guy, but.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:08

But the point being said is I am saying this because this is what I am seeing, and I am, I'm only, my perception is only so wide.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:16

But it is something.

Will Spencer: 01:21:17

From your ivory tower.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:18

Yeah, from my little ivory tower, you know, my little Sauron.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:21

Little, little, you know, single story Sauron house.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:26

But what I, what I am saying is that I, I said it earlier, there's a massive overlap between the two.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:33

There is a massive overlap.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:35

And I.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:36

And maybe a better way of saying it is what I'm seeing in this community.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:40

You may be seeing in a similar community, but at the same time, I still think there's more overlap.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:45

And the other thing is that gun culture is a broadening sphere.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:49

I think it's actually growing more than it is isolating.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:52

And.

Forrest Cooper: 01:21:53

Yeah, and so, and so in that sense, leaving one to join another, you might find you're just in the same bedfellows, just different groups.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:04

I think there is plenty of the drama in gun culture, do not get me wrong.

Will Spencer: 01:22:09

What?

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:10

There's plenty of the drama.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:11

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 01:22:12

Men being dramatic.

Will Spencer: 01:22:13

No.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:16

There'S plenty.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:17

You're going to find that everywhere.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:19

But what's more important is that there are people who are learning how to concern themselves with it, knowing what the limit of concern.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:27

How much opinion do I place on random people, on social media?

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:31

You know, and it's that we're all people in this sense.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:36

So we're all struggling and facing some of the similar problems.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:39

I just have my sphere, and a lot of those people overlap in your sphere.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:44

And I wonder if the.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:46

To quote, to make a witcher reference, the spheres are colliding or aligning or.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:52

Oh, I'm about to.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:53

I'm not going to get heavily interrupted, but I'm going to get interrupted.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:56

Hey, cat.

Forrest Cooper: 01:22:57

I'm allergic, but somebody let the cat out, so.

Will Spencer: 01:23:00

Okay.

Will Spencer: 01:23:01

So hopefully you'll be okay.

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:03

I'll be fine.

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:04

I might sneeze once, but I won't sneeze in the microphone so that everyone will die.

Will Spencer: 01:23:09

Sneezing is allowed.

Will Spencer: 01:23:10

So I'm still encouraged.

Will Spencer: 01:23:14

I'm still encouraged to hear that because, yes, there's drama in any community of Mendez.

Will Spencer: 01:23:19

We're seeing this right now in christian Twitter as well.

Will Spencer: 01:23:22

The constant purity testing, like, well, the no true Scotsman fallacies flying far and wide.

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:30

But I think, yeah, if you don't work out, you're going to die.

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:33

If you don't have nods, you're going to die.

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:35

rails, because that's way too: 2008

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:44

You're going to.

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:45

There's purity culture everywhere.

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:46

It's just.

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:47

It's like we kind of have to.

Forrest Cooper: 01:23:51

Everyone comes to that maturity where they realize at some point in time that anonymous people on Twitter do not determine their entire worldview, but they do have to contend with it from time to time.

Will Spencer: 01:24:03

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:24:03

And I think I'm.

Will Spencer: 01:24:05

And I, of course, encounter that in the dialogue about masculinity, you know, like, are you.

Will Spencer: 01:24:10

Did you.

Will Spencer: 01:24:11

Did you eat seed oils today, bro?

Will Spencer: 01:24:13

Are you, like.

Will Spencer: 01:24:13

I remember when sunning your balls was a thing.

Will Spencer: 01:24:16

Like, are you sunning your balls?

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:18

I think.

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:19

I think I missed that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:20

I think I missed that whole phase.

Will Spencer: 01:24:22

Oh, good.

Will Spencer: 01:24:22

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 01:24:23

You didn't miss very much because it was really, you know, are you.

Will Spencer: 01:24:26

Are you.

Will Spencer: 01:24:27

Are you getting enough sun on your testicles?

Will Spencer: 01:24:29

As if that was something that men have needed for thousands of years.

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:33

Was that in: 2020

Will Spencer: 01:24:36

It was post: 2020

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:37

Yeah, post: 2020

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:39

Ah, okay.

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:40

Well, I think I was dealing with riot season in Minneapolis when that happened to.

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:44

So.

Will Spencer: 01:24:44

Oh, yeah, just no big deal.

Will Spencer: 01:24:46

Real world concerns is what you're saying.

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:48

Yeah, dude, I was just.

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:49

I'm just flexing my masculinity on you.

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:52

No, I remember hearing about it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:54

I remember hearing about it, but it was just kind of like what?

Forrest Cooper: 01:24:58

What?

Will Spencer: 01:24:59

Yeah, what?

Will Spencer: 01:25:01

Well, there's something to this where it's like the things that, the arguments that men get into about expressions of masculinity when they're not actually doing the thing.

Will Spencer: 01:25:11

And that's why I think there probably is an advantage that gun culture has in this discussion where it's like, no, we are guys who at least are moderately to even extremely proficient in actually doing the thing, and it's not theoretical for us.

Will Spencer: 01:25:24

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:25:25

And so at least you can say that many of the men who are in gun culture are ex military or military adjacent, you know, in a positive sense, not in a fake sense.

Will Spencer: 01:25:36

And so at least they have some real world grounding versus a lot of guys, you know, a lot of guys who are influencing the masculinity dialogue exclusively, who perhaps are australian, and they blur their faces and they're talking about, you know, crystals and reading books.

Will Spencer: 01:25:52

And look, there's nothing wrong with reading books.

Will Spencer: 01:25:53

You know, read, read as many books as you can.

Will Spencer: 01:25:55

But there's a real isolation from reality that leads to that purity testing, like sunning your balls and doing all these weird esoteric things.

Will Spencer: 01:26:03

It's like, no, man, I don't think it's that.

Will Spencer: 01:26:06

I think there's more to it.

Will Spencer: 01:26:07

And so you have men that actually are trained in doing the thing, know how to do the thing, have real life stuff going on that they've participated in, sometimes even unwillingly.

Will Spencer: 01:26:17

That creates a different perspective on the conversation about masculinity that I think is important to note.

Forrest Cooper: 01:26:23

Yeah, well, the gun culture world goes sour when it starts engaging in mysticism, but I think the same thing applies to masculinity as well.

Forrest Cooper: 01:26:30

When you start getting into these mystical arts of, again, the crystals and the sunning of your genitals and the.

Forrest Cooper: 01:26:38

It.

Forrest Cooper: 01:26:39

There was a.

Forrest Cooper: 01:26:41

There was a, one of the first guys who came on my show was Jared Arsenault of Orion training group.

Forrest Cooper: 01:26:47

And we were talking about tactical gnosticism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:26:50

We were talking.

Forrest Cooper: 01:26:51

And it was.

Forrest Cooper: 01:26:52

We were talking about how one of the challenges that gun culture faces or was facing at the time, and, I mean, it's sort of a concept, you know, an idea was that, well, CQB is something that only the secret masters can learn, and no one really believes that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:27:09

But we know, like, we know that if you're.

Forrest Cooper: 01:27:12

If you're a Navy SeAL and SEAL team six, you've probably done a decent amount of this skill set.

Forrest Cooper: 01:27:18

And, and while we can believe.

Forrest Cooper: 01:27:22

While we believe that that skill set really should be open to everybody because we believe in human rights, and you should be able to.

Forrest Cooper: 01:27:28

You should train, and it's a good thing to do and discipline your body and become capable of these things.

Forrest Cooper: 01:27:35

There's one way that it gets displayed funny is like, we don't really have a solid hierarchy for it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:27:40

Or is it hierarchy or hierarchy?

Forrest Cooper: 01:27:42

I don't know, but the other side of it is, it's like, is that CQB or recce or whatever the word is, the trending word of the day gets sort of mystified into this secret skill set of John Wickism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:27:57

And it's like, yeah, but I don't think anybody really believes that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:28:00

It's just, it gets the.

Forrest Cooper: 01:28:02

The cool factor gets mixed in with the identity factor, and then you start spoiling the eggs, and it all goes south.

Forrest Cooper: 01:28:09

And so there is, again, there's overlap here.

Forrest Cooper: 01:28:12

There's certainly overlap, but, and a challenge that the gun culture has is you have plenty of people who are very experienced in doing the thing, whether it's reconnaissance, whether it's long range patrolling, guerrilla warfare, whether it's CQB, self defense, competition, shooting.

Forrest Cooper: 01:28:31

You have all these.

Forrest Cooper: 01:28:32

You have a whole bunch of people with a lot of skill, and that skill is not, when you're a civilian, not being put to the test every day.

Forrest Cooper: 01:28:40

And so it's kind of like the masculinity issue of there's no real rite of passage until you realize that the idea of there being a perfect rite of passage for this is a little hard to nail down because, well, I have more CQB experience than this seal over here.

Forrest Cooper: 01:28:59

But a private in the marines who had no special operations background had way more experience in Ramadi or fallujah than I ever had.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:08

And so is that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:09

Does that experience directly measure, is it a measurable experience that qualifies as an expert?

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:16

And if an expert says something that's ridiculous and proven false, is their entire testimony thrown out?

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:21

No, but we.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:24

The.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:24

But the heuristics of these kind of things, hey, this guy's gone to combat.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:28

Therefore, I can trust him.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:29

Only go so far.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:31

They're not absolutes, and so they're not being an absolute in that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:36

In that there's no absolute.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:37

Hierarchy provides an I at a place where people have room to argue over it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:43

And some people argue better than others, and some people argue with good faith and some don't.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:48

And at the end of the day, where I were, that whether it's in masculinity or in gun culture, you got to start with, what are your values?

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:57

And what is the direction that we're aiming at.

Forrest Cooper: 01:29:59

Is my goal to simply survive a nuclear holocaust, or do I believe that there's something right and true and good about a man being capable of defending his family and being in mastery over his own capability of violence?

Forrest Cooper: 01:30:12

And from that, he trains himself to become capable so that he can not only defend his family in the time where it may become necessary or needed of him, but also so that he will not be swayed by emotional arguments to go enact violence and then find himself the bad guy in the story.

Will Spencer: 01:30:32

Well said.

Will Spencer: 01:30:33

Yeah, well said.

Will Spencer: 01:30:33

Like, why.

Will Spencer: 01:30:34

Why are we doing this?

Will Spencer: 01:30:36

Like, why are we ultimately having this discussion?

Will Spencer: 01:30:38

What's the purpose of it?

Will Spencer: 01:30:39

And I think specifically, and so this gets, like, the telos of the whole thing, right?

Will Spencer: 01:30:45

Telos, what's the purpose?

Will Spencer: 01:30:46

What's the meaning?

Will Spencer: 01:30:47

And so, like, if you're engaging and.

Will Spencer: 01:30:49

Okay, and I see the parallels again, because the discussion about masculinity for a very long time was very much serving itself.

Will Spencer: 01:31:00

Right?

Will Spencer: 01:31:01

It's a.

Will Spencer: 01:31:01

It's a self serving discussion.

Will Spencer: 01:31:03

Like, to the, I'm more masculine than you.

Will Spencer: 01:31:06

Like, I've run up higher, a higher score on the masculinity scoreboard because I have more of the six sixes or whatever measuring in terms of, like, well, I have a lower body fat percentage or I have a higher bench press or I make more money or whatever.

Will Spencer: 01:31:19

It's just scorekeeping.

Will Spencer: 01:31:20

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:31:21

And so versus, are you developing these things for the purpose of protecting and providing for a family?

Will Spencer: 01:31:30

And so the problem with masculine, the masculinity dialogue in particular, is that it began out of resentment towards women.

Will Spencer: 01:31:39

So the manosphere came out of the pickup era, and the pickup era was all about exploiting women for one night stands.

Will Spencer: 01:31:45

And so that's where it got all of its early.

Will Spencer: 01:31:48

Excuse me.

Will Spencer: 01:31:48

That's where it got all of its early dogmas, was all about winning, like winning the game over women.

Will Spencer: 01:31:55

So instead of faking it using conversational techniques like mystery and Neil Strauss, the game, they instead decided, rather than faking it with conversation, they wanted to win by actually being the fit, attractive, high status guy.

Will Spencer: 01:32:09

But the only reason for that, the only reason they could come up with for that is to have power.

Will Spencer: 01:32:14

Power for power's sake.

Will Spencer: 01:32:16

And that all sounds really cool for men that go from their teens into their twenties.

Will Spencer: 01:32:20

But once they start getting into their thirties, they discover that power for power's sake either becomes a self defeating proposition, or you have to put that power into service for a wife and kids, for a legacy.

Will Spencer: 01:32:34

Now, the problem is that if you go to put that power into service for a wife and kids, you immediately discover that there's something else other than power, because you can't dominate your wife and kids with pure power.

Will Spencer: 01:32:48

It doesn't work that way.

Will Spencer: 01:32:49

And so this is where the fracture has come in the dialogue about masculinity, because men are recognizing that I just can't be this Nietzschean Ubermensch and be a good husband and father.

Will Spencer: 01:33:00

I need another move.

Will Spencer: 01:33:02

And so a lot of men who make a lot of money are flinching off of that notion of, like, serving, leading by serving, serving by leading, and instead are doubling down on pure power.

Will Spencer: 01:33:14

And we're watching this fracture happen between guys that are leaning into fornication, nietzscheanism, paganism, power for powers sake, and are cutting themselves off from the telos of what masculinity is for, which is wives, children, family, et cetera, being a husband, provider, patriarch.

Will Spencer: 01:33:34

And so I see this paralleling in the gun culture, because it's like, why have I become powerful in the way that I have in the use of this instrument?

Will Spencer: 01:33:44

Is it for its own ends, or is it for higher purpose?

Will Spencer: 01:33:49

And I can see that that split would probably be pretty tough as well.

Forrest Cooper: 01:33:53

It does become tough, because you have to be split between Ted Kaczynski and the gospel, where you're striking out against power, and, and, you know, you're striking out against power, or even, there's got to be another good example, like, I wish I was better read in Nietzsche.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:13

I really do.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:14

Sure.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:15

Well, I mean, I say that, but I haven't, I've had his books on my shelf for a while, and I've only done cursory pass throughs, so.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:23

But at the end, like Nietzsche, Nietzsche's life didn't end well.

Will Spencer: 01:34:28

No, it didn't.

Will Spencer: 01:34:29

They never do well.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:31

It's well, and I don't mean this.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:33

I don't mean this, like, as a gotcha, but Nietzsche brought a lot of good observation to the world.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:40

He did.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:41

I think he, I think he, he deserves the respect.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:44

He deserves respect.

Forrest Cooper: 01:34:46

But what you run into is that I think I have this, I have this model that I use, and it, and it's, and it goes naivety, cynicism, wisdom, and, or, you know, one way or another is that, is that we're all, we kind of all enter into the world naive, whether it's a skill set, like learning how to shoot, or whether it's, as a mandeh and our fathers or our communities may have some assistance in that, but ultimately, we are responsible to what we believe and what we think about and what we put our mind to.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:19

And so we enter naive.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:22

And naivety can be described as a combination of lack of knowledge or misplaced knowledge or knowledge that isn't very well grounded with a sense of innocence.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:33

So there's a difference between.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:34

There's a difference between ignorance and naivety.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:37

Naivety has a.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:40

It has at least a dollop of.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:42

Of innocence to it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:44

Um, but then naivety.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:46

And then I'm gonna go.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:48

I'm gonna do a straight parallel into Christianity.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:50

I'm gonna use Christianity as this example.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:52

I grew up in the church.

Forrest Cooper: 01:35:53

I grew up in the church, and I grew up as a Christian, and I grew up under good, like, christian parents who were genuine in their concerned to be parents.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:01

And I grew up in a church that had mixed levels.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:06

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:06

But we're not going to.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:06

We're not going to turn this into.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:08

Well, it was my youth pastor's fault, but rather so.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:12

And as you're growing up, you're learning different things, whether it's.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:15

Well, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, or it's, well, there was a flood and Noah was there, or whether it's Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and how do we understand what sin is and.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:26

And belief in this metaphysic, this worldview of, like, this is what the earth is, and this is who I am, and this is who God is.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:34

But then you go out into the world and you leave your parents home.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:37

And for me, it was a culture shock because I went into the military, and a lot of that naivety was challenged.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:46

But I am not unique in that case, because you see it in christian kids who grew up in christian homes, who go to christian colleges.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:53

You see it in family.

Forrest Cooper: 01:36:55

Whatever your worldview is, when you were a child, you thought like a child, and then you were confronted with the world.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:00

And so naivety, when faced against reality, something has to give.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:06

And you can either go deep into delusion and reject all reality and become a solipsist or a not even, like, you can reject all reality and just say, my belief uber alice, and.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:21

And whatever I believe to be true.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:23

And this is the postmodern answer, and that is, well, perception is reality.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:28

And what I believe is actually only a fashion statement about how I care about things.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:32

And.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:33

Or the other option is to become skeptical of everything, and both of them comically produce the same thing.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:42

Cynicism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:43

There's no such thing as truth.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:45

It's all corrupt.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:46

There is no truth but power.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:47

And then so skepticism is a intellectual tool.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:52

Is an intellectual tool.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:53

So you present a theory, an argument.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:56

I will be skeptical towards it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:37:58

My skepticism should be considered a sign of honor if it's done in good faith.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:02

And that skepticism is a tool.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:04

I'm being skeptical of your position, your argument, your thesis, your premises.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:09

But then if that skepticism starts becoming a worldview that, well, I don't know if there is any reality or I don't know if there is any truth.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:18

There is no truth at all.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:20

It's just perception.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:22

And then there is no.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:24

There is no.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:25

When you apply skepticism to epistemology of what, how do we understand information and how do we think and how do we act?

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:33

Then you start becoming cynical, and then cynicism, if left to fester, becomes nihilism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:40

And nihilism is a met.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:42

It is ace, is skepticism at the metaphysical level where you are and you've gone from your foundations of morality, nothing but skepticism, your belief.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:54

There's nothing good.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:55

Everything's corrupt.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:56

There's nothing good under the sun.

Forrest Cooper: 01:38:58

There is no truth but power.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:00

And this is what nihilism produces.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:02

There is no truth but power.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:03

There's no good but pleasure.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:04

There is no fun but hedonism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:07

There is no.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:09

And it destroys.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:10

It destroys me.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:11

There is no meaning.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:13

Everything is meaningless.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:16

And so let's eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:19

And the dark part of it is that nihilism, that very nihilism, the end, is either hedonism or suicide.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:29

And hedonism is a slow suicide.

Will Spencer: 01:39:32

Yep.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:32

It's just a slow distraction from the death.

Forrest Cooper: 01:39:35

And I can say that with absolute conviction that the suicide of that sort of hedon, that lifestyle of hedonism is ultimately when you wake up in the morning, hungover, when you come off that buzz, when that distraction has become your meaning of life, every moment away from that distraction is terrible because all you have left is the meaningless of existence.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:01

But so you're faced with this abyss, and this is Nietzsche's abyss, right?

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:05

You stare into the abyss.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:06

The abyss stares back at you, and you start seeing that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:09

That very wickedness that you see in the world is also in yourself.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:13

And all the evils that you see in other people are that can exit.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:17

They exist in you as well.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:19

And you have to distract yourself from that or reject it or fight it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:23

So this is where you get.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:25

This is where we end up with this is.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:27

You started naive.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:28

Naivety had to crumble because it faced reality.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:31

When it crumbled, something had to fill the void.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:33

And it started with skepticism manifested in a cynicism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:37

And then it completely encapsulated into nihilism, which is death, then.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:42

But you have a choice.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:43

You have an option here.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:45

But what you can do when you see that abyss is you can look into it, recognize that you don't know all the answers, you don't know everything.

Forrest Cooper: 01:40:53

But you start with a little bit of truth, and you take one step into the darkness, and you learn to navigate it one step at a time, and you start walking through it just a little bit.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:03

And that is a voluntary participation.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:06

And you are engaging in it one step at a time.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:09

And as you learn to navigate that infinite doubt, as you take time and effort and humility, because that darkness is out there, is also in you, then you can find the boon.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:20

And that boon.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:21

This is kind of hearkening back to a little bit of Joseph Campbell, which I wouldn't write him as, like the world's most solid theologian, but here, with a thousand faces, is worth reading.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:33

And.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:34

And it was specifically for the hero's journey.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:36

And he.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:38

And he.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:39

But you get this journey, this process of going back to that statement about the good taking one step in pursuit of goodness, one step.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:49

And that is where wisdom is found.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:52

It's not found in infinite skepticism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:41:55

It's not found in foolish naivety or childish naivety.

Forrest Cooper: 01:42:00

It's found in facing the hardship of the world with humility, one step at a time.

Forrest Cooper: 01:42:07

And so for the manosphere issue, I'll speak to the gun culture issue first.

Forrest Cooper: 01:42:12

And for the gun culture issue is it starts with, there's good guys and bad guys.

Forrest Cooper: 01:42:16

There's cops and robbers, there's oppressors and oppressed.

Forrest Cooper: 01:42:19

And if you'll not give Marx, we'll give Marx his due, but we won't give him the credit he demanded, which is near godhood.

Forrest Cooper: 01:42:30

What we will do is that there's good guys and bad guys.

Forrest Cooper: 01:42:33

And then you get out into the world, and you realize that it's not so clear that the army that you joined in is participating in things that has gone to war, a juice ad bellum war, which doesn't really match up with the jus in Bello rules of engagement, that the people who send men to war don't pay the price.

Forrest Cooper: 01:42:51

They don't pay the consequences for the war that they're sending people to.

Forrest Cooper: 01:42:55

And the rules of engagement are being written by people whose intent is to become rich and get rid of you because you go make them money, and then they dispose of you because you do your.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:05

You live honorably as a veteran and as a soldier, and then you become a veteran, and the VA doesn't help you at all.

Will Spencer: 01:43:12

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:13

You know, and so.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:14

And the world gets really dark really quickly.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:16

And there's a refuge from that darkness, which is, well, nihilism or skepticism, even cynicism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:24

But that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:25

That refuge starts to eat away at your soul.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:29

You start losing not even the flavor for life, but even the will to live.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:33

And from there is where you start.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:37

You can choose to either bask in the wickedness in some form of self justification, and let's say you bask in that nihilism, but you achieve power, go forth and destroy, I guess, because then all you have is power.

Forrest Cooper: 01:43:52

And when that power fades because mankind is fickle and the world does not uphold emperors or kings to last forever, then you will find your day of ruin.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:01

But there is the step where.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:04

That you are faced with.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:06

Do I choose to pursue wisdom?

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:08

And wisdom is recognizing that there's doubt, recognizing that there are.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:13

There's.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:13

It's complex.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:14

Recognizing that you have a capability to handle some of that complexity, but not all of it at any given time.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:20

And so you take small steps to understand a little bit here and a little bit here.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:25

So you learn how to shoot.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:27

You learn.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:28

Maybe you don't join the military, but you realize that it's not all great.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:31

There's oppression coming from the government through the ATF or whatever.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:34

And then the nihilistic answer is, well, then let's just live in violence.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:40

Let's just bask in violence.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:42

And that you can get Bosnia from that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:45

No one wants to see a bosnian revolution in America where people are just taking potshots at each other, trying to get gas or feed their family.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:53

Or you can.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:54

Or you can choose wisdom, which is learning to be capable.

Forrest Cooper: 01:44:59

And not only learning to be capable, but grounding that capability in that higher purpose, which you take one step at a time.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:06

There's no silver bullet to gun culture.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:09

There's no silver bullet to corruption.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:11

But you can participate in small parts.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:13

Maybe it's at your church, in your family, raising your kids, influencing their friends.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:19

Maybe it's participating in competition, building an economy, running a small business.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:25

And you.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:25

And you have your small participation, which leads to a greater participation.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:29

Maybe you become very influential.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:32

You've got millions of people who follow you.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:34

Then you have the ability to speak into their lives, not out of arrogance, but out of humility, because we're in this together.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:41

We're in this.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:42

This.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:42

This nation together.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:43

And.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:44

And you, you submit that strength to a higher power, which you continuously engage in instead of just submitting to it like a fool.

Forrest Cooper: 01:45:53

The masculinity might have its, I think masculinity has a similar, a similar attribute attribution to it.

Will Spencer: 01:45:59

Mm hmm.

Will Spencer: 01:46:00

I think you said the magic bit there at the end, submitting to a higher power.

Will Spencer: 01:46:04

And that's the part where I think a lot of men are forced into a position of they either have to submit or they have to go their own way.

Forrest Cooper: 01:46:15

They have to become God.

Will Spencer: 01:46:17

Thats right.

Will Spencer: 01:46:17

And thats Nichu.

Will Spencer: 01:46:19

Its like God is dead.

Will Spencer: 01:46:20

What will we do?

Will Spencer: 01:46:21

Well, we will have to become gods ourselves.

Will Spencer: 01:46:26

I was talking to some guys.

Will Spencer: 01:46:27

I spoke at a conference this past weekend, and I was talking about my particular strategy with debate and dialogue is I will jujitsu people into a position where they have to either choose, they have to choose the gospel or whatever it is they're choosing instead.

Will Spencer: 01:46:44

So, for example, with feminism, getting women into a position where it's like, hey, you see that right there?

Will Spencer: 01:46:52

You have to choose to either let that go, to choose the gospel and submission to Christ, or choose feminism.

Will Spencer: 01:47:00

Like, theres no other choice.

Will Spencer: 01:47:01

And so with men as well, I do this also.

Will Spencer: 01:47:05

And the challenge there is men get to this place where theyre in nihilism or theyre in hedonism.

Will Spencer: 01:47:13

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:47:14

And im so glad that you said hedonism is slow suicide, because I recorded part of and asked me anything yesterday where I was talking about something that ive heard described.

Will Spencer: 01:47:24

Theres no source for where this term came from.

Will Spencer: 01:47:26

But I heard it.

Will Spencer: 01:47:27

And so ive been using it.

Will Spencer: 01:47:29

Long tail suicide.

Will Spencer: 01:47:31

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:47:32

And you just said it.

Will Spencer: 01:47:33

That's hedonism.

Will Spencer: 01:47:34

Right.

Will Spencer: 01:47:34

Like, for example, overindulgence and food and alcohol and obesity over time is hedonism.

Will Spencer: 01:47:39

It's the pursuit of pleasure.

Will Spencer: 01:47:41

It's just killing yourself slowly.

Will Spencer: 01:47:42

And you can see that, right.

Will Spencer: 01:47:44

And so men get in this position where it's nihilism, hedonism, nietzsche ism, nietzscheanism, et cetera, like will to power, where they recognize, you can walk that road, that road does not have a good end, or you can submit to a higher power.

Will Spencer: 01:48:02

But then they recognize very quickly, I think, the conviction of sin and repentance within themselves.

Will Spencer: 01:48:09

And I think they think they're too strong to be humble or they're too strong to apologize.

Will Spencer: 01:48:18

Like, no, I'm the man, and that's pride.

Will Spencer: 01:48:21

And so the men who can truly repent for their sins, for their mistakes, perhaps through their whole lives, are the men that are strong enough to be humble.

Will Spencer: 01:48:30

Now, in many cases, this may mean that they lose everything.

Will Spencer: 01:48:34

If you've built, there's a great example of this, and his name is Roche V.

Will Spencer: 01:48:39

And he was one of the most infamous pickup artists, made God only knows how much money traveling around the world, who knows how many women had books and forums and all this stuff.

Will Spencer: 01:48:50

He got convicted of his sin long before the manosphere started to figure it out.

Will Spencer: 01:48:55

And he became Eastern Orthodox, which I think was the faith that his family was in.

Will Spencer: 01:49:00

So he returned to the faith of his family, burned all of his books, took them all down off Amazon, gave away his website, and left it all behind, lost everything.

Will Spencer: 01:49:12

It's been very difficult for him, but I judge him as being sincere.

Will Spencer: 01:49:17

And so for men that are forced into this position that they've built themselves up as sort of pseudo gods, stand in for God, and they've built an identity out of that when they feel the call to repentance because they go through some crisis or they've recognized that maybe my theology, my personal theology, isn't as strong as I had hoped.

Will Spencer: 01:49:38

Right?

Will Spencer: 01:49:38

They may recognize I will have to probably lose everything and repent for my wrong beliefs.

Will Spencer: 01:49:45

And for some men, that's like the rich young ruler, like, give it all up and follow me, it's like, nope, I won't do that.

Will Spencer: 01:49:50

And then, so they take off.

Will Spencer: 01:49:51

They take off down the other path.

Will Spencer: 01:49:53

And so for me, this is very validating of the by grace alone, faith through grace alone.

Will Spencer: 01:50:02

Like, I couldn't have gotten there through my own repentance for my own things without, without God doing it.

Will Spencer: 01:50:08

Like, I'm not a self made man, I'm a God made mandeh.

Will Spencer: 01:50:11

And so it's really reaffirming for me of the true power.

Will Spencer: 01:50:16

And I don't know that I hope and pray that more men feel that, because I don't think you can just walk that through your own will.

Will Spencer: 01:50:22

It must be something deeper within you, higher above you that's taking place through you, to get you through the depth of repentance that some men and women as well, will have to go through to achieve what we're talking about.

Forrest Cooper: 01:50:37

Yeah, there's a, there was, there was this sort of, how do you, how do you say it?

Forrest Cooper: 01:50:43

Like this story, story book version of coming to faith.

Forrest Cooper: 01:50:48

And, and like, I remember as a child, you know, you'd see, I was a young man in my teenage years, and you would see these people who were living, these young kids, right, living, living lives of sin, whatever, whatever it was at the time, whatever was the, the dirty word.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:05

And then they, they, through some event, through Christ coming to them, received the gospel, became christians and turned their lives around.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:14

And sure, none of it happened overnight, and some of it was bigger and some of it was smaller and there was emotion expressed.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:20

But then for some of us, it wasn't like that.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:22

And it wasn't like we had this big aha.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:25

Moment where, like, the world pulled back and you saw everything and you finally had your.

Will Spencer: 01:51:30

I.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:32

Your grasp.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:33

It was something that took time.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:36

And for some people it happens externally, and for some people it happens very much so internally.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:42

And I struggled with that for a long time.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:44

Being a man who grew up in the church, who read my Bible as a child, who went in the military, who had my deployments, who went to school for theology, who learned to read Greek so I could read the original or the Old Testament or the New Testament, its original language.

Forrest Cooper: 01:51:58

And then the challenge of faith that I was met with has taken multiple forms, and some of them are very personal, but one of them is that I was trying to become co.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:11

Like a sidekick to Christ.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:13

Like, well, you're going to save me, but then I'm going to be a hero.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:17

And it was a conviction that didn't happen in some grandiose moment.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:23

It was literally in quieter.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:26

In my head, in my heart, happening at this one time.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:30

And that extended over like, it took seasons, but it was like this sort of coming to recognition that I was trying to be not a.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:40

Not.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:40

Not a co heir in Christ of his salvation, but a co conspirator in the prison rescue of my soul.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:48

And.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:49

And it was like, no, no, you do not get.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:53

It was.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:54

What was it?

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:55

It was it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:52:56

Second Corinthians 318, which was recently at a church service we were attending, was part of that simple recognition that we are being made like Christ.

Forrest Cooper: 01:53:08

We are being made into his image, not as co authors in the future, right?

Forrest Cooper: 01:53:14

But that doesn't mean that I go off and abandon all attempts at living or doing what is right.

Forrest Cooper: 01:53:22

It's that small thing, but it meant something at that time and it still does, you know, and it wasn't.

Forrest Cooper: 01:53:30

It wasn't exactly an ancient history for me.

Forrest Cooper: 01:53:33

But there is some encouragement there is that you don't.

Forrest Cooper: 01:53:37

It doesn't all happen externally, it doesn't all happen in this great, grandiose emotional experience.

Forrest Cooper: 01:53:43

But there was a mentor of mine was saying, if you lack faith, ask for more.

Forrest Cooper: 01:53:50

And we can go off on all the christian diatribes and all of the christian, you know, Christianese, gentle, worthless, empty, valid or empty statements.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:01

But what I would be, what I'm trying to say in that one is, don't quit.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:08

Don't quit because it's hard.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:10

Don't quit because it's uncomfortable, because you don't feel anything.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:14

Don't quit.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:16

And.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:16

And.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:17

And submission to Christ, submission to truth, is, is you.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:21

At the end of the day, you're going to realize that there are two options in the world.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:24

Either your intellect is sovereign or God is sovereign.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:28

You cannot.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:29

There is no third option.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:30

Either you are a.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:32

And if you choose the intellect, you have an infinite number of endless, hedonistic, masturbatory self destruct, whether it's like the oppressor oppressed narrative that fits within the marxist argument, where it's like, well, I would be.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:45

I would literally be a divine, perfect God if it wasn't for those pesky capitalists over there or whatever.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:51

Or I would be the perfect man if it wasn't for feminism.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:54

Or I would be the perfect.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:55

I would be like, no one recognizes my perfection is.

Forrest Cooper: 01:54:59

Isdezhehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe is an easy selling point when you feel then that the world is dark.

Forrest Cooper: 01:55:06

But that is not a road that ends well.

Forrest Cooper: 01:55:10

It ends in the worship of the self.

Forrest Cooper: 01:55:13

And the worship of the self is that hedonism and that slow death.

Forrest Cooper: 01:55:16

So the only solution is to recognize that there's something more true than you.

Forrest Cooper: 01:55:22

And the only place that you can find that truth is in the gospel.

Forrest Cooper: 01:55:25

And it might be powerful and emotional for some people, and for you, it might simply be in my own mind, where I look down into my deepest parts of who I am with as much integrity as I can try to bring to it, and recognize that what at the core is not Jordan Peterson's little burning flame of greatness, but it's an ugly little rot, this ugly little creature, if you get to your very core, and then you have to give that up, and you give it up, there's this idea that life is a crucible, or you're going through a crucible where you're cutting away the dead flesh and you're burning off the chaff and you're getting rid of all the parts of you, whether it's unrealistic expectations of an abusive parent, or whether it's society's demands of whatever you're supposed to be, or whether it's the difficulty of making money in this economy, or whether it's.

Forrest Cooper: 01:56:23

You start cutting away even the personal parts, which is my resentment towards my successful friends or my jealousy.

Forrest Cooper: 01:56:33

What is it, my frustration with my wife or my loneliness or whatever, you start cutting those away, too.

Forrest Cooper: 01:56:40

And you think at the core of it, I'm going to find this little flame of, uh, this innocent, earnest, good person at your very core.

Forrest Cooper: 01:56:50

But when you get there and you crack into that final chamber, you're not going to find.

Forrest Cooper: 01:56:55

You don't find what is good.

Forrest Cooper: 01:56:56

You find what is evil, and it, and that is terror.

Forrest Cooper: 01:57:00

That at your core, you're not the savior of the story.

Forrest Cooper: 01:57:04

And and that is a hard place to come to.

Forrest Cooper: 01:57:07

But then from there, you take that, you take that wickedness out and you place it on the altar and say, even this is not worthy of you, but this is all I have left to give.

Forrest Cooper: 01:57:18

And Christ is faithful to take that and say, I am redeeming you.

Will Spencer: 01:57:27

So that's incredibly beautiful.

Will Spencer: 01:57:29

I just want to let that sit for a minute.

Will Spencer: 01:57:32

I wish that the Internet was better at respectful silence.

Will Spencer: 01:57:35

It's the one thing that the Internet is not good at.

Will Spencer: 01:57:38

But I offer that gesture of gratitude for that which you said, and I hope men will go back and listen to that again, because it's really true.

Will Spencer: 01:57:47

And everything in our culture tells us the opposite.

Will Spencer: 01:57:50

Whether you believe in eastern mysticism, that tells you that we are fundamentally good, which I believed for a very long time, or whether you believe the message of secular culture, which is you can be anything you want, there's something, and it reinforces that message.

Will Spencer: 01:58:07

But another way to actually witness the decrepitude of the soul and to go into that space and to remain there undefended and to be witnessed in it by almighty God, the creator of the universe, is crushing from a secular perspective.

Will Spencer: 01:58:26

And there's no hope in that place unless you have the power to submit to the gospel.

Will Spencer: 01:58:34

And then the absolute transformation of the soul, that happens where it's like, wait, this is who I am, and you sent your son to die for this?

Will Spencer: 01:58:44

How absolutely glorious.

Will Spencer: 01:58:47

That's the only thing that can change hearts and lives and minds.

Will Spencer: 01:58:50

And it's absolutely true that it's obscured from some people to be able to witness the glory of that.

Will Spencer: 01:59:00

And that's a tragedy, because that's where the only safety, the only security, the only redemption, the only love, the only purpose, the only meaning can be found is in that profound truth that God was willing, God himself was willing to die for this little decrepit, evil creature to bring you back into reconciliation with him, which he didnt have to do.

Will Spencer: 01:59:26

Its incredibly powerful.

Will Spencer: 01:59:28

And the end of the cell, its where the self ends, and not a good end either, but a glorious end if you have the courage to accept it.

Forrest Cooper: 01:59:38

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 01:59:40

As a young man, the phrase take up your cross and follow me was always difficult because it would be nice if the act of taking the cross up was a simple act of martyrdom.

Forrest Cooper: 01:59:52

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 01:59:52

Like if we live.

Forrest Cooper: 01:59:54

If we truly lived in, in America right now in a very simple, oppressive, where if you're found with the Bible, you will be executed on the spot.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:02

Like that.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:02

Is it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:03

I'm not saying it's easy, but compared.

Will Spencer: 02:00:06

It'S more, it's less abstract, it's more clear cut.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:09

But it would be.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:10

It would at least be a little bit simpler.

Will Spencer: 02:00:12

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:13

You know, and, but we don't.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:15

And history shows that it's.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:18

It's nothing that all the time, but ultimately, that's where we stand, is what is going on.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:25

What.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:25

What is taking up your cross look like.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:28

And it's not simple.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:29

It's not something you achieve overnight.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:30

It's not something that you.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:32

Sometimes it is simple that you just have to do it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:34

But, you know, this, this goes back to that argument of strength is that, like we started with that earlier part on the question of can weak men be good and selfishly?

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:45

It's, it's a, it's a subject of great interest, but it is that weakness that we were talking about is refusing to come to the end of yourself.

Forrest Cooper: 02:00:58

But living in that medium ground where you living in the miasma between, you know, there's something at the bottom, but you won't go there, but you're not willing.

Forrest Cooper: 02:01:08

You can't rise to the surface.

Forrest Cooper: 02:01:10

And, and that weaknesses is choosing not to do the things that you not is choosing not to be.

Forrest Cooper: 02:01:19

Not to do the things not to.

Forrest Cooper: 02:01:20

Not to.

Forrest Cooper: 02:01:21

It is willingly choosing to live in that miasma and that cynicism and that nihilism and choosing to bask there as long as your body can hold out and hoping that your spirit will.

Forrest Cooper: 02:01:35

Your body will expire before your spirit has to face it.

Will Spencer: 02:01:39

It's kind of dark framed that way.

Will Spencer: 02:01:42

And I think you're right.

Will Spencer: 02:01:43

The weak man is the man who refuses to come to the end of himself.

Will Spencer: 02:01:48

However it presents itself in the moment.

Will Spencer: 02:01:50

And that can be physically, that can be professionally, that can be morally, that can be theologically.

Will Spencer: 02:01:57

The weak man refuses to come to the end of himself.

Will Spencer: 02:02:00

And so goodness can only be something because we talked about this at the beginning.

Will Spencer: 02:02:08

Goodness is an ongoing pursuit in the way that we framed it.

Will Spencer: 02:02:12

We never actually get there.

Will Spencer: 02:02:13

So if goodness is an ongoing pursuit and the goodness is found in the pursuit itself, if a man refuses to come to the end of himself, he fails on the path of goodness.

Will Spencer: 02:02:25

And by default cannot be good.

Will Spencer: 02:02:27

Right.

Will Spencer: 02:02:27

I refuse to go past myself.

Forrest Cooper: 02:02:30

That is a.

Forrest Cooper: 02:02:32

That is a way that I'm gonna have to listen to that a second time because it's.

Forrest Cooper: 02:02:36

I think it's.

Forrest Cooper: 02:02:37

I think you're right on the money there.

Forrest Cooper: 02:02:38

But I wanna.

Forrest Cooper: 02:02:40

I need to.

Forrest Cooper: 02:02:40

I need to.

Forrest Cooper: 02:02:40

I think I need to meditate on such things or think about it a little bit, because I believe that you're correct in the sense of goodness being a pursuit, weakness being refusal of the pursuit.

Forrest Cooper: 02:02:56

Both of those are different than righteousness or sanctification through.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:01

Sorry, not sanctification.

Will Spencer: 02:03:02

Justification.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:03

Justification by grace.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:05

And so in that sense, we are.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:08

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:09

Weaknesses is refusing.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:10

I mean, we see this in other characters like David Goggins and running these super ultra marathons, and he's challenging weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:18

You see it in this compulsion to become a Navy SeAL or an excellent competitive shooter is that like a person who doesn't become an excellent competitive shooter is not willing to put in the work.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:29

And weakness in this sense, it can sometimes be looked at as simply laziness.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:36

And laziness might be a form of weakness, and weakness is a form of sin.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:40

But basking and identifying in that weakness as if it were the same as justification, probably what we're looking at right here as.

Forrest Cooper: 02:03:52

Yeah, I think I'm going to let it go.

Will Spencer: 02:03:57

Yeah, I think this is important because there's a way in which.

Will Spencer: 02:04:04

So we're talking about two different things, but there's overlap and there's like a Venn diagram overlap, and there's also a way in which they're separate.

Will Spencer: 02:04:14

And this is what I run into when I talk to.

Will Spencer: 02:04:17

To christians, is that there is an aspect of our earthly pursuits, I won't call it worldly, of our earthly pursuits that is exclusively earthly, where it is not necessarily explicitly commanded by God in the same way that repentance from sin is.

Will Spencer: 02:04:35

So the ongoing commitment to the pursuit of moral goodness and the repentance from sin is essential to salvation.

Will Spencer: 02:04:43

You know, grace alone through faith alone means that sanctification will happen on its own rather than through works.

Will Spencer: 02:04:50

Right.

Will Spencer: 02:04:50

So this moral rectification will happen on its own.

Will Spencer: 02:04:55

I can say that it's happened on its own through me, which is an incredible feeling.

Will Spencer: 02:04:59

So that is to be differentiated from the pursuit from worldly pursuits such as physical strength, financial stability, professional accomplishments, etcetera.

Will Spencer: 02:05:16

There is a way in which those two things are separate.

Will Spencer: 02:05:19

But where I think the dialogue about Christianity and masculinity is not good at is saying there is a place where these two things overlap.

Will Spencer: 02:05:29

We don't know what it is, but they must overlap somehow.

Will Spencer: 02:05:34

Because if you refuse to go past yourself for the purposes of serving your family, are you truly pursuing godliness?

Will Spencer: 02:05:44

If godliness is vertical, like your orientation of yourself towards your conscience, and the divine versus horizontal, which is the orientation towards culture and family and earthly things, where is the overlap there?

Will Spencer: 02:05:59

Are you failing in your duties towards God if you allow yourself to be a weak mand like meaning in terms of your earthly pursuits?

Will Spencer: 02:06:11

And this is where I think the dialogue around Christianity gets caught right now, where it's like, I don't want to be convicted of my weakness, my earthly weakness, in various ways, because I have godliness and that's all I need.

Will Spencer: 02:06:27

And that can't be true.

Will Spencer: 02:06:29

That can't be true.

Will Spencer: 02:06:30

And I don't think christians prior to this moment in history would have ever agreed with it being true.

Forrest Cooper: 02:06:38

Paul wouldn't even agree with it being true.

Will Spencer: 02:06:39

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 02:06:40

The New Testament would, like Jesus says, go and sin no more.

Forrest Cooper: 02:06:44

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 02:06:45

That is an action.

Forrest Cooper: 02:06:46

Go and sin no more.

Forrest Cooper: 02:06:48

Sell your cloak and buy a sword, whether it's turn the other cheek, because you can love your neighbor, love your family, love your God.

Forrest Cooper: 02:06:56

Like these are actions.

Forrest Cooper: 02:06:58

They're imperatives, they're exhortations.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:00

Paul, I do not boast in myself because that myself is only weakness, but that which I boast in.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:06

I'm not quoting him perfectly, but I'm kind of talking about first and second corinthians again, which has probably been the center component of this episode only because I've been reading it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:16

This is what I was reading recently because it's on top of mind.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:22

But the way of saying it being, you know, Paul says, he says, this is church discipline.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:31

This person among you.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:32

How do you live with them, living in open sin amongst you?

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:35

Approach them or cast them out.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:37

And then if they repent, welcome them back in and go and be men.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:42

Be strong.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:43

Act like men.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:44

Do what is good.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:45

But we also recognize that our sanctification is not made possible by our own strength, but we must participate in it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:52

So go and do what is good.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:54

Go and do it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:54

Love your family.

Forrest Cooper: 02:07:56

And how is it that you can create an argument in the church that making yourself an incompetent buffoon who is unwilling to stand up to any sort of challenging arguments, whether they be, because this is, again, second corinthians, go and present good arguments.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:13

Go and present these things to each other.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:15

Challenge that which is evil amongst yourselves.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:18

And he's calling these people to do these things.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:21

And then I think the modern church, where we see this going back to the beginning of the bad faith argument, is I don't want to, I don't want to handle the, I don't want to face this type of conviction because I am sanctified in another way.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:33

And on the one hand, my brother in Christ, I hear you.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:38

We are not saved by our own strength.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:41

But what I am saying is that you are not acting godly because you're refusing your responsibility as a mandehead.

Will Spencer: 02:08:49

I agree.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:50

I agree.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:52

And that weakness festers into nihilism.

Forrest Cooper: 02:08:57

And nihilism is the anti God.

Will Spencer: 02:09:00

Explore that.

Will Spencer: 02:09:01

Kick that around.

Will Spencer: 02:09:02

So that weakness, maybe we covered it already.

Will Spencer: 02:09:05

That if you refuse, so if you as a christian man, okay, so this gets into questions perhaps of apostasy, right?

Will Spencer: 02:09:15

What does that look like?

Will Spencer: 02:09:16

Because I can see a scenario where a man is in church and he's behaving faithfully and he's pursuing his sanctification, and then comes a moment where he refuses to go beyond himself to mortify a sin and ends up going down that road and falling away.

Will Spencer: 02:09:36

I can see it.

Will Spencer: 02:09:38

Which ultimately ends up in the pursuit of fleshly desires, which itself leads to nihilism, hedonism, you know, long or slow suicide.

Will Spencer: 02:09:46

So, yeah, okay, I can see those two.

Will Spencer: 02:09:48

And, you know, then we can get into the questions of, was his salvation effectual?

Will Spencer: 02:09:52

But that's a separate.

Will Spencer: 02:09:52

Only God knows that answer.

Forrest Cooper: 02:09:54

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:09:54

So another version of it, let's use like the, you exist in a church in America and we are witnessing something like persecution of the church.

Forrest Cooper: 02:10:04

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 02:10:04

And right now, what we're seeing, what we're seeing in America is not the persecution that is told in storybooks about the early church, but certainly there are some adjacencies or there's warning signs or there's concerns.

Forrest Cooper: 02:10:19

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 02:10:19

And so you exist in a church and somebody enters in the church, not necessarily as a snake oil salesman, but bringing in, like, overt heresy.

Forrest Cooper: 02:10:33

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 02:10:34

And let's, I think I'm just going to get away from all of the, the ambiguities of it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:10:40

So you're a man in church, and somebody enters the church who is preaching the gospel of Marxism, preaching the gospel of whatever you want to call it, black lives matter, or whatever the current thing is today, whatever the current version of, well, the government is God.

Forrest Cooper: 02:10:57

And we're not talking about christian nationalism.

Forrest Cooper: 02:10:59

We're talking about a very specific thing of, like, you know, you have someone who enters into your church and says, oh, well, we should have, we should have women lead the church now.

Forrest Cooper: 02:11:09

Or we should have.

Forrest Cooper: 02:11:12

Let's just use that one.

Forrest Cooper: 02:11:14

Let's just use like, well, we, you know, we need to have a woman's perspective from the pulpit.

Forrest Cooper: 02:11:19

Okay, well there's a pretty clear cut case for that in the old and New Testament where that's, that's not the way that things are supposed to go.

Forrest Cooper: 02:11:27

And you know, and there is, we don't need to get full on, we're not going chauvinist here.

Forrest Cooper: 02:11:33

We're saying there is a direction that's given in the church where it's saying, no, we don't need a woman's perspective because even that is saying the gospel isn't good enough because a woman didn't say it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:11:46

So you're a man in a church and the church starts entertaining and you've participated, you're not just a guy who's been there occasionally, but you've been participating in your church and you've humbled yourself, recognizing that not everybody is on your level.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:01

And I'm putting air quotes on that on purpose.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:05

Not everybody is up to your level of awareness of domestic terrorism.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:09

Not everybody is up to your verbiage in theology.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:13

Not everyone.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:14

Whatever.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:15

Pick your idol, your small idol there.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:19

But I guess idolatry is not the right word.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:22

But you're in a church and you're seeing the encroachment happen and you've done your due diligence to make sure it's not about your ego being challenged.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:31

I think that can be a given.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:33

You've done your due diligence to make sure it's not your ego being challenged.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:36

You're not just complaining about other people having more influence than you, but you see the church going astray and your community, the people you care about, are being led into a false gospel.

Forrest Cooper: 02:12:48

And if you sit and let the world go by and just say nothing, do nothing, care nothing, because it's too much of a, it's too much of an attack on your little safety bubble to say, I don't think this is right and you didn't.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:01

And you're not willing to put in a little bit of work to think about how you're going to say it, whether it's speaking in front of the mirror, reading your Bible, writing it down, or in earnesty.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:10

And so you watch your church go from a body of believers to this, what do you call it?

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:17

What's the right word for it?

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:18

Dual.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:19

Not dualistic, parallel.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:20

Parallelism.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:21

Synchronism.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:22

Synchronistic pseudo Christianity theology of worshiping the self and the divine mother or whatever it is.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:30

And so what do you do?

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:32

Well, you leave the church and then you become nihilistic, and then you become angry.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:35

And then you're now going down your oppressor, oppressed narrative.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:38

And now you're rejecting the gospel because your complacency for that in your midst.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:45

Not with these zealous, zealous in articulation of a templar burning everybody at the stake or the inquisition, but with even the simple act of saying, no, this isn't right.

Forrest Cooper: 02:13:59

And trying to build in yourself the capability to speak and have relationships with people.

Forrest Cooper: 02:14:04

If you just sit by and let it all happen, that, how does that produce.

Forrest Cooper: 02:14:09

How does that produce repentance before the Lord?

Forrest Cooper: 02:14:11

You just sat by and died.

Forrest Cooper: 02:14:14

And it's like that is that kind of weakness that I'm talking about.

Forrest Cooper: 02:14:17

It's not that we need to all pick up our pitchfork and burn people at the stake, but it's that, like, do you really care so little about your community and your family that you're willing to just do nothing because it's too much of a emotional compromise for you to say, I don't think we should be going.

Will Spencer: 02:14:36

Okay, so I agree with you.

Will Spencer: 02:14:39

Let me give you the counter position.

Will Spencer: 02:14:41

The counter position would be that this Marxism in various forms, which we might call modern modernity, right.

Will Spencer: 02:14:53

Maybe a form of soft americanism which prioritizes comfort.

Will Spencer: 02:15:00

We'll call it modernity lives within every church in unconscious ways or barely conscious ways.

Will Spencer: 02:15:10

I have not yet found a church where that's not true.

Will Spencer: 02:15:13

The boldest pastors will admit it, but we'll say.

Will Spencer: 02:15:17

But we'll say that they don't know what to do about it.

Will Spencer: 02:15:19

They see it and they feel it and they see it in the.

Will Spencer: 02:15:22

Even in the relationships of the men in their church where the men are being led around by the women, right?

Will Spencer: 02:15:29

So there's a lot of.

Will Spencer: 02:15:30

It's inside every church.

Will Spencer: 02:15:34

So in comes someone who sees these things, right?

Will Spencer: 02:15:40

Knowing that they are ungodly and they are unrighteous and they are unbiblical and they are unchristian.

Will Spencer: 02:15:51

Definitively, definitively.

Forrest Cooper: 02:15:54

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:15:54

Let's remove all ambiguity.

Will Spencer: 02:15:55

Remove all ambiguity.

Will Spencer: 02:15:56

Right.

Will Spencer: 02:15:57

If you like, the women pastors are a great example.

Will Spencer: 02:16:01

If you.

Will Spencer: 02:16:02

Because it's unambiguous.

Will Spencer: 02:16:04

But there's more, right.

Will Spencer: 02:16:06

That's in some ways the most acceptable, but let's just say unambiguously, it's all those things.

Will Spencer: 02:16:12

And yet, you know that if you push the point, if you really push the point, it will break the church in half at least the church will explode, because, you know, this modernity is everywhere.

Will Spencer: 02:16:27

And so, you know, of course, there is the passage about every vine that bears fruit will be pruned so it can bear more fruit.

Will Spencer: 02:16:34

Right.

Will Spencer: 02:16:34

Of course.

Will Spencer: 02:16:35

I've seen that in my own life.

Will Spencer: 02:16:37

But from the perspective of a man sitting in the pews where you see this, and it's like, I could understand if a man or even a group of men were like, hey, we don't want to be the guys that a church split gets hung around our necks.

Will Spencer: 02:16:54

Right?

Will Spencer: 02:16:54

And so that's the big.

Will Spencer: 02:16:56

That's the big question that I think a lot of men are going to be facing as they begin to wake up to the state of modernity that has infected the christian church.

Will Spencer: 02:17:04

It's like, are we going to be the guys that do this, or do we just step back and let it take its own course?

Will Spencer: 02:17:15

I don't know.

Will Spencer: 02:17:16

I really don't know.

Forrest Cooper: 02:17:17

But, yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:17:19

Are you on the horns of a dilemma where you can either do nothing and let it all turn to rot, and you take the church.

Forrest Cooper: 02:17:26

You are there watching the church become something it is not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:17:30

Or are you.

Forrest Cooper: 02:17:31

Is the other horn of the dilemma you having to like, you being the person who breaks up the church?

Forrest Cooper: 02:17:37

And some people go, and some people, like, this is a true.

Forrest Cooper: 02:17:41

This is a good example of the horns of a dilemma.

Forrest Cooper: 02:17:43

Do you do nothing and let it fall apart?

Forrest Cooper: 02:17:45

Or do you come in like a bull in a china shop and break up the thing and to make one more parallel to gun culture, do you go and do the thing and create the giant response, hoping that it would create some sort of shakeup in the world, risking the Ted Kaczynski answer?

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:05

Or do you hope that your small influence over time doesn't go unnoticed?

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:14

And this is a good place where that cynicism point is addressed, is that the cynical answer is to sit and do nothing.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:24

The wise answer is to not necessarily burn the house down or wait and do nothing, but to navigate the line and do so knowing that, you know, the.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:37

What is it?

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:38

It's not the final solution.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:39

That's a little bit more bad.

Will Spencer: 02:18:41

We're not there yet.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:42

We're not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:42

No, no, that's.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:43

That's not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:43

I don't think there's ever a.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:44

There, like, there's no final solution.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:47

Yeah, there's no silver bullet that comes in.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:51

There will be no, like, complete resolution until Christ comes back at the end.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:56

There will never be any final resolution.

Forrest Cooper: 02:18:57

But what are you doing in yours, in your life and your family that like, that you have influence over and that you do have concern over.

Forrest Cooper: 02:19:06

And are you able to, are you, are you willingly participating as a part of that community, or are you using its growing corruption as a justification to recede into yourself and not participate?

Forrest Cooper: 02:19:17

And, and that, I think, I think the horns of the dilemma are, are very apparent to people, whether you exist in gun culture, masculinity, or the church, which all overlap quite a bit, or you're in a position where, like, if you're, I'm sorry, not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:19:33

Or you're in any of those arenas, both of the horns are not a solution at all.

Forrest Cooper: 02:19:41

They're not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:19:42

And I don't wish to paint this as some, like, oh, it's an easy answer.

Forrest Cooper: 02:19:45

You just do the middle ground.

Forrest Cooper: 02:19:47

It's like, oh, no, you don't just do the middle ground.

Forrest Cooper: 02:19:51

It's, you have to take, you know, at least take one step, at least make a small step, because if you're in that environment where you realize that the church that you're attending is, you know, I don't know.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:05

There's no measurement of hedonism.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:06

We don't have like a seven on the hedonism scale.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:09

But there is a decision that you have to make a decision, because choosing to make no decision is choosing the weaker option and the destructive.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:20

Not the destructive, but the breakup of the church has its consequences.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:23

And it's like revolution.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:25

So the difference between these two horns is revolution and reformation.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:28

And this language comes up in theology.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:31

We've talked about it before.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:32

But the problem with revolution is you either end up with revolution is the cause, it is the end goal.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:39

And then you get Bolshevik ism and you get, like, the Leninist and no, sorry, Trotsky.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:45

And you get kind of this russian idea of, like, perpetual revolution until we achieve utopia.

Forrest Cooper: 02:20:50

And the problem with revolution, we talk, we can, you can point it, bring up the american versus the French Revolution, you can bring up, you know, the age of revolutions.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:00

Just to be clear.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:01

It's great to come in and smash everything.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:03

But if you have, if you're not actually, if you're not contending evil with good, you're just doing the evil, and that's hedonism.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:12

You're just doing the evil, but justifying your evil by evil being present everywhere else and the complacency option.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:19

So the challenge with revolution is if you're going to make the hard.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:23

If you're going to, you're going to step down the hard road of revolution.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:26

The hard part of revolution is not the tearing down, but the building up.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:31

And if you're gonna.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:32

If you're gonna take the reformation side, the hard part of reformation is doing nothing and just claiming reformation.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:39

And the.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:41

So, like, the hard part of reformation is that you have to do it consistently over time and make conscious effort, even when you do not have the evidence that you want, because revolution produces great evidence.

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:55

Something happened, something burned down, but are you building up something in its stead?

Forrest Cooper: 02:21:59

No, your revolution was wrong.

Forrest Cooper: 02:22:01

If the other answer is your reformation, you're going to go from the inside and you're going to make changes and you're going to participate.

Forrest Cooper: 02:22:08

Are you actually doing that?

Forrest Cooper: 02:22:10

Or are you sitting in the seat complaining that the deacons are electing blue haired transgender feminists, and you're sitting there going, oh, it's all going to hell.

Forrest Cooper: 02:22:21

I should stop going to church, and I'll stop reading my Bible as well.

Forrest Cooper: 02:22:24

And, you know, I'll stop praying and I'll stop caring, because that is ref.

Forrest Cooper: 02:22:29

That is the.

Forrest Cooper: 02:22:30

That is corrupting reformation.

Forrest Cooper: 02:22:31

That is corrupting it by complacency, laziness, weakness.

Will Spencer: 02:22:36

Yes.

Will Spencer: 02:22:37

And I think the hard part about this is that a reformative.

Will Spencer: 02:22:44

I think that's the adjective version, reformative action righteously taken in alignment with your conscience may still produce disaster.

Will Spencer: 02:22:57

And that's the part that's a little scary.

Will Spencer: 02:22:58

So I'll give you an example.

Will Spencer: 02:22:59

So this conference I was at this past weekend, I met a man who was in line to be the pastor of a church.

Will Spencer: 02:23:08

And he caught the senior pastor plagiarizing whole portions of his sermons.

Will Spencer: 02:23:16

Like, caught red handed.

Will Spencer: 02:23:17

Like, he looked into it, found the evidence, you know, from audio recordings versus, you know, versus.

Will Spencer: 02:23:24

Versus printed text from other pastors.

Will Spencer: 02:23:27

Like, not even a question.

Will Spencer: 02:23:29

And so he was.

Will Spencer: 02:23:30

And I've heard different versions of the story with different sins committed by the pastors.

Will Spencer: 02:23:35

Like, I could have said.

Will Spencer: 02:23:37

I could have said nothing and just let him retire and, you know, whenever that would have happened and had taken over that role.

Will Spencer: 02:23:45

But I was convicted by my conscience that I had to say something.

Will Spencer: 02:23:51

And he went to the pastor personally and brought the evidence and confronted him man to man before it became a whole thing.

Will Spencer: 02:24:01

And then that didn't go well.

Will Spencer: 02:24:03

And then it got run up the flagpole to the elders, who ultimately sided with the pastor and kicked this.

Will Spencer: 02:24:12

Kick this guy out.

Will Spencer: 02:24:13

Hugely devastating for the man's family moving.

Will Spencer: 02:24:18

And it was a really difficult situation.

Will Spencer: 02:24:21

And so, of course, come to find out a couple few years ago, one of those same elders contacts this pastor friend and says, will you please forgive me?

Will Spencer: 02:24:31

Because the pastor who was plagiarizing was in sin other ways, financially, obviously.

Will Spencer: 02:24:35

So a man getting away with it is doing other things.

Will Spencer: 02:24:38

But regardless, there was still a whole two to three year period before that happened, where this guy who did the right thing, did the right and righteous thing, the right and righteous way, was punished and was kicked out.

Will Spencer: 02:24:51

And that had real implications for his family.

Will Spencer: 02:24:53

Almost ended in, you know, almost ended in divorce.

Will Spencer: 02:24:57

Right?

Will Spencer: 02:24:57

Like, because of the stress and the strain and the moving and all this stuff, right.

Will Spencer: 02:25:02

And so he paid the real cost for doing that thing.

Will Spencer: 02:25:07

And so that's the part that makes this so difficult, is that we want to believe as men that doing the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons will lead to the right result.

Will Spencer: 02:25:19

Meaning, not necessarily he didn't do it because he wanted to take the pastor seat right away.

Will Spencer: 02:25:24

He did it because it was the right thing to do, and yet he paid a significant cost.

Will Spencer: 02:25:30

Now, ultimately, God was redeemed, and he gets to stand up right before God knowing that I did the right thing.

Will Spencer: 02:25:37

But the two horns of the dilemma, at least I'm not arguing for this.

Will Spencer: 02:25:43

Understand, at least on the passive side, you're not the one personally paying the cost.

Will Spencer: 02:25:49

This person's being divisive, getting kicked out, slandered, who knows?

Will Spencer: 02:25:54

Losing friends, losing reputation.

Will Spencer: 02:25:56

You're not paying that cost.

Will Spencer: 02:25:58

Right?

Will Spencer: 02:25:59

Versus, if you speak up, even if you speak up for the right thing the right way, and you follow the process, you could still get this hung around your neck.

Will Spencer: 02:26:09

Right?

Will Spencer: 02:26:09

And so that's.

Will Spencer: 02:26:11

That's a tough ask for a lot of people within the church.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:15

Yes, it is.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:17

It is a tough ask, but I'll contrast you with this thing.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:20

Sure.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:22

If you do nothing and commit suicide, did it win?

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:26

No, wait.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:27

Hold on.

Will Spencer: 02:26:27

Slow down there.

Will Spencer: 02:26:29

That escalated quickly.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:30

It escalated quickly.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:31

But to be more thorough on this one, we want an ordered world.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:39

We want something where actions have consequences, where if I do the right things, I get the right outcomes.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:44

And so for this person's situation, and I don't, you know, like, for the person situation, the comfort he gets at the end, in the one hand, is that he was right.

Forrest Cooper: 02:26:58

The temptation is to turn that sense of persecution into about himself.

Forrest Cooper: 02:27:05

And to the man in the arena, that is a challenge.

Forrest Cooper: 02:27:11

And so to the men who are in that arena, not to be a dude jeering in the crowd, it's sort of saying, like, okay, that is a temptation to say, well, I was doing the right thing, and so I'm justified in my persecutions.

Forrest Cooper: 02:27:27

And it's like, well, you're justified in your persecutions, but our glory is not in ourself.

Forrest Cooper: 02:27:33

And so the alternative that I'm saying is, okay, so does this man, this man's going through all these difficulties and he did the right thing and it resulted in his family suffering.

Forrest Cooper: 02:27:49

Does his son look to him and say, okay, I understand the nuances of the description.

Forrest Cooper: 02:27:53

I think you did the right thing, but we're still going to continue to act?

Forrest Cooper: 02:27:55

Are we going to turn this into an open door for nihilism and say, well, if I do the right, even if I do all the right things, I get punished?

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:01

Well, then there are no consequences.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:03

There's no consequences.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:05

Then there is no cause and effect.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:07

There is no cause and effect.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:08

Then we're looking at hedonism because their hedonism is, well, I can do whatever I want.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:13

And we're right back to that original issue of if he, this is a hypothetical, but if he had done nothing, would him and his family still been christians?

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:26

I don't know.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:28

I don't know.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:30

And this is, again, that salvation only God knows kind of question.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:34

But I don't have.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:36

On the other hand, I want to say, like, when you go through those things, suffering produces perseverance.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:42

Perseverance produces character.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:45

Character produces hope.

Forrest Cooper: 02:28:46

And this is again quoting from Paul, this time in Romans, and I'm quoting that because if you had never suffered, because you never stood up for you never believed it, you never did the thing that you said you were convicted to do, then what perseverance would you have acquired?

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:08

What character would have been developed?

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:09

What hope would you have?

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:11

And the death, the sacrifice, might the alternative.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:15

Sacrifice, not sacrifice.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:17

The alternative option might have been the death of hope, that nothing can ever be done.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:22

And so I'm not giving a solution.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:25

And to someone who's looking for a short answer, I'm telling you now, I cannot give to you.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:31

I'm not in that position of authority.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:33

I am not in that.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:34

I do not sit in that seat.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:36

But what I can say is there is the alternative, which is the death of hope, and that is that it all ends in destruction.

Will Spencer: 02:29:46

So, okay, yes, and I get.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:48

Yes, a bit more abstract.

Forrest Cooper: 02:29:50

Trust me, it is a bit more abstract.

Will Spencer: 02:29:52

Well, so, no, I get it.

Will Spencer: 02:29:55

Because if a man is put into that position, let's sit down in his actual seat, when he discovers beyond a shadow of the doubt that not just one sermon but multiple sermons over many years have been extensively plagiarized, meaning there's no question convicted immediately in your heart, concrete, no ambiguity.

Will Spencer: 02:30:19

So in that moment, if you don't, if he hadn't spoken up, I can see that going down a nihilistic direction, because your conscience is going to be jumping up and down on you to say something because you see, right?

Will Spencer: 02:30:34

And so what are you doing to numb your conscience?

Will Spencer: 02:30:37

Are you drinking?

Will Spencer: 02:30:38

Right?

Will Spencer: 02:30:38

Are you, like, how are you pushing.

Will Spencer: 02:30:40

How are you pushing that away?

Will Spencer: 02:30:41

And I can see that going in a nihilistic direction.

Will Spencer: 02:30:46

So, yes.

Will Spencer: 02:30:47

However, and again, I'm not defending this position, I'm just stating it.

Will Spencer: 02:30:53

But there's a sense in which suffering, and maybe again, we can return to Paul.

Will Spencer: 02:31:00

There's a sense in, like, I'm suffering on behalf of my own church, right?

Will Spencer: 02:31:07

And I guess you could probably say that's Paul, that's Christ, et cetera.

Will Spencer: 02:31:12

But I think a lot of men find themselves in this position where they see modernity painted on the walls within their own church in various subtle and acceptable ways.

Will Spencer: 02:31:21

And it's like I have to be the one to speak up into this environment and suffer on behalf of a church and suffer on behalf of saving the pastors.

Will Spencer: 02:31:33

Aren't they the shepherds of my soul?

Will Spencer: 02:31:36

Aren't they supposed to be suffering on my behalf?

Will Spencer: 02:31:38

Why am I going to take the suffering on their behalf?

Will Spencer: 02:31:41

And so I think it's that hierarchical distinction that makes it feel so strange not to say that it's unrighteous or wrong or shouldn't be that way.

Will Spencer: 02:31:49

There's no shoulds here.

Will Spencer: 02:31:50

It's just the feeling of, like, there's a feeling in, like, why am I the one having to take responsibility for this community when it's the pastor who's supposed to be taking responsibility for this, for this community and he's not?

Will Spencer: 02:32:03

And so that's the part that I could see men getting into where it's like this community sin is now falling on me.

Will Spencer: 02:32:12

I guess you can, again, you can say Paul and Christ and all of that, but I think for a lot of men, that's an awkward position to be in, given that they're not men of any authority or status.

Will Spencer: 02:32:21

And it's like, and yet, and then again, we go back to Paul and Christ and all that.

Will Spencer: 02:32:25

So I guess I can talk myself into and then talk myself out of it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:29

But are like, are you a man of no status?

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:32

No.

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:32

You are a member of the church.

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:34

Are you a man of no conviction?

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:35

No.

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:36

You're a member of the church.

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:37

Is that your community, or are you just a bystander watching it happen?

Will Spencer: 02:32:42

So question.

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:43

I mean, like, I think, I think.

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:46

I think I, in this situation, there's a lot of way we can see if anything else, we can at least do a little bit of not ex nylo, but.

Will Spencer: 02:32:58

Ad hominem.

Forrest Cooper: 02:32:59

No, no, not ad hominem.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:00

It's, it's, it's Nicholas Nassim Taleb from reduction.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:05

From reduction.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:07

Reduce.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:07

Like, what are the things that are not the right answer?

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:10

Oh, what are the things that are not the right answer?

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:13

Okay, so we know do nothing is not the right answer.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:16

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:16

You know, we know that burn down the church is not the right answer.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:20

We know that, you know, institute a tribunal might not be the right answer, but we know that becoming a slanderous fool is not the right answer.

Will Spencer: 02:33:31

Yes.

Will Spencer: 02:33:31

So it's gossip is not a good answer.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:34

Gossip is not the right answer.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:35

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:36

And, you know, forsaking your community, not the right answer.

Will Spencer: 02:33:42

Okay.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:43

And so maybe if I, like, I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:47

I am saying I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:49

I do.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:50

I am not equipped to answer this.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:51

I do not know the full thing, but I'm willing to engage in it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:55

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:33:55

And my engagement is such that remove the parts.

Forrest Cooper: 02:34:00

Look, write the options out and remove the ones that are not, that, that betray the gospel, that betray the exhortations placed upon us by Paul and therefore God through the scriptures.

Forrest Cooper: 02:34:16

And start with those and then narrow it down to, well, these are the kind of ways that you won't know how it's going to play out.

Forrest Cooper: 02:34:23

I very seriously doubt that.

Forrest Cooper: 02:34:25

When he thought, well, he said, let's use this example where he witnessed the pastor doing something considered wrong.

Forrest Cooper: 02:34:33

He witnessed the pastor sinning and living inappropriately leading it, not leading, but rather betraying his flock.

Forrest Cooper: 02:34:43

And he went through the right, what was supposed to be the right mechanism of doing it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:34:47

And when he started that path, I very doubtly, I very realistically doubt he expected, well, I'm going to be persecuted at every length and shape.

Forrest Cooper: 02:34:56

He probably didn't expect everything like that.

Forrest Cooper: 02:34:59

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but I wouldn't.

Forrest Cooper: 02:35:01

That seems like a pretty, an assumption that I'd be okay to make for now.

Forrest Cooper: 02:35:05

And what you run into, and I want to start that one, like, by removing the parts that are not options, like the complacency, the ignorance, the turning a blind eye, the aggression, not aggression, but like, you know, destruction or malice, and just start with those and narrow it down and pursue in that direction.

Forrest Cooper: 02:35:31

I think that's how it started.

Forrest Cooper: 02:35:33

That's the only thing I can look at is just even because I could imagine being in that position where then the persecution turns into self righteousness.

Forrest Cooper: 02:35:44

And we see in Paul where he talks about how many times he was persecuted for what he did, but he persisted.

Forrest Cooper: 02:35:57

He persisted and he persisted in faith.

Forrest Cooper: 02:36:00

And for some people, it will involve leaving the church.

Forrest Cooper: 02:36:03

The hardest part of that whole story to hear is the divorce being on the table.

Forrest Cooper: 02:36:10

Why don't you just let it go?

Will Spencer: 02:36:13

It was his wife who was not, who was having real trouble and was withdrawing from him and all that.

Will Spencer: 02:36:18

It wasn't really, there was no attorneys contacted or anything like that.

Will Spencer: 02:36:23

The whole stress of the entire situation just caused her to really withdraw.

Will Spencer: 02:36:27

And his response to that was not appropriate.

Will Spencer: 02:36:29

And they were like, oh, are we even going to make it?

Will Spencer: 02:36:31

It was like that.

Will Spencer: 02:36:31

It wasn't like she lawyered up or anything.

Forrest Cooper: 02:36:34

At least you can ask the question, but then you have, what is your answer going to be as a married man?

Forrest Cooper: 02:36:41

You are going to face questions where you go, do we want to do this anymore?

Forrest Cooper: 02:36:45

And sure, you can blame the divorce rate or feminism on how quickly it is for women to leave the home with what looks like scot free economically, but there are scars that are not seen.

Forrest Cooper: 02:36:58

And you can, this goes all the way back to what we were talking about earlier, and it's one of those things that probably is an antidote to the nihilistic approach, antidote to the red pill.

Forrest Cooper: 02:37:12

Nihilism is you can go and tell me that everything in the world is wrong.

Forrest Cooper: 02:37:17

We are living an absolute clown world.

Forrest Cooper: 02:37:19

Everything that is good is considered evil.

Forrest Cooper: 02:37:21

Everything that is righteous is considered, is disdained.

Forrest Cooper: 02:37:25

You can, if you can, if you can tell me that the situation that you're living in is one where literally everything that is up is down, except for gravity, because then we'd be dead.

Forrest Cooper: 02:37:37

And is that a justification for the abandonment of the road?

Forrest Cooper: 02:37:44

If you say yes, you have already made your decision that you do not wish to do what is right.

Forrest Cooper: 02:37:51

And you can say, because I want to bring this up, bring it up in a finalish, not a final point, but a big worldview challenging issue is there are plenty of stories in the Bible where the one who is doing the righteous thing, who is living righteously, is completely alone or feels completely alone.

Forrest Cooper: 02:38:22

Elijah, Elisha, Noah, you have Paul, to some extent, you have Jesus, even as an example, known as righteous, not one.

Forrest Cooper: 02:38:32

And then there's Jesus.

Forrest Cooper: 02:38:33

And so.

Forrest Cooper: 02:38:35

And so there is this consistency where you may enter into a time where you do feel alone.

Forrest Cooper: 02:38:45

And all of those times, the men are commanded that their sense of righteousness and their belonging is not granted by where they're at their persecution.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:00

They're even.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:01

They're even, um.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:03

Even their identity of being the persecuted is stripped of them, where they can't just claim I am the only righteous person.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:10

And this goes back to the story of job, where he was a good man.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:16

He was what you would consider he was considered.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:20

The stories that are told about him, that he wasn't, by no means of his own, doing the wrong thing.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:26

And all of this happened to him, and everybody rejects him, and his wife is condemning him, but.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:32

And he goes before God, and.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:34

And he says, God, what.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:36

What's the deal?

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:38

You know, this isn't right.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:39

And God's responses.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:41

I am God.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:42

Were you there at the creation of the earth?

Will Spencer: 02:39:44

Deal with it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:45

It's.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:46

It's not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:47

Well, I think to some people, it might have to be.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:50

Deal with it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:51

Ultimately, that is.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:52

It is a very short way of saying it, but it is.

Will Spencer: 02:39:55

It's more than that.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:57

It is.

Forrest Cooper: 02:39:57

Do you even have access to that which is good except for from me?

Will Spencer: 02:40:02

No.

Forrest Cooper: 02:40:03

So, you know, trust in my promises.

Forrest Cooper: 02:40:08

Remember that I am God, and put your faith in me.

Forrest Cooper: 02:40:12

And then.

Forrest Cooper: 02:40:13

And what do we see?

Forrest Cooper: 02:40:14

Time and time again, the long, dark night of the soul peels back.

Forrest Cooper: 02:40:18

And it's not about the reward that they're given at the end.

Forrest Cooper: 02:40:22

David did not end his life in glory and splendor, but he still was right before God, and he still pursued that which was right.

Forrest Cooper: 02:40:32

And so the men who have built an altar to themself on their self righteousness, thinking that they are the ones who are being persecuted because of their self righteousness, come to a shallow end.

Forrest Cooper: 02:40:47

And so the story that you're told, I think the story that you tell is a hard one to hear, and it's a hard one to hear because we want our leaders, whether it's in the church, in the military, or in our government, to be strong, upstanding men.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:05

But that's not always the case.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:08

And that we look through history, and that is human history.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:11

But what persists is nothing.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:14

Governments, empires, armies, kingdoms, physical churches, organizations, even though I'd like to see cathedrals back because they're pretty cool, even though those things are not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:25

Which persists?

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:26

The true church is what persists between God and man.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:30

And I know that there's a temptation, kind of like almost an inverse of what we were talking at the beginning, to say, I am being persecuted, therefore I am righteous.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:41

And that is where I think that is an entirely.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:45

That is the weakness speaking and not the strength.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:48

That is the self worship speaking.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:50

And not Christ.

Forrest Cooper: 02:41:52

And so for the man who suffers persecution from his church because he did what was right, he has the very real temptation against his circumstances to say, I was righteous, look what I did.

Forrest Cooper: 02:42:11

And yet, at the beginning, if he goes all the way back to where he started, he didn't produce the righteous concern for justice, that he didn't even produce the concern for justice which drew him to conviction, to challenge the leadership, to say, what you're doing is wrong, that very concept of righteous judgment, that very concept of justice was given to him by God.

Forrest Cooper: 02:42:38

And if he tries to take it on as his own self righteousness, we know what destruction that produces.

Will Spencer: 02:42:44

So, boom.

Will Spencer: 02:42:45

That is awesome.

Will Spencer: 02:42:47

That is awesome.

Will Spencer: 02:42:48

Because that conviction of righteousness that you have is a gift.

Will Spencer: 02:42:53

It's not yours.

Will Spencer: 02:42:55

So what are you going to do with this gift that's been given to you?

Will Spencer: 02:42:59

It's not even yours to begin with.

Will Spencer: 02:43:01

And so, yes, so placing that righteousness in God and recognizing that if you see something, say something, not because it's you, but because you're being shown something as a gift from above you, and what are you going to do with this?

Will Spencer: 02:43:20

That's a blessing.

Will Spencer: 02:43:22

To be able to have this conviction puts an entirely different spin on it because it would be easy to say, I see this thing that's wrong and I need to go crusading to fix the wrong and invest too much of your own identity into it versus, wow, what a gift that I've been given to be able to perceive this wrong and to be able to speak into it and to even care.

Will Spencer: 02:43:46

And how can I carry this with love and gratitude and open heartedness and brotherly affections into this.

Will Spencer: 02:43:58

Praise God for this.

Will Spencer: 02:44:01

And then also to avoid the ditch on the other side of the road, which is also begin to develop a martyr identity with it.

Will Spencer: 02:44:11

To joyfully go to the cross but not go running because you get to be hanging up in front of everybody.

Forrest Cooper: 02:44:19

Yeah, mar that.

Forrest Cooper: 02:44:23

We have certainly seen martyrdom turned into an idol.

Forrest Cooper: 02:44:27

We have seen every good thing that God has created on this earth.

Forrest Cooper: 02:44:31

Man has found a way to turn into a false idol.

Will Spencer: 02:44:34

Amen.

Will Spencer: 02:44:34

So I really like how we were talking about the ditch on either side of the road with the ditch on one side of the road being crusading in your own self righteousness and the ditch on the other side being martyrdom.

Forrest Cooper: 02:44:50

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 02:44:51

Perfect capsule.

Forrest Cooper: 02:44:53

I like the way you're doing that.

Will Spencer: 02:44:56

It's a tough spot that I think a lot of men find themselves in.

Will Spencer: 02:45:00

And I think the thought, because I can identify both tendencies within myself, I can absolutely recognize within myself the tendency to bring the righteous hammer of justice down.

Will Spencer: 02:45:10

I may have been guilty of doing that once or twice, but one of the things that I'm also acutely aware of within myself is, like, I shouldn't joyfully.

Will Spencer: 02:45:20

I don't know how to say this.

Will Spencer: 02:45:22

Like, I shouldn't joyfully go, look, looking forward to my own persecution because it proves I'm right.

Will Spencer: 02:45:28

Like, how to avoid that tendency of, we'll say the ego.

Will Spencer: 02:45:31

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 02:45:32

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:45:32

I mean, it's, you know how, like, people like to take a spectrum and then bend it like a horseshoe.

Will Spencer: 02:45:36

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:45:37

You know, so, and this is kind of what you see here is if your spectrum on the one side is the crusader and the other one is the martyrdeh.

Forrest Cooper: 02:45:45

If you bend that into a horseshoe at where they touch at the end is the self righteousness aspect.

Will Spencer: 02:45:52

There you go.

Forrest Cooper: 02:45:55

I am a martyr for my own self righteousness.

Forrest Cooper: 02:45:59

It's like there's a hook in there.

Forrest Cooper: 02:46:03

We are not righteous by our own means.

Forrest Cooper: 02:46:05

And then the crusader is, I am the arbiter of justice, bringing the sword to everything.

Forrest Cooper: 02:46:10

And it's like that sword was not handed to you in vain.

Forrest Cooper: 02:46:16

So if you're a magistrate, you don't wield that in vain.

Forrest Cooper: 02:46:21

When you start wielding in vain, then when the wicked rule, the innocent suffer, and then the martyr being, well, Christ didn't die for my sins.

Forrest Cooper: 02:46:34

I died for the world's sins.

Forrest Cooper: 02:46:36

It's like, yeah, okay.

Forrest Cooper: 02:46:38

See how far that goes in your.

Forrest Cooper: 02:46:40

We know where that ends.

Will Spencer: 02:46:42

Mm hmm.

Will Spencer: 02:46:43

Well, you mentioned with the sword being handed the sword in vain.

Will Spencer: 02:46:48

As a man who has wielded the modern equivalent of truly fine swords.

Will Spencer: 02:46:56

Right.

Will Spencer: 02:46:57

You understand the need to even be less self righteous in the wielding of that and the more godly in the wielding of that.

Will Spencer: 02:47:07

We started out the conversation referencing some of the political topics that we have going on right now, particularly Israel and Palestine.

Will Spencer: 02:47:13

And you and I kicked around a couple ideas.

Will Spencer: 02:47:15

So the need to be righteous in your wielding of violence is even more important because we're talking about the sort of one's own self righteousness in a church context, going against heterodox, heretical, pick your term.

Will Spencer: 02:47:32

Doctrines.

Will Spencer: 02:47:33

Right.

Will Spencer: 02:47:33

Whatever.

Will Spencer: 02:47:35

But now we're actually talking about scenarios where human lives are on the line, potentially millions of them.

Will Spencer: 02:47:40

We're talking about a very different category of subjects.

Forrest Cooper: 02:47:43

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 02:47:44

And I think we can start off on the right foot by recognizing that we approach these topics with a measure of humility, because the unsanctimonious anger fighting that goes on whether it's on x or social media of any sort.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:04

I think the part that gets most disturbing is the willingness of people to call to violence, knowing full well that they will have no application in it.

Will Spencer: 02:48:10

The willingness.

Will Spencer: 02:48:11

Oh, yeah.

Will Spencer: 02:48:12

So people to.

Will Spencer: 02:48:13

People will start talking trash about doing violent things and they're just like a literal keyboard warrior.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:20

Yeah, I mean, I.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:21

The.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:22

I know the word keyboard.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:23

The phrase keyboard warrior is used in, as a pejorative.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:28

It's an insult to somebody.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:29

And some people fit the bill.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:31

Yes, fair.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:33

But the issue with the Israel, the Israel Palestine thing is you kind of have not just two ditches, but three ditches.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:43

And the one of them is the two obvious ones are like, are you pro Israel?

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:49

Are you pro Palestine?

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:50

And then the third one is, I'm pro nothing.

Forrest Cooper: 02:48:52

And you're like, you know, okay, like, that is a tough.

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:02

I think that's where those kind of.

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:03

Those three extremes go.

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:05

It's like, well, are you pro Israel?

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:07

Are you pro Palestine?

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:09

Or are you just abdicating from it?

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:14

You know, like I.

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:15

And I.

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:15

And that is couched in a statement where I can have my opinions, but I don't have to always say them.

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:22

Like, I don't, I don't, I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 02:49:24

There's wisdom in knowing when to speak and when not to speak.

Will Spencer: 02:49:29

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 02:49:29

Because I do see.

Will Spencer: 02:49:30

I do see.

Will Spencer: 02:49:33

I try to make it a point.

Will Spencer: 02:49:35

It's almost a personal policy that I don't talk about the things that everyone else is talking about on social media, that as soon as everyone starts talking about anything, I don't say a word because I see too much shepherding of the herd mentality into failing the social media iq test one way or another.

Will Spencer: 02:49:55

Like, collapse into a position publicly so the algorithm can sort you and who knows how.

Will Spencer: 02:50:00

That's all being logged.

Will Spencer: 02:50:02

But one thing I definitely have noticed is the three buckets that you're talking about where you have the really hardcore pro Palestinians, the really hardcore pro Israel, and then you have.

Will Spencer: 02:50:13

And then I don't know if it's nihilism, but then you have the.

Will Spencer: 02:50:16

Then you have the withdrawalism where it's like, just let them.

Will Spencer: 02:50:19

Just let them fight it out.

Will Spencer: 02:50:21

And I can understand american isolationism.

Will Spencer: 02:50:25

I can understand Americans saying, like, why are we even getting involved in this in the first place, whether in terms of our time and attention or money?

Will Spencer: 02:50:31

Like, I can understand that argument, but that's not what people are saying.

Will Spencer: 02:50:36

There's a nihilistic, like, if they got a fight to the death, let them die.

Will Spencer: 02:50:40

And I don't think that's the right answer either.

Forrest Cooper: 02:50:42

No.

Forrest Cooper: 02:50:43

I think Lindsey Graham recently got pretty aggressively lambasted for calling this a religious war.

Forrest Cooper: 02:50:52

And that's tied with, on the one hand, he's saying that the war between Israel and Palestine is not just political, it's religious.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:04

And there is certainly some truth to that.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:06

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:07

I mean, there is.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:08

There is certain.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:09

There is.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:10

You can't say that your religious leaders are calling for the death of the other population because on the basis of religion and say that it's, there's not a religious aspect to it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:18

But that also varies on how you define religion, because religion is the thing that each one of us, whether we call ourselves Christians, Muslims or atheists, where do we originate, our concept of morality?

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:30

And so fundamentally, every war is a religious war.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:35

It's just, I mean, so the communist takeover of countries is a religious war.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:41

They're just, you will, you will submit to the God of government.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:44

And so he's not wrong.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:47

It's that.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:49

What does that imply?

Will Spencer: 02:51:51

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:51

And what does that imply?

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:53

And what are you, what are you saying about that implication now?

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:57

I am not a senator.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:58

I am not a.

Forrest Cooper: 02:51:59

I am not a member of the House of Representatives.

Forrest Cooper: 02:52:02

And so I can agree that the war that we're seeing happen in between Israel and Gaza, between the government of Israel and the pseudo government of Hamas, is not only a political war, but also a religious war.

Forrest Cooper: 02:52:20

And as religious people, we're not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:52:24

We have to.

Forrest Cooper: 02:52:25

When we see things like this, we're faced with what do we believe and what do we understand and what do we know and how does that apply to our lives?

Forrest Cooper: 02:52:32

So it's not like the Milquetoast issue is to make no decision, is to have no intention of answering it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:52:41

Just your only answer is no answer whatsoever.

Forrest Cooper: 02:52:44

But that is also matched with humility.

Forrest Cooper: 02:52:46

And I wish there was an easy way to approach it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:52:49

But once again, we're talking about possibly millions of people's lives here.

Will Spencer: 02:52:53

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 02:52:53

Well, I think the challenge with describing it as a religious war, particularly that is coming from Lindsey Graham, is that, okay, let's go with that.

Will Spencer: 02:53:04

If it's a religious war, are we saying that all religions are equally valid paths to truth?

Will Spencer: 02:53:10

Like, are we going to go with that?

Will Spencer: 02:53:12

Or are we going with this myth of neutrality?

Will Spencer: 02:53:16

Because if it's a religious war and you're saying one religion is more right than the others or the other, let's just say it's between these two.

Will Spencer: 02:53:23

It's like, well, is there not one religion that's more right than all of them.

Will Spencer: 02:53:27

And does that religion not get a say?

Will Spencer: 02:53:30

And I think that a lot of people in America who would agree with Lindsey Graham and would call it a religious war wouldn't take that extra step to say it is a religious war.

Will Spencer: 02:53:41

And if religion has something to say about it, there is one true religion, and maybe that religion should say something really important to both of them.

Will Spencer: 02:53:47

But people don't go, not in the right way.

Will Spencer: 02:53:50

I mean, like, I don't want to start getting into, you know, George W.

Will Spencer: 02:53:53

Bush ism carrying a cross and wrapped in a flag.

Will Spencer: 02:53:58

I don't want to say that America needs to go riding in like the Christian John Wayne.

Will Spencer: 02:54:03

That's not what I mean.

Will Spencer: 02:54:04

But there is a way to adjudicate this between the two.

Will Spencer: 02:54:08

But they both have something, both these religions have something very interesting to say about Christianity in general, and they define themselves specifically in opposition to it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:54:19

And.

Forrest Cooper: 02:54:20

Which, which religious standpoint, if you want to dig in, the standpoint, theologians, which reli.

Forrest Cooper: 02:54:26

Which I know, I know.

Forrest Cooper: 02:54:29

I had to go there, but.

Forrest Cooper: 02:54:30

Which.

Will Spencer: 02:54:30

I'm glad you did.

Forrest Cooper: 02:54:31

Which religious standpoint are you coming from?

Forrest Cooper: 02:54:34

Are you coming from the religion that is preached in the Old and New Testament, or are you coming from the religion of multiculturalism?

Will Spencer: 02:54:41

Yeah, no, I mean, like, I mean, there.

Will Spencer: 02:54:47

Right.

Will Spencer: 02:54:49

I would say I'm coming from the position of the religion that's preaching the New Testament as the fulfillment of the old, which is one side of that.

Will Spencer: 02:54:59

One side of the conflict would say that the New Testament has nothing to say, and the other side of that would say the New Testament is lying.

Will Spencer: 02:55:08

Right.

Will Spencer: 02:55:09

Amazing how that works, right?

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:11

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:12

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:12

It's a, it's a, it's amazing that both religions that have rejected the New Testament are at war with each other.

Will Spencer: 02:55:19

Go figure.

Will Spencer: 02:55:20

What are the odds?

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:21

What are the odds, right?

Will Spencer: 02:55:22

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:23

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:23

No, it's a.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:25

So we're where.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:28

I am prepared to talk about this, though, where I can, where I, where I don't, I'm not, I don't see myself as an expert in israeli palestinian conflicts.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:40

I've not been to Israel.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:41

I've studied under professors who have lived there.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:44

But even those things could be discredited as credentialism.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:50

And I acknowledge that criticism.

Forrest Cooper: 02:55:53

One thing that I do have experience in is regular versus irregular warfare, rules of engagement and the ethics of the battlefield.

Forrest Cooper: 02:56:03

And, and perhaps more, as a philosopher, it's interesting to look at how we've come to believe certain things about rules of engagement and regular versus irregular warfare, limited versus unlimited warfare as well, because when we watch our movies and we watch our films and we play our video games and we read our books.

Forrest Cooper: 02:56:33

Classic.

Forrest Cooper: 02:56:34

In american christian culture, Lord of the Rings.

Forrest Cooper: 02:56:36

There isn't really a big question when you're reading the Lord of the Rings that Sauron is the bad guy and that the orcs are not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:56:43

They're not.

Forrest Cooper: 02:56:43

The orcs are not the good people.

Forrest Cooper: 02:56:44

Right.

Will Spencer: 02:56:45

Not ambiguous.

Forrest Cooper: 02:56:46

And it's, you know, it's convenient that it's convenient.

Forrest Cooper: 02:56:50

It's not convenient as in a dig on it because the epic are the, you know, the high fantasy story that is the Lord of the Rings is fundamentally a struggle of good versus evil and how that evil is manipulates and twists and it uses temptations and how men are not infallible but they still rise to the occasion in the face of clear and present evil.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:15

And.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:16

But in.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:17

But in the Lord of the Rings, there.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:20

There aren't orc women and children being hit by gondorian bombs and there aren't.

Will Spencer: 02:57:27

Good point.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:28

There aren't, you know, there aren't these, like, bastions of cultural development that Tolkien puts into the orcish population as being this sort of half of the coin.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:43

They're corrupted elves.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:45

They're twisted by the wickedness.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:47

They're people.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:48

There are these, you know, there's the people who have been corrupted and the people who have not been corrupted.

Forrest Cooper: 02:57:55

And so, you know, and that story is a good story and it fits within its.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:01

It talks about the character qualities of these.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:03

These people who rise to the occasion and put themselves through peril to do what is right.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:09

And Frodo has to contend with the temptation of the Ring and.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:14

And Aragorn has to do this and the sun, you know, the line of Alyndial.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:19

And he has to choose to become the kingdom as opposed to run away from it.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:23

And there's all these, you know, these challenges for the character development.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:28

But it's.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:29

It's a, but the Lord of the Rings is, you know, what do you.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:32

What do you see in, when you watch the movies?

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:33

Well, it's the orcs that are burning the villages with the women and children inside.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:38

And it's the, you know, and so, like, that's.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:41

That is what we would call unlimited warfare.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:44

Whereas the.

Forrest Cooper: 02:58:46

The good people in this, the line of men and elves really only have limited warfare at their disposal because everything that they're fighting against is an orc, a troll, a goblin, something that's trying to, you know, something that was once good, that was twisted.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:04

And so they're.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:05

They don't have to distinguish between combatants and non combatants.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:09

And so the difference.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:11

The.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:11

The short difference between limited and unlimited warfare is.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:14

Limited warfare is rules of engagement that distinguishes between combatants and non combatants, legitimate targets and illegitimate targets.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:22

Unlimited warfare, whether it's the guerrilla, whether it's Hiroshima, whether it's these, you know, these.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:29

These scales, in some sense, is warfare against the entire apparatus.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:38

And it can be as ugly as genocide or as not confusing but as.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:44

As morally conflicting as well.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:46

Does the factory that builds a.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:48

Does the tanks count as a target if it's staffed by women and children?

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:53

Does the.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:54

Does the.

Forrest Cooper: 02:59:55

Does the, you know, does the mine, which produces the coal to run the train that is not run by the military but run by the state or run by a private institution, does that count?

Forrest Cooper: 03:00:08

And we've seen that, but we're not.

Forrest Cooper: 03:00:12

Where I have a certain amount of.

Forrest Cooper: 03:00:14

Maybe disdain isn't the right word, of frustration with the way that this gets displayed in social media level discourses is it's not that there isn't room for nuance.

Forrest Cooper: 03:00:26

It's that the audience is treated as if they are incapable of nuance and understanding and considering these things themselves and how this reflects when it ends up on your doorstep.

Forrest Cooper: 03:00:43

And what this looks like when it turns into a corruption on the bureaucratic level, is when the people who are writing the rules of engagement have no consequence or cost or understanding of the rules of engagement.

Forrest Cooper: 03:00:55

And so.

Forrest Cooper: 03:00:57

And so what it looks like, and this can reflect on multiple layers of our society.

Forrest Cooper: 03:01:06

Regardless of whether you live in America or you live in Israel, or you live in Ukraine, or you live in Mongolia, is you have rules of engagement that are determined on a bureaucratic level to some extent, but you also have a right way of acting before your God.

Forrest Cooper: 03:01:23

And if you substitute what is right for what is politically correct, then you have a question to face of when you're put in a position, where do I do what's expedient, or do I do what is right?

Forrest Cooper: 03:01:41

Which do I choose?

Forrest Cooper: 03:01:47

And so to kind of tie this in a little bit closer, the idea of limited warfare, from how we understand it, mostly comes from the 17 hundreds into the 18 hundreds, and the european balance of powers, war.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:02

Most of our understanding of it comes from that era of writing, which also takes place during the enlightenment.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:07

And what we saw is that the era of the enlightenment produced this need, this desire for a balance of power, according to the.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:17

Of the european powers.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:19

At the same time that colonies are popping up all over the world, including everything from Egypt to America and in America, while the hundred Years war.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:31

I'm sorry.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:32

While.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:33

Was it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:34

Well, the.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:35

Was it the seven Years War?

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:36

I believe it's.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:37

The seven Years war was going on in Europe between the English and the French.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:41

America was encountering the french and indian war, and those wars were not fought exactly the same way.

Forrest Cooper: 03:02:47

And undergirding a lot of that was Catholics versus Protestants, was Christians of this community, versus Christians of that community, which was the French versus the English, was american settlers versus this native american group in conjunction with the Acadians, which were french settlers.

Forrest Cooper: 03:03:06

And so what you saw is what we see in this desire, what I think that I've observed in this desire to institute rules of engagement in limited warfare is to contain the scale of destruction down to a measure where we can essentially negotiate our battles with minimal force.

Forrest Cooper: 03:03:28

But what you realize on the battlefield is that the number of deaths necessary to create an overwhelming victory on either side isn't very high.

Forrest Cooper: 03:03:40

roup of a thousand men versus: 1000

Forrest Cooper: 03:03:50

That's: 1700

Forrest Cooper: 03:03:54

Or in other words, not only that is not the normal in limited warfare.

Forrest Cooper: 03:03:58

In limited warfare, a mass casualty experience is typically something like 10% of your.

Forrest Cooper: 03:04:02

Of your force.

Forrest Cooper: 03:04:04

If you got 30 dudes and you got three people down, you're already at a mass cal experience.

Forrest Cooper: 03:04:08

Mass cal mass casualty.

Forrest Cooper: 03:04:10

And so in american military doctrine, a mass casualty is typically enough to consider canceling the mission, especially during the global war on terror.

Forrest Cooper: 03:04:20

So, again, if you're going out with three dudes, or 30 dudes, and three of them get injured but aren't dead, the mission's over.

Forrest Cooper: 03:04:28

Your objective is no longer to finish everything unless it's within achievable.

Forrest Cooper: 03:04:32

And there's officers and there's all these different arguments, but now there's a major objective has shifted from whatever it was to now exfilling and refitting and doing it again.

Forrest Cooper: 03:04:45

Napoleon was made famous during his era because this idea of the balance of power wars had manifested in the french military to these what accounted to, like, sort of political skirmishes on their borders.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:01

And then Napoleon was like, no, we're going to win.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:04

We're going to crush them.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:05

We're going to defeat our opponents.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:06

There will be no so much so that they cannot retaliate tomorrow.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:10

And he stepped, he didn't.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:13

He challenged the.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:15

He had challenges with, like, limited versus unlimited war on his own front.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:19

But that was a distinction that he produced in that era, which to some people was considered ungentlemanly, but then he was the first french emperor.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:27

So your ungentlemanliness can go fly a kite.

Will Spencer: 03:05:30

Results speak for themselves.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:32

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:33

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:34

So in all of these things being wrapped together, and we're talking about limited warfare.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:39

Limited warfare is the ideal, but it is not the reality.

Forrest Cooper: 03:05:42

And just because the reality of warfare includes the extensions into unlimited warfare, where maybe a government hires mercenaries, which it can disavow, to go burn a village with women and children in it and then disavows them, maybe providing a pension, who knows?

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:03

Or safe harbor, can then say, look, that wasn't our armies that do it, but your armies still need to face our armies while your armies are starving.

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:13

And the grand strategy looks different than what we would like to see in Lord of the Rings.

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:20

And so when you're looking at conflicts between people and violence, there is a.

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:26

There is a.

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:26

There's the temptation of cynicism to say, well, this is just how it is that, you know, there's the temptation of cynicism that says, this is just how it is that, well, war is hell, and we might as well go to hell while doing it.

Will Spencer: 03:06:38

Mm hmm.

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:39

And that is bloodlust.

Will Spencer: 03:06:41

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:41

So, you know, and.

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:43

But the.

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:43

But the solution to that is, well, when you die, you will go before God, and then that gives men reason for constraint.

Forrest Cooper: 03:06:50

And it also, there, it also comes at a very aggressive negation to the kind of baby killer mentality that was prominent maybe ten years ago, maybe 15 years ago, which is this, you know, every soldier is a baby killer.

Forrest Cooper: 03:07:04

It's like, well, then you've never met one, because those people who are making that decision to go there are making conscious decisions on the ground.

Forrest Cooper: 03:07:11

And when they make decisions, you can't condemn everybody for the actions of a few.

Will Spencer: 03:07:16

That's right.

Will Spencer: 03:07:17

What's interesting about that, before I take the idea a little further, is the difference between the Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones is that Game of Thrones actually has an unlimited warfare option, which is the dragons.

Will Spencer: 03:07:31

The dragons are pure unlimited warfare, which is the giant distinctive.

Will Spencer: 03:07:35

And the Lord of the Rings has no such thing.

Will Spencer: 03:07:37

In fact, the Lord of the Rings actually has a giant deus ex machina army, which is Saruman's forces that he raises up out of the ground.

Will Spencer: 03:07:49

Literally just pulls him up out of the ground.

Will Spencer: 03:07:51

I need an army.

Will Spencer: 03:07:52

I don't know.

Will Spencer: 03:07:52

Where are they?

Will Spencer: 03:07:53

Down on the ground.

Will Spencer: 03:07:54

There you go.

Will Spencer: 03:07:54

Got an army.

Will Spencer: 03:07:56

But it serves a purpose.

Will Spencer: 03:07:58

But that's a really good distinction in that there isn't a lot of moral gray area that takes place in the Lord of the Rings, and that's part of the appeal.

Will Spencer: 03:08:12

The moral gray area, I guess I would say that takes place through the Lord of the Rings story is in the heroes with having to step up and do the hard things as they encounter.

Will Spencer: 03:08:22

We might say the heroic, though not the moral gray area within themselves.

Will Spencer: 03:08:26

And they have to overcome it.

Will Spencer: 03:08:27

There's no moral gray area in the battle.

Will Spencer: 03:08:30

Right.

Will Spencer: 03:08:30

Because it's pure evil.

Will Spencer: 03:08:34

It's pure evil downstream from, like, morgoth and all that stuff.

Will Spencer: 03:08:37

So, and that's what, that's what lends the story a certain clarity and a didactic nature for men to read and to realize their own heroism is that we recognize the moral gray area and the need to choose within ourselves.

Forrest Cooper: 03:08:50

Yeah, but the moral gray area of Lord of the Rings is not gray to the reader, but is the reader gets to experience and observe the characters navigating it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:09:00

Like, for example, when Frodo or Aragorn are tempted to take on the ring and solve the world's problems.

Forrest Cooper: 03:09:07

The reader knows that it's not gray because he knows that the ring is evil.

Forrest Cooper: 03:09:11

But the character that is in the book or in the movie is experiencing the process of navigating the gray area.

Will Spencer: 03:09:20

Yes.

Will Spencer: 03:09:21

Viscerally.

Will Spencer: 03:09:23

That's Frodo's whole deal, right.

Will Spencer: 03:09:28

Whether he's going to give in to the temptation of the ring or give up at least.

Will Spencer: 03:09:33

And then at the end he gives into the temptation of the ring, of course.

Will Spencer: 03:09:36

But it's more that, yeah.

Will Spencer: 03:09:39

Okay, so versus reality, where the moral gray area, where you make a really good point, there is no orc culture.

Will Spencer: 03:09:47

There is no orc village.

Will Spencer: 03:09:48

Right.

Will Spencer: 03:09:50

Theyre just pure evil bad, wicked twistedness.

Will Spencer: 03:09:54

Versus the reality is even someone you may be tempted to describe as pure evil bad, or at least a whole people, I think we can probably, in many cases point to individuals and say, yeah, this individual who committed this atrocity, whatever village they come from doesnt really matter.

Will Spencer: 03:10:11

But when youre talking about wiping out an entire people, the bloodlust manifesting on social media one way or another, right.

Will Spencer: 03:10:19

That's when, that's when it's like, well, it's not so simple.

Will Spencer: 03:10:22

You can't just call you can't just call a people group, orcs and think that these two things map to each other.

Will Spencer: 03:10:29

But social media went there real quick.

Forrest Cooper: 03:10:32

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:10:32

And because it pleases the ego, there is, it goes back to what we were talking about a while ago.

Forrest Cooper: 03:10:42

It serves the righteous that sense of need for justice.

Forrest Cooper: 03:10:46

But it goes awry when it replaces justice as something created by God, by his own character and replaced with, I am the one offended, therefore I have my infinite right to vengeance.

Will Spencer: 03:11:03

So that's.

Will Spencer: 03:11:05

Yes.

Will Spencer: 03:11:05

And a lot of people adopted that posture.

Will Spencer: 03:11:09

Well, it's very common for people these days on social media to adopt that posture one way or another.

Will Spencer: 03:11:18

Right.

Will Spencer: 03:11:19

And that's almost the core, the chief temptation of social media, at least Twitter or X.

Will Spencer: 03:11:24

I don't know about Facebook so much anymore, but certainly the culture of Twitter lately has become crusading in one's own righteousness.

Will Spencer: 03:11:33

To the point like, hey, raising my hand.

Will Spencer: 03:11:35

Guilty is charged from time to time, right?

Will Spencer: 03:11:37

So that's all.

Will Spencer: 03:11:38

Not.

Will Spencer: 03:11:38

There's no accusation to the point where when someone isn't crusading in their own righteousness, it appears as weakness.

Will Spencer: 03:11:45

Like, how dare you crusade in God's righteousness.

Will Spencer: 03:11:48

Who do you think you are?

Will Spencer: 03:11:49

This is the.

Will Spencer: 03:11:49

This is the our righteousness feel.

Forrest Cooper: 03:11:52

Well, yeah, it's the, you know, social media is now one group, people versus another group of people, with a third group of people tut tutting everybody else.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:02

And it's like, oh, interesting.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:05

You know, tut.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:05

Ah, tut, tut, tut, tut.

Will Spencer: 03:12:08

How dare you?

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:09

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:09

Or it's, you know, what is it?

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:11

So, so social media is not necessarily where cooler heads prevail.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:15

It's where people lecture each other about being cooler heads.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:19

I know, I quite heated about it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:21

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:22

But no, I think we can.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:25

But it is important here to make another distinction, because philosophers do nothing but make distinctions.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:32

But that is, there is what's happening in the world, and then there is what's happening on social media.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:38

And social media reflects the heart of people.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:43

And what's happening in Israel and Gaza is not the same thing as what's happening on social media.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:50

But there is a real concern, and I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:53

And I think.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:53

I think.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:54

I think it's nearly universal.

Forrest Cooper: 03:12:56

Maybe not, but I'm saying, I think because I'm willing to sort of, kind of bet on it, but I'm not.

Forrest Cooper: 03:13:04

It's not something that I would state with, like, a theological stake in the ground, but I think that the concern that people have in social media is that what is represented on social media will become real life.

Will Spencer: 03:13:15

Yes.

Will Spencer: 03:13:15

Okay.

Will Spencer: 03:13:16

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 03:13:18

What do you mean?

Will Spencer: 03:13:18

Like, what.

Will Spencer: 03:13:19

What is represented on social.

Will Spencer: 03:13:20

What specifically do you mean?

Forrest Cooper: 03:13:23

So there's a.

Forrest Cooper: 03:13:24

There's a consistency.

Forrest Cooper: 03:13:26

There's been, since: 2020

Forrest Cooper: 03:13:32

There's a trend on social media for people oftentimes or most often with anonymous accounts to be willing to go onto social media and call for the deaths of other people.

Forrest Cooper: 03:13:43

Oh, yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:13:44

You know, and you see this from ideologies that are caked into the american system.

Forrest Cooper: 03:13:49

Or you see, we'll just, I'll use an example.

Forrest Cooper: 03:13:55

So one of the things that we get to be thankful for at this time in the United States is that all the people who are really good at violence are either gainfully employed in engaging it in some way, shape, or form elsewhere, or are not participating.

Forrest Cooper: 03:14:10

And, and so you look at, this is, you look at school shootings, you, you know, they're, they're, the people who go out and commit school shootings are not typically that very good at what they're doing.

Will Spencer: 03:14:20

Um, including, well, I'm not going to make a joke there.

Forrest Cooper: 03:14:23

Yeah, yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:14:24

But, like, but the point I'm saying is they're not particularly good at the application of force.

Will Spencer: 03:14:29

Oh, that's what I, that's what I was going to say.

Will Spencer: 03:14:30

They're not particularly good at anything else either, is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:14:32

Yeah, well, yeah, sure.

Forrest Cooper: 03:14:34

I, um.

Forrest Cooper: 03:14:35

Yeah, but, but so, like, the people.

Will Spencer: 03:14:38

Who are like, oh, I see what you mean.

Forrest Cooper: 03:14:41

You're not, you're not getting a grandmaster at USPSA going and shooting up a school.

Forrest Cooper: 03:14:47

You're not seeing a guy who is an ex Navy SeAL going out and committing this kind of violence.

Will Spencer: 03:14:52

I see what you mean.

Will Spencer: 03:14:53

Okay.

Will Spencer: 03:14:53

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:14:53

You're seeing, you're seeing people who are isolated initially, you know, like isolated, or they're kind of the stereotypical example.

Forrest Cooper: 03:15:01

But, you know, and it's not less of a tragedy because it's happening.

Forrest Cooper: 03:15:07

It's, we're at least thankful that the people who are committing that level of violence are not actually that good at it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:15:13

Rather, all the people who are really good at violence are not going onto social media calling for the deaths of republicans or calling for the deaths of Trump supporters or calling for the deaths of liberals or calling for the deaths of the left or whatever.

Forrest Cooper: 03:15:26

They're, they're, they're kind of nothing doing that because they know what violence looks like and the people who have done it well or are good at it know the consequences of calling for such things.

Will Spencer: 03:15:39

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:15:40

You know, and so we're thankful for it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:15:42

And now, but we've seen a scale shift in the Middle east where that some of, some of the people who are participating in that kind of violence are good at it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:15:51

And the concern that is, is represented on social media is that the call to violence that is being found on social media will return to manifest in our very lives.

Will Spencer: 03:16:06

I see, yeah.

Will Spencer: 03:16:08

Because it's easy to make a post about violence on social media.

Will Spencer: 03:16:12

It's a little, in an instant, in a hot take kind of instant.

Will Spencer: 03:16:16

You plug in your 280 characters and hit go.

Will Spencer: 03:16:20

And depending on the algorithm and the influence of the individual, that call to violence could literally echo around the world.

Will Spencer: 03:16:28

And are people really thinking through the consequences of potentially doing that?

Will Spencer: 03:16:35

And I would even say that the risk is on the other side, that there are people that are doing it in full awareness of the potential consequences.

Will Spencer: 03:16:43

And maybe that's what you're saying is that there are people calling for violence, knowing that will echo back on us collectively, if not the individual in question.

Forrest Cooper: 03:16:53

Yeah, I don't, I don't think we're moving away.

Forrest Cooper: 03:16:56

I think we're moving closer to that day, not away from it.

Will Spencer: 03:16:59

I see, yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:17:00

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:17:01

And that is the, and that is a, that is a very real concern that is reflected in the hearts and minds of many people is that we're not moving away.

Forrest Cooper: 03:17:12

We're not deescalating in any way shape reform and the attempts at the end.

Forrest Cooper: 03:17:18

So many of the calls for de escalation of force are coming from authoritarians and plutocrats who are using it as a religious moral high ground to say, let's, you know, we just all need to get along.

Forrest Cooper: 03:17:31

But what they're implying is that you, we all need to get along in my fashion.

Forrest Cooper: 03:17:37

So when we talk about what's going on in, in Israel and Gaza as a religious war, it's not so simple as a mere peaceful solution.

Forrest Cooper: 03:17:50

Because the problem with, let's just say, enforced peace through multiculturalism is that it comes with the absolution of meaning.

Forrest Cooper: 03:18:02

The annihilation of meaning is the right word, the annihilation of meaning.

Forrest Cooper: 03:18:06

So I think what's more important is to address the issue of multiculturalism, is that multiculturalism in the west is this argument that all different religions can get along, we can all get along and we can all, you be a Muslim and I be a Christian, he practices his religion.

Forrest Cooper: 03:18:26

And as long as your religious practices don't impact anybody else, then we're all good.

Forrest Cooper: 03:18:33

But that's not how it works.

Forrest Cooper: 03:18:38

Not only is that not how it works, the only way that it can be achieved by human methods is to annihilate the meaning of your beliefs.

Forrest Cooper: 03:18:50

It's to annihilate, in turn, everyone's belief system, their religion, in this description, their metaphysical worldview, into nothing more than a fashion statement.

Will Spencer: 03:19:00

Okay?

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:01

So, you know, so imagine going to, you know, there, you know, so there's this, um, let's, let's take the example of.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:09

Take two.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:10

Two random into two individuals that are in conflict in the Middle east.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:17

Two, two individuals.

Will Spencer: 03:19:18

Two.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:18

You know, you have a Hamas character and you have a israeli IDF person.

Will Spencer: 03:19:25

Yep.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:26

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:27

And you say, get along.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:30

Okay.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:31

Get along.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:31

Stop bombing each other now.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:33

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:34

We don't want them to destroy each other, but they.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:37

They both share a religious significance to a location.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:43

And in order for them to just get along, the signification of that religious location needs to be annihilated.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:51

But it's not really important.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:53

It's just.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:55

It's just a metaphor, man.

Forrest Cooper: 03:19:58

The Temple Mount is just a metaphor.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:00

The dome of the rock is just an idea.

Will Spencer: 03:20:02

I see.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:02

Or your religious convictions are just your personal ideas.

Will Spencer: 03:20:08

Yes.

Will Spencer: 03:20:08

Okay.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:09

Okay.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:10

So this is approaching it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:11

Not.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:12

This is approaching it from the standpoint, from the position that our religious views hold conviction over our lives.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:21

If they don't, if we don't allow any room for conviction, all you get is that nihilism.

Will Spencer: 03:20:26

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:27

And so with.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:29

You have.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:30

Your worldview has to.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:33

Cannot simply be that we need to get along, that all roads lead to Rome, that all belief systems are the same.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:41

They can't all be the same.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:42

They can't all have equal value.

Will Spencer: 03:20:44

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:45

Because one, what happens when they can, it's.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:48

Well, one, it's not realistic.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:49

What happens when they conflict?

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:50

You know, what happens when you get the religious.

Forrest Cooper: 03:20:55

A religious supremacy clause within some sect of a group that says people of our height, people only over 6ft tall are.

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:08

No one over 6ft tall is as good as anyone or, I'm sorry, you must be above 6ft tall to be a holy one.

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:14

Everyone above, you know, like.

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:16

And we, and we place meaning and value on the, on the height, you know, then you got the bed of Procrusteus and you got all these other issues going on.

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:23

But like, this is an absurd example, but you look at it in, in our worldview where it's.

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:30

You could do like supremacy arguments all day long and they're actually kind of tired and boring.

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:36

What you really run into the issue of is the idea of multiculturalism on its own face is built on the.

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:43

Is built on the foundation that none of your personal beliefs have any relevance to your life.

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:47

The only thing that matters is economy, materialism and communal good, whatever that is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:54

But who gets to determine communal good?

Forrest Cooper: 03:21:56

Well, it's the monarchs of multiculturalism.

Forrest Cooper: 03:22:01

You've just created a new overarching religion that is tut tutting all of the other religions and sometimes bombing them and sometimes policing them to not fight with each other, but they need to get along.

Forrest Cooper: 03:22:14

But they can't get along because they're antithetical to one another.

Forrest Cooper: 03:22:18

And so the very human, real problem here that we're being faced with, the human problem that we're being faced with this issue is that we are in contest between the significance of our belief and how that applies to our lives and how that belief system does that belief system under undergird or build a foundation for how we view other lives.

Forrest Cooper: 03:22:44

And this is one of the reasons why, as a Christian, I'm saying there really is no other worldview that can handle this because Christianity doesn't have infidels.

Forrest Cooper: 03:22:56

It doesn't have the crushing of the non believers.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:00

It is only when you commit crimes against people like you are crimes against Imago Dei, where there is a system by which they are enacted upon.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:12

So a Christian can't go to a Muslim and say, well, you don't believe in my form of Jesus, so therefore I have unlimited warfare application against you.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:23

Although Christians have certainly done this in the past.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:25

And.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:26

And there's no, you know, and there's grounds for.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:30

What is it?

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:31

There's grounds for conviction there, maybe a persecute, not persecution.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:36

But prosecution isn't the right word either.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:38

But there's grounds for issues being presented there.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:42

However, your multicultural prosecution is, it's still like, well, they.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:46

I mean, the crusades were a long time ago.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:48

Okay?

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:48

You know, like, whatever, right?

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:51

But it fundamentally comes down to the question of, what is your system of justice based on?

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:55

Is it on vengeance or is it on justice?

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:57

And we're right back to where we started.

Forrest Cooper: 03:23:59

Where does the origin of justice come from?

Will Spencer: 03:24:03

So I'm listening to you say all this, and I'm smiling to myself because I'm seeing a bunch of different threads that we've been exploring all throughout the conversation, kind of twinning together.

Will Spencer: 03:24:14

So right now I'm reading the case for christian nationalism by Stephen Wolfenhe, which is an excellent book.

Will Spencer: 03:24:20

And the section that I just finished is about the christian civil magistrate having the ability to restrain public professions of other faiths, including atheism.

Will Spencer: 03:24:37

So in a truly christian nation, this is what he proposes.

Will Spencer: 03:24:41

The civil magistrate is oriented towards the christian good, the ultimate highest truth, which is christian truth, and orients people towards that highest truth, which is mediated through the church.

Will Spencer: 03:24:52

So the civil magistrate doesn't take on religious duties, but is informed by the christian religious faith, because the christian religious faith points to the highest good for people, social, you can have inner other beliefs, but social expressions of those beliefs will be prohibited in order to orient the populace towards the christian truth.

Will Spencer: 03:25:18

Right.

Will Spencer: 03:25:18

Okay.

Will Spencer: 03:25:19

In civil practice, it's a great.

Will Spencer: 03:25:22

I really am enjoying the way that he's talking about this.

Will Spencer: 03:25:24

Okay.

Will Spencer: 03:25:25

So as part of this book, he's talking about the gynocracy and the need for robust, masculine christian men to assert a form of Christianity that has been lost.

Will Spencer: 03:25:39

Right?

Will Spencer: 03:25:40

Whether we ever were, whether that form of christian nationalism ever existed before, there were christians that were more upfront about their beliefs being superior and even supreme than we have now, where we all kind of live in this modernist kind of like myth of neutrality.

Will Spencer: 03:25:56

I don't want to force myself upon.

Will Spencer: 03:25:58

Okay, so going back to the question of can weak men be good?

Will Spencer: 03:26:04

We defined good as having the ability to go beyond yourself, the constant pursuit.

Will Spencer: 03:26:12

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:26:14

And then we define good as pursuing goodness.

Will Spencer: 03:26:18

Pursuing goodness, yes.

Will Spencer: 03:26:19

And weakness as the inability or unwillingness to go beyond oneself.

Will Spencer: 03:26:24

Right.

Will Spencer: 03:26:24

And so, and so to kind of put the pieces together, there is a call now amongst christian men in America, particularly evangelicals, will focus on that, to go beyond themselves in their socio political conceptions of the myth of neutrality and actually fight in the public square for the christian faith against other false religions, right?

Forrest Cooper: 03:26:52

Yep.

Forrest Cooper: 03:26:53

Okay.

Will Spencer: 03:26:53

Okay.

Will Spencer: 03:26:54

And so now we're seeing the same struggle manifested on the geopolitical international realm where we would, where the myth of neutrality would have us say, well, we'll let these people work out their religious or cultural differences or their political differences, instead of stepping forward boldly and saying, the christian faith has something to say about this conflict to both of you, and will Christian Menta go past themselves and be strong and step in to that goodness on the international scale?

Will Spencer: 03:27:32

And so it's very interesting we're having this conversation because in the same context, we're talking about christian men, talking about literal physical strength and how there are lots of men that don't want to go beyond themselves in this way.

Will Spencer: 03:27:43

Can a robust, masculine Christianity assert itself in the local, national, and even geopolitical level on behalf of the good of perhaps the entire world?

Will Spencer: 03:27:55

Like, are those the stakes right now?

Forrest Cooper: 03:27:57

So it sounds like a scaling question.

Will Spencer: 03:28:00

Well, yeah.

Will Spencer: 03:28:01

So do I have the ability to assert myself?

Will Spencer: 03:28:04

It's not like immediately going to assert the christian faith on behalf of all of Christendom over in Israel.

Will Spencer: 03:28:10

Like, I'm not getting right, but it's like, it's a question of can a man take dominion over his, over his diethye?

Will Spencer: 03:28:18

Can he take it over his body?

Will Spencer: 03:28:20

Can he take it over his relationships?

Will Spencer: 03:28:22

Can he take it over his home?

Will Spencer: 03:28:23

Can he take it over his neighborhood?

Will Spencer: 03:28:25

Can he take it over his church?

Will Spencer: 03:28:26

Can he take it over his community?

Will Spencer: 03:28:28

Can he take it over his nation?

Will Spencer: 03:28:29

Can he take it over its world?

Will Spencer: 03:28:32

So, like progressive levels of dominion taking, do christian men have it within themselves now today to begin that process?

Will Spencer: 03:28:41

Obviously, it's a big, you know, you got to eat the elephant one, one bite at a time.

Will Spencer: 03:28:45

But when we're having a discussion about whether or not it's even appropriate for christian men to celebrate lifting weights, I think we have a sense of where the dialogue is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:28:58

Okay.

Forrest Cooper: 03:28:58

So I almost see two different arguments being pitted against themselves in this description.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:06

One of them is, get your house in order before you try to fix the world.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:10

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:13

You know, american.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:14

What right do american men who aren't willing to get their own life in order, what right do they have to make statements about a war that's happening on the other side of the world?

Will Spencer: 03:29:26

Sure.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:26

And, you know, and that's, and that's a criticism.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:30

It's an argument in the form of criticism.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:32

And the, the argument that's being made is actually accusatory of the person, of a person not in the room, but it is an accusatory argument saying, I know you are calling for this over here, but you're not even doing it at home.

Will Spencer: 03:29:52

Sure.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:52

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:53

And so.

Will Spencer: 03:29:54

Ad hominem.

Will Spencer: 03:29:54

Almost.

Will Spencer: 03:29:55

But yes.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:56

Well, it sticks a little bit.

Forrest Cooper: 03:29:58

It can be ad hominem.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:00

It can be, but it's not immediately ad hominem.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:02

Yes, but it is a challenge saying.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:08

It is more of a challenge saying, you are calling for justice and righteous dominion over there, but you don't even have it over here.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:17

And so this is like, this is the american, it's not the american nationalist, but it's like, well, I am pro american.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:25

I'm not pro Palestine and I'm pro american.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:27

Well, is that person saying to America that, like, what grounds do you have to stand on?

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:32

Well, China made the same accusation of America.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:34

America made the same accusation of China.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:36

Like, this is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:38

And while I get the argument, the question is, where does it go other than nowhere?

Will Spencer: 03:30:45

Correct.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:47

The other side of the.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:48

So that's one column that's being pitted here.

Forrest Cooper: 03:30:52

I think the other column that's being pitted here is that that challenge is being, is one part of the argument.

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:01

The other part of the argument is, let me, give me, let me get my thoughts together.

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:07

How are we going to even.

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:12

I am a citizen, too, of this world, and I have and God has.

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:17

And through revelation or through logic and through argument and reasoning, we can make observations and we have a duty to act and live.

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:27

So shouldn't we not do it like, shouldn't we not live as the creation go and act?

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:31

And so on the one hand you have the issue of, well, you're not even doing it at home.

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:36

And on the other hand you're saying, yeah, but we should do something.

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:39

Yes, in its simplest form, it's just like, well, we should do something you're bad at.

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:44

It's like, well, you're not wrong.

Forrest Cooper: 03:31:52

And so the christian nationalist argument is not one that I am going to say I'm well versed in, but what I'm seeing being said is the myth of neutrality is that you can be your christian self in private, but then go out into the world and be a heathen like everybody else.

Forrest Cooper: 03:32:13

And it's almost like a medieval idea of the sacred and the profane, except for the medieval idea of the sacred and the profane existed under a sort of, at least as it's told, this sort of universal, loose christian left and right balance and kind of that medieval myth.

Forrest Cooper: 03:32:37

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:32:37

It's like, you know, you have the church and the pope and you have the king and like there's all these things that happen in between, but whatever.

Forrest Cooper: 03:32:41

And so, so the myth of neutrality is that you can be a christian in your home but you should vote for some other religion.

Forrest Cooper: 03:32:55

And that other religion is multiculturalism and that other religion is this like, well, anything goes mentality or whatever is the current thing with the current vengeance structure, the current oppression or the current thing.

Forrest Cooper: 03:33:11

And where I think both of those fall apart is that, well, we don't have, we're not all going in the same direction, me and, me and a person who has, who is adamant for gun control, we don't have, we don't have the same end goal in mind.

Forrest Cooper: 03:33:23

I want free people.

Forrest Cooper: 03:33:25

I want dangerous freedom.

Forrest Cooper: 03:33:27

You want peaceful slavery just to be cruel about it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:33:31

I believe, and I'll be clear on this, support of gun control is support of slavery.

Forrest Cooper: 03:33:37

No, no, in between, because what you're doing, what you're doing is you're going to people and saying, you are not man, you are not human enough to have sovereignty over even your own life.

Forrest Cooper: 03:33:48

That is somebody else's responsibility.

Forrest Cooper: 03:33:50

And so, you know, and you could go through like, well, tyranny and all this other kind of stuff.

Forrest Cooper: 03:33:55

But if I, even if I'm not a magistrate and I go to somebody else and say, you know, well, you're not a human enough to own a gun.

Forrest Cooper: 03:34:03

Is it because they've committed felonies or it's because I don't think they're good enough, they're real enough as people, whatever the word you want to be.

Forrest Cooper: 03:34:13

And that's a bit of a straw man.

Forrest Cooper: 03:34:14

And I admit it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:34:15

I admit it, that the way that I'm presenting it is not the strongest way I could present that argument.

Will Spencer: 03:34:20

I get what you mean.

Forrest Cooper: 03:34:23

And I'm mixing too many things in at the same time.

Forrest Cooper: 03:34:26

And so to kind of tie it back into this christian nationalism of argument, what I think is being said is that if you believe x to be right and you want that to be right in your society, how far does it extend outside of your home?

Forrest Cooper: 03:34:43

And the challenge that we saw recently in Minnesota was that the Walker Arts center hosted a child Family friendly event, which was motten Bailey as an artistic expression.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:00

And that was, that was, you know, that was the Bailey, the, the idea of, like, oh, we're just doing this art thing, but the explicit statement on the website and advertisement that we are going to bring your kids in and we're going to summon demons.

Will Spencer: 03:35:13

Hmm.

Will Spencer: 03:35:14

Wow.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:14

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:15

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:16

Summoning, that's art when we want it to be, you know, summoning the demon Lilith so that we can put it into a little thingy and solve it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:23

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:23

It's like.

Will Spencer: 03:35:24

You're kidding.

Will Spencer: 03:35:25

They said that?

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:26

Yep.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:27

Oh, so we're all going to summon our own personal demon, and it's this, you know, this thing to do with Lilith and this idea of what is it?

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:36

Putting it into a familiar so you can, you know, make friends with your demon and solve your problems.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:41

Yeah, no, it was very explicit.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:43

And then when they were.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:45

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:45

And then when they were challenged, I like, it's just art.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:48

Like, really.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:49

I mean, this is where that goofy meme comes in.

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:51

Like, really, really?

Forrest Cooper: 03:35:53

It might just be art to you, but, like, if we believe in demons, angels and demons and demon possession, that's not something that we want publicly praised in the streets.

Forrest Cooper: 03:36:05

And so if christian nationalism is simply saying you can't summon demons in front of children, then I don't know.

Forrest Cooper: 03:36:13

Like, we would all be for it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:36:15

Well, we'd think we'd all be for it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:36:17

But, but I, and so the suspicion that's present, I think the suspicion that's leveled at christian nationalism, if there's, if we're going to give the suspicion it's due and iron steel man.

Forrest Cooper: 03:36:28

It is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:36:30

I think that you're veiling a authoritarian government through a appeal to religious concern, which isn't very different than what we are already seeing happening.

Will Spencer: 03:36:43

Exactly.

Forrest Cooper: 03:36:44

We need to worship the cult of safety.

Forrest Cooper: 03:36:46

And so we're going to, we're going to, you know, we're going to, we're going to make sure that we're going to punish the churches that don't fly the rainbow flag because we don't want to harm feelings.

Forrest Cooper: 03:36:58

And we're doing it to protect you, and we're doing it, you know, so I think there's some legitimacy to the concern.

Forrest Cooper: 03:37:04

It's that I don't think most of the targeting is all that honest.

Forrest Cooper: 03:37:08

I think.

Forrest Cooper: 03:37:08

I think most of it is just dishonesty, and that's not uncommon.

Forrest Cooper: 03:37:14

So I'm not actually even coming out in defense of even Wolf's version of christian nationalism.

Forrest Cooper: 03:37:20

I haven't read the book.

Forrest Cooper: 03:37:21

I'm not going to go that far.

Forrest Cooper: 03:37:23

But what I do think that he's appealing to people is if you're going to call yourself a Christian, you're going to hold christian values, but then you're going to go to the Senate and you're going to vote against those values, then there's something that's inconsistent here.

Will Spencer: 03:37:37

Yes, I think you make a really good point that everyone's so afraid of masculine christian nationalism because of its authoritarian nature, and yet they don't want to acknowledge that we have feminine gynecotic authoritarianism that is more, quote unquote, loving, intolerant and accepting and hurts less feelings, but is no less oppressive to the human spirit.

Will Spencer: 03:38:04

Right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:38:05

Well, you don't need a, you do not need a PhD to recognize that the very, very, the high priests of tolerance are anything but what they say.

Forrest Cooper: 03:38:13

You know, you don't need, you don't need a PhD, you do not need a doctorate to read Ibram X Kendi's book and recognize that his thesis is that you should give him money.

Will Spencer: 03:38:24

Right.

Will Spencer: 03:38:25

Well, I mean, there are a lot of really smart people that seem to overlook that because they want a piece of the, they want a piece of the money, too.

Will Spencer: 03:38:32

And I recommend everyone go back and listen to my podcast with Jimmy song about fiat ruins everything for more.

Will Spencer: 03:38:37

So it was my episode last week because he talks about how fiat currency creates all these perverse incentives for people to get next to the source of power, next to the money printer, rather than actually produce durable masculine values that masculine value, the production of valuable labor in terms of creation of goods and services, has fallen out of fashion in favor of what he calls rent seeking jobs where you have a middle manager position where your entire life is sucking up to the person above you so that you get the promotion or the pay raise to all this fake fiat cash.

Will Spencer: 03:39:14

Right.

Will Spencer: 03:39:14

And so that's kind of what we're looking at, is people just willfully overlooking the obviously corrupt values of these.

Will Spencer: 03:39:24

Of a lot of the social justice hucksters, because they want to be in the circles of power where they can get access to the money, printer cash, instead of standing up for something difficult and inconvenient and masculine in the public square and saying, no, that's wrong.

Will Spencer: 03:39:40

I won't allow this to happen to my society.

Will Spencer: 03:39:42

And so you can see the fracture points of everything between this, between two different conceptions of reality.

Will Spencer: 03:39:49

Are you worshiping?

Will Spencer: 03:39:50

And I really, really believe this.

Will Spencer: 03:39:52

So I've probably stated this elsewhere.

Will Spencer: 03:39:55

I think that what's going to happen is over the next six to twelve months, effeminacy and weakness will be conquered in the evangelical christian church.

Will Spencer: 03:40:03

Churches may explode, but it'll happen.

Will Spencer: 03:40:06

And then who will be left will be ready to truly take on the next big boss, which is the reality that we live in a world that worships the divine feminine, that worships, that doesn't identify it.

Will Spencer: 03:40:19

But, like, you see this in the gynocracy, you see this in, you know, feminism, you see it in all these different ways that we live in a world right now that is occupied, you know, by some wicked feminine spirit.

Will Spencer: 03:40:30

It's not really feminine.

Will Spencer: 03:40:30

It's just Satan wearing a wig.

Will Spencer: 03:40:32

But christian men and families, but men have to be prepared to take on.

Will Spencer: 03:40:41

And so I think we're getting there.

Will Spencer: 03:40:43

And what we're talking about, all this about, can weak men be good?

Will Spencer: 03:40:47

Right?

Will Spencer: 03:40:47

Can weak men prosecute this spiritual battle?

Will Spencer: 03:40:52

No.

Will Spencer: 03:40:52

No way.

Forrest Cooper: 03:40:54

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:40:54

We going back to the old, old Testament gods.

Forrest Cooper: 03:40:59

Like, we might have conquered some of the spirit of Baal, but have we conquered the spirit of Asherah and Lilith?

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:05

Well, I'm not.

Will Spencer: 03:41:07

That's mysticism.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:08

That's.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:09

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:12

What would be a cool word?

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:13

A demonologist?

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:14

Isn't that like a d and d term?

Will Spencer: 03:41:16

It's probably a real thing, actually.

Will Spencer: 03:41:17

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 03:41:18

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 03:41:18

Asherah.

Will Spencer: 03:41:19

Exactly.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:20

Mm hmm.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:20

You know, it's like, and, and I think the.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:24

The cult of the, the cult of the feminine manifests many ways in our culture right now.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:30

A cult of.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:30

A cult of safety, right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:33

So you can't do that.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:34

It's not safe.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:35

Some things are not safe, but they're good to do.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:39

Executing justice against a violent criminal is not safe.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:44

You know, but executing justice against a violent criminal is not safe.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:49

You try to execute it as safely as possible.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:51

You don't, you know, recklessness in a night raid gets people killed.

Forrest Cooper: 03:41:55

But it's so, so, but the cult of safety would say, don't even do it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:01

Let them get their kicks out or it's not safe.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:07

And it's not.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:08

This is not an appeal to young men's recklessness.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:11

It is a.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:12

It is a, it is a challenge to the cult of safety which says, don't do anything that could cause, that could result in pain, because pain is the only.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:23

Is actually evil, not evil, or suffering is suffering at all.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:31

Itself is not evil, or suffering is evil not the cause of suffering.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:37

And you see the cult of the divine feminine, it's easy to see how do you adjudicate against it?

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:49

And some of it has to be overt, but some of it is very internal.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:53

And this goes back to that man.

Forrest Cooper: 03:42:54

If you're not even willing to face the cult of safety that has controlled your life, then how are you expecting yourself?

Forrest Cooper: 03:43:03

What?

Forrest Cooper: 03:43:04

How many, how many children's lives are sacrificed on your cult of safe, on your altar to the God of safety?

Will Spencer: 03:43:10

Yep.

Forrest Cooper: 03:43:11

You know, and it's, it's.

Forrest Cooper: 03:43:13

You have that, that pull.

Forrest Cooper: 03:43:15

We're not going to just start lighting pyres.

Forrest Cooper: 03:43:19

But are you.

Will Spencer: 03:43:21

Don't tempt me.

Forrest Cooper: 03:43:22

Are you?

Forrest Cooper: 03:43:22

Well, no, but are you.

Forrest Cooper: 03:43:23

Are you, are you sacrificing your children, your future, your church community, on the altar of safety?

Will Spencer: 03:43:32

Safety, comfort, niceness.

Will Spencer: 03:43:36

Right.

Will Spencer: 03:43:37

This is like almost the holy trinity of the divine feminine.

Will Spencer: 03:43:41

Right?

Will Spencer: 03:43:41

Pleasure.

Will Spencer: 03:43:42

That's another one.

Will Spencer: 03:43:42

So maybe there's more than a trinity.

Will Spencer: 03:43:45

So I could probably run this out and.

Will Spencer: 03:43:47

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 03:43:48

How many lives are we willing to sacrifice on those altars?

Will Spencer: 03:43:54

Apparently many.

Will Spencer: 03:43:55

Versus what?

Will Spencer: 03:43:58

Dangerous freedom.

Will Spencer: 03:44:00

This is the real.

Will Spencer: 03:44:02

You froze again.

Will Spencer: 03:44:02

There you are.

Will Spencer: 03:44:04

This is the real challenge that we're facing now.

Will Spencer: 03:44:08

Ultimately, it's a false choice because safety, comfort, niceness and pleasure are really just screens for the hard authoritarianism that's going to come right in behind it.

Will Spencer: 03:44:21

Like it's just, it's just the leading edge.

Will Spencer: 03:44:23

And then behind it was the iron fist and the velvet glove.

Will Spencer: 03:44:27

That's all it is, right?

Will Spencer: 03:44:29

And we see this, you've probably seen this in Minnesota where it's like it's all loving and it's all accepting and it's all friendly and nice and we all just want to get along until Antifa shows up and then it's a very different ballgame.

Forrest Cooper: 03:44:43

Well, to go Old Testament on this one, let's go to go Old Testament on this one.

Forrest Cooper: 03:44:49

When God is leading, very, very physically leading the people of Israel, and they're tempted to worship other gods, whether it's the golden calf or then when they're in Israel or Canaan, and they're tempted to fall into baal worship and Asherah and these things, God is calling them to say, your only security is in me.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:16

Your only safety is in me.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:20

You're only good.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:21

Like, your crops are dependent on me.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:24

They're not dependent on how many babies you sacrificed to this, your fruit, your security.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:29

And let's not be so trivial and say that security is limited to the food I put on the table and the roof over my head.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:39

Men committing suicide in this world, we have veterans, veteran suicide, and men committing suicide in this world is not a trivial concept.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:47

But are they not bodies sacrificed on the altar of safety or the.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:52

Or the divine feminine?

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:55

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:55

And that gets pretty.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:58

I mean, that's.

Forrest Cooper: 03:45:59

I'll be willing to say that that can come across as a bit of a stretch or a bit of a reach in that sense of like, hey, I'm kind of.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:07

I'm exploring on the periphery of the argument here, but the men, when I.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:13

When I experience that conversation, it's because they are trapped in a prison of meaninglessness and si.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:23

And safety.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:24

And safety.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:25

Uber all this, like, safety for what, you know, for to what end?

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:28

To be safe.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:29

Like, this isn't meaningful, right?

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:32

And then.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:33

And they feel that they're a failure and that there is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:35

They're alone and they're.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:36

And they're.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:37

And they're saying, you know, it isn't right that I should be living this way or I have not lived up to whatever invisible standard that's been placed over me, that I should be more nice or I was nice and I didn't get my reward or I didn't get whatever.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:50

And it's like, yeah, that is a rough place to be.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:53

The solution is not self deletion.

Forrest Cooper: 03:46:58

The solution is to.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:00

The solution is not heretical zealotry towards the destruction of all.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:06

It is, it is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:08

It is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:09

It is turning away from.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:11

Even in the land of your enemies, turning away from the cult of safety to your security and identity as in Christ.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:22

It's.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:23

I am again trying to preach the gospel here, but it's.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:26

It is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:27

It is turning away from the comfort and ease of just being nice.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:33

Like, we all know it, though.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:35

The nice guy is anything but nice.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:37

It's a fake.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:38

Like, I grew up in a world where I was the nice guy for a while, and I'll tell you, heart of malice, and I'm not alone in this.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:45

And.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:46

And so, like.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:48

And so that that turn starts internal and moves outward.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:54

And for.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:55

Even for men, like, we're not alone in this.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:57

I guarantee you, you're not alone in this.

Forrest Cooper: 03:47:59

And it may feel that way, but if I can say one thing as one man, you're not alone in this.

Will Spencer: 03:48:05

So I agree.

Will Spencer: 03:48:07

I just.

Will Spencer: 03:48:08

A podcast about that just came out today about isolation and men's loneliness.

Will Spencer: 03:48:13

And I know that it especially shows up in the veterans community in so many other ways where it's like, I think I could probably tie safety culture to the epidemic of veteran suicides, because our culture is not good with death, because death makes us feel bad.

Will Spencer: 03:48:31

And so one of the things we do is we take old people, we tuck them away in homes, because we don't want to look at the reality of death because it gives me the feel bads and the feel sads.

Will Spencer: 03:48:40

And then, so in the same way, we have these warriors who go overseas and serve admirably, maybe not always, but certainly in the main, they serve admirably, and then they come home, and our culture is not, for all of its celebration of violence and movies and video games, is not actually good with dealing with the real world.

Will Spencer: 03:48:59

Men, three dimensional men who do it.

Will Spencer: 03:49:02

And so we tuck them away and we tell them, nope, you're not nice.

Will Spencer: 03:49:05

You're too safe.

Will Spencer: 03:49:06

And we take these dangerous men.

Will Spencer: 03:49:08

I really liked the movie american sniper for this reason.

Will Spencer: 03:49:11

I know that there's all kinds of things with Chris Kyle and that whole thing, but one thing that it surfaced for me as a man who doesn't have military experience was just how difficult the transition was for him when he came back from the front lines, back to, like, there's a scene where he's in, like, a body shop or something like that, and he's just so.

Will Spencer: 03:49:30

He's so alienated from his environment specifically, because it's so safe and comfortable, and I felt that.

Will Spencer: 03:49:38

And so I think that's the manifestation is we don't actually know how to integrate dangerous warrior men with dangerous warrior experience back into our safety culture world.

Will Spencer: 03:49:47

And so we throw them away.

Will Spencer: 03:49:49

We'll just go over here.

Forrest Cooper: 03:49:50

Yeah, I think this is.

Forrest Cooper: 03:49:52

I want to speak personally on this one, too, please.

Forrest Cooper: 03:49:55

Is that we've seen this happen.

Forrest Cooper: 03:49:59

We've seen that hyper vigilance is something that we see occasionally.

Forrest Cooper: 03:50:03

I don't think we see it as much as we have in the past, but this idea of hyper vigilance, which is like the veteran comes back from overseas.

Forrest Cooper: 03:50:14

He spent years perfecting his ability to wage war in an effective manner, or at least trying to become good at it, and struggling with the ethical structure, the battles that he has to face inside himself and then outside.

Forrest Cooper: 03:50:26

And then he comes back to America, and every time he goes to a restaurant, he has to know where all the exits are, and he has to sit with his back to the wall, and he has to.

Forrest Cooper: 03:50:35

This hyper vigilance of hearing a car backfire and then immediately going into panic, this goes back to even what we were talking about earlier, is that there's a distinction that needs to be made between the individual, or distinction, not a distinction.

Forrest Cooper: 03:50:53

It's something that no man knows another man's heart.

Forrest Cooper: 03:50:56

But for the hyper vigilance, specifically addressing the issue of hyper vigilance, some of it can be the response from traumatic experiences, yes, but another part of it is placing your identity in those experiences.

Forrest Cooper: 03:51:16

So the hyper vigilance, and I think it's the like, I think veterans have to walk through this sometimes not alone, but internally, and we are willing to speak about it to one another.

Forrest Cooper: 03:51:28

Is, is your hyper vigilance an extension of an identity that you no longer have, that you're trying to hold on to?

Forrest Cooper: 03:51:34

Mmmdh or, you know, or sometimes it's one and sometimes the other, and sometimes it's both.

Forrest Cooper: 03:51:40

But the hyper vigilance aspect of this.

Forrest Cooper: 03:51:42

Right, so that the veteran comes home, and this is kind of might speak a little bit to the Chris Kyle thing.

Forrest Cooper: 03:51:47

I haven't seen the movie for a long time, but one part of it is when you're overseas and you're going to war, there's a very sense of order.

Forrest Cooper: 03:51:58

Not order, that's dictated by purely structural means of a government or, sorry, military organization, like chain of command and so on and so forth.

Forrest Cooper: 03:52:09

But there's also a sense of order where, like, if I don't load my rifle, if I don't shoot my gun, if I don't participate, if I don't do the like, things have cause and effect.

Forrest Cooper: 03:52:18

Cause and effect, cause and effect.

Forrest Cooper: 03:52:19

And then you come back to the United States, and there doesn't seem to be that anymore.

Forrest Cooper: 03:52:25

The line between, or the straight line between cause and effect seems to be muddied in many situations.

Forrest Cooper: 03:52:33

So a person is acting in an aggressive behavior.

Forrest Cooper: 03:52:38

Well, it doesn't mean that they're going to get into a bar fight.

Forrest Cooper: 03:52:40

They just might be angry about something.

Forrest Cooper: 03:52:42

But from what you're used to is a person who's acting like this is getting ready to do something bad because you can tell when a person is about to go do something bad because of the way they walk, the way they talk, the way they stand, the way they move, the way they look at you.

Forrest Cooper: 03:52:56

And some of that is intuitive, and some of it is less intuitive.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:01

Some of it is intuitive, and some of it is intellectual and articulate.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:04

And so when it comes to the experience that veterans get when they.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:10

Some.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:11

Some veterans go through, some veterans go through when they come back to the United States, is moving from a world where they understood the mechanism of being into a world where they no longer understand the mechanism of being.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:23

And part of that transition is to figure out the rules of the new game, because they're not the same as the old game.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:30

Your identity, your environment has changed, and not all of it is going to be easy, and not all of it is right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:38

Let me be clear on that one.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:39

Not everything about how the american system functions is right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:44

Yes, good people get away with, or evil people get away with evil.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:48

Good people get punished for their good.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:50

And if you.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:52

There's a certain compulsion for people to join the military that has to do with a sense of justice.

Forrest Cooper: 03:53:56

And when you see that eroded or contradicted in the United States, there is reason to be angered and frustrated by it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:54:05

But now we're again stuck at the battle of apathy and crusader, you know, and we're.

Forrest Cooper: 03:54:11

And we're one.

Forrest Cooper: 03:54:12

We're once again stuck between those, those two lines.

Forrest Cooper: 03:54:15

So for the person struggling with hyper vigilance, on the one hand, some of it is experiential, but make sure that you do the due diligence to not be making that your identity, that hyper vigilance is a form of identity, because certainly, don't get me wrong, if you've gone off and experienced war and you've seen violence and you see things which are real, some of them might, you know, might be exaggerations.

Forrest Cooper: 03:54:47

Like the fireworks is incoming fire.

Forrest Cooper: 03:54:49

Like veterans can distinguish between a dude, it's the 4 July, you're not getting mortared, but you wake up in the middle of the night because you hear a noise and you're scared like you're supposed to be, you know, as you cool off, you realize, I need to be able to solve this.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:05

I need to be able to solve this, or am I going to make it my identity?

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:08

And we don't want to make it our identity because, well, that's not an end.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:12

Well.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:13

And so you can.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:14

You can observe the injustice in.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:17

That's done through the VA.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:18

I am.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:19

I am right there with you, brother.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:22

I have seen it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:24

The VA is a bureaucracy, and it's a bureaucracy staffed by a lot of wicked people.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:33

And it doesn't.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:36

Not only does it not care about you, but it might not even have the ability to do so.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:40

It's trying to.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:41

And so some grace they can't solve a problem that they can't solve.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:45

But the other side is, you know, when you make an appointment with somebody at the VA and they don't even choose to show up, and that causes your paperwork to lapse, and then you have to deal with all the stuff, and then it's on your responsibility.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:56

Yeah, that's wrong.

Will Spencer: 03:55:57

Yeah.

Forrest Cooper: 03:55:58

You know, and I don't need to be.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:00

I don't need to be a judge of a.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:02

I don't need to go to law school to recognize that there's something wrong going on there.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:06

I don't need to be a doctor to recognize that, hey, after this event, I had this problem, and the VA wrote it off as an allergy.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:15

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:15

I don't need to be.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:16

I don't need to be a doctor.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:18

And that does happen.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:21

And so what.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:24

What our.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:24

But what our culture certainly doesn't know how to deal with, and I think where a lot of that hurt comes from, is that you answered a call to go do something.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:33

Not, maybe with some naivety, you answered a call to defend your country.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:37

Maybe with some naivety, you went into the war or you went into the military, you experienced some of the issues that were challenged, that challenged your naivety, and then you became cynical.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:48

But then you started to try to walk out of that cynicism into wisdom.

Forrest Cooper: 03:56:52

And part of that challenge is that you may have gone to war and learned something, and then you came back to the United States saying, look, I answered the call during a time when it was the heroes, like the men who went in the military were the heroes.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:10

And by the time I came out and got back, none of that mattered anymore.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:14

Where's my damn reward?

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:16

And that is a very bitter pill to taste.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:20

And so I commiserate with my fellow veterans in that sense of, I joined the army in a time of conflict to go in defense of my country, maybe realize that it wasn't exactly a defense thing.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:36

Maybe I did.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:37

Maybe I didn't.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:37

Maybe I did good things.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:38

Maybe I saw only corruption.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:40

But then I came back to the United States, and I didn't even get a genuine thank you.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:45

I got a free meal once a year, and I got, you know, and I got a hard time getting a job because now I'm.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:51

I've got to go to school and I've got.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:53

And my college doesn't.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:55

And my college doesn't know how to handle it.

Forrest Cooper: 03:57:58

And, you know, I have this sense of justice which is now no longer wanted.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:02

It's actually discarded, if not even hated.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:05

Go learn how to do something.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:06

You know, I went and did the thing.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:08

I became an army ranger.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:09

And then I came home and they condemned me as being irrational and insane for learning how to do the thing that they.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:15

That I was encouraged to do as a young person.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:18

And I can understand that bitterness.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:21

I can understand that bitterness because it is personal.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:24

So the.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:25

The solution part of.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:27

The.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:27

Part of that issue is, you know, we do.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:28

We do have to walk through it, and we do have to, like, part of the solution is there is no final solution.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:35

And part of it is like, we're going to be in this together.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:38

Uh, but the other part of it is, unfortunately, it's not unique to veterans.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:43

Well, it's not.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:44

Unfortunately, it's not unique to veterans.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:46

Men are dealing with the same thing.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:47

We want you to be providers.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:49

We want you to be protectors.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:50

We want you to look after yourself.

Forrest Cooper: 03:58:51

But if you do any of those things, you will be hailed as a bigot or a disruptor or just a rebel without a cause, or you'll be condemned for being dangerous.

Forrest Cooper: 03:59:06

It's like, okay, the christians will say, they'll wax poetic about David's bravery against Goliath.

Forrest Cooper: 03:59:16

And so when you say, here I am, send me, they're like, yeah, but, no, we don't want it that way.

Forrest Cooper: 03:59:19

We want it in a kinder, nicer way.

Forrest Cooper: 03:59:20

And you're like, well, then why.

Forrest Cooper: 03:59:21

Why did I even start?

Will Spencer: 03:59:23

That's right.

Forrest Cooper: 03:59:23

And.

Forrest Cooper: 03:59:24

And to let that bitterness control you is to quit halfway through the fight.

Forrest Cooper: 03:59:30

Look at that bright sun.

Will Spencer: 03:59:32

Yeah, it's coming.

Will Spencer: 03:59:33

It's coming in.

Will Spencer: 03:59:34

Yeah, no, I.

Will Spencer: 03:59:35

Go ahead.

Forrest Cooper: 03:59:36

We've just been out here long enough that I've watched the sun move through the sky and the beautiful cloudy afternoon turn into this nice, sunny, late afternoon.

Will Spencer: 03:59:46

Nice.

Will Spencer: 03:59:46

Yes.

Will Spencer: 03:59:46

And yes, I want to be sensitive to your time as well.

Will Spencer: 03:59:50

We've had wonderful, a wonderful conversation, and I hear all of that, and it's hard for me to separate it from the general posture that our culture feels towards men in general.

Forrest Cooper: 04:00:03

I don't think I'm going to encourage you in this sense.

Forrest Cooper: 04:00:06

It doesn't need to be separated because my personal testimony being I got out of the military, I got out of the military.

Forrest Cooper: 04:00:13

And then I worked in another similar field for a while, and then I went to school, and I didn't hit my post military depression until I stopped or until I graduated college.

Forrest Cooper: 04:00:22

And at that same time, I recognized the same feeling of.

Forrest Cooper: 04:00:27

That a veteran feels a similar feeling, not identical, because we all have our own experiences, but a similar feeling just in men for being men.

Forrest Cooper: 04:00:38

And that's kind of.

Forrest Cooper: 04:00:39

And that that's kind of the point, I guess, is I saw, like, I think, well, you know, the overwhelming majority of people in the military are men, at least at this time.

Forrest Cooper: 04:00:51

And so there's one part of the equation that is a veteran specific problem, and there's another part of the equation that has to do with men and how our culture deals with masculinity.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:02

And I can say with conviction that I have friends who have never served in the military who are dealing with some of the similar issues of, similar issues of, like, aimlessness or a lack of direction or a lack of appreciation or I do the work and I don't get.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:23

I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:24

I don't have it.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:25

It doesn't come back to me or the resentment and the anger and the frustration and the sense of injustice and.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:31

And so, like, it's not.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:34

It's not.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:35

Veterans have their own camp, their own part, their own experiences in it, but it's not unique to veterans anymore.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:44

You know, it's not anymore.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:46

It's.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:47

The entirety of the experience is not unique to veterans.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:50

Now, those who are not veterans, who never have to recognize that the veteran section gets their due.

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:58

Right?

Forrest Cooper: 04:01:58

So, like, we can share worldview concerns because we both believe in justice, we both believe in the rights of man.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:04

We both believe that there's a way, the way a man should live.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:09

And my section of experiences that have to do with the veteran side really do contribute, give me a contribution to the veteran conversation.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:21

But I can share those same values across the spectrum, whether it's not even across the aisle, but with the whole overarching question of men and masculinity and integrity and valor and honor.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:34

And these are, these.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:35

These qualities and strength.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:37

Veterans are not the only people who are in desire of strength.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:39

People who have gone to experience war are not the only people who desire to protect their families or to live as honorable men.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:49

And.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:51

And yet that false separation is more like, well, you know, these guys have their own little.

Forrest Cooper: 04:02:57

They have their common language, but we're as men, we are in.

Forrest Cooper: 04:03:02

We are in contest with evil.

Will Spencer: 04:03:05

I mean, I experienced some of this in my own way.

Will Spencer: 04:03:08

You know, coming back.

Will Spencer: 04:03:10

And this is not to liken my experience to warfare or anything like that.

Will Spencer: 04:03:15

However, having lived for four years on the road, and I've got just me and my little backpack and I've got my 50 things, and everything has its place, and if a thing is not in its place, then the thing is probably gone because there's no place else that could be.

Will Spencer: 04:03:29

And it's kind of.

Will Spencer: 04:03:30

I don't want to say it's me against the world, but it's me and the world with no insulation, no barrier, and often not even a door, right.

Will Spencer: 04:03:38

And then coming back into the quote unquote real world and integrating back into, back into an apartment, integrating back into life.

Will Spencer: 04:03:48

And there was a sense of, like, I lived on the edge of immediacy every day for years.

Will Spencer: 04:03:55

Then I come back into this very comfortable, nice world, and I've seen things that people can't understand, and I've been the guy on the edge in my own way.

Will Spencer: 04:04:04

And now here I am coming back into the world and seeing all the lies and seeing all the things that people are living within that I lived very much on the outside of for a long time.

Will Spencer: 04:04:15

And it's like figuring out for me how to integrate back into that and finding that the things that I had gone looking for were not things that were welcome.

Will Spencer: 04:04:25

Right.

Will Spencer: 04:04:25

And I can understand that within secular society.

Will Spencer: 04:04:28

But then to come into the christian church and to have come in through the doorway of masculinity, to have discovered that Christianity is a masculine religion, it's the masculine religion, in fact.

Will Spencer: 04:04:39

And to come in through that door and be like, hey, guys, look, I found all this stuff.

Will Spencer: 04:04:43

And to have, like, it feels like an entire church in a metaphorical sense, turn and look at me and like, what's that?

Will Spencer: 04:04:49

Right?

Will Spencer: 04:04:50

And these things are related.

Will Spencer: 04:04:52

Again, I dont want to liken myself to veterans because its something very different, but I think were looking at two ends of the same kind of problem.

Will Spencer: 04:05:00

What do men similar to us do?

Will Spencer: 04:05:04

Carrying all this knowledge in a world that rejects it, throws it away, discards it, doesnt want to deal with it, isnt ready to deal with it, and to come all the way back around to the question of, can a weak man be good?

Will Spencer: 04:05:17

It's like I would actually ask, will weak men allow good, allow strong men to be good?

Will Spencer: 04:05:25

That's really the question, because I think a strong man isn't necessarily going to be good, but a strong man can be good.

Will Spencer: 04:05:34

A weak man cannot be good.

Will Spencer: 04:05:36

A strong man can be good.

Will Spencer: 04:05:39

But given that we live in a world that's been captured by weak Mendez.

Will Spencer: 04:05:43

When the strong, good men show up, will they allow or will there be a fight?

Will Spencer: 04:05:50

Which I think is what's going to happen to allow those strong, good men to rule?

Will Spencer: 04:05:55

And that's really the question.

Forrest Cooper: 04:05:57

Yeah, well, you've already set the stage with that argument.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:01

Is that, by the way, that we presented it as weak men being those who are unwilling to participate in goodness.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:08

No, it's going to get noisy in a second.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:10

Oh, well, the wind chimes are about to start up.

Will Spencer: 04:06:12

That's fine.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:16

Or maybe not.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:17

But I think you've already set the stage for the argument with as the way that we've defined it, the weak men are those who are in rejection of the good.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:26

And when they see strong men who are pursuing good, pursue good, they are naturally going to get in the way of it, because that conviction of goodness is a reflection of that.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:36

Another man acting in good is only conviction of the person refusing to do good.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:41

And because it's convicting, they must destroy it.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:46

The envious, resentful man cannot abide a good man existing, because that goodness is a conviction of their refusal to participate in the scenario.

Forrest Cooper: 04:06:58

And by nature, we should be ready for, as christians, to have a right response to that.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:06

And a right response is not simply get out of the way, you're just getting in the problem.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:13

It's that we are convicted to do what is right and true and good.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:16

And if you're going to stand in the way of that, by nature of praising weakness, then we're not going to consider your counsel worthy of our time.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:29

And that very quickly turns, can turn into a dark, tribalistic, inside group mentality.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:36

But we also have defenses against that.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:40

We also have.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:41

We can recognize it and say, no, we're not going to create a cabal.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:47

But all accusations of the cabal are not.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:51

Are not equally valid.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:53

And so the.

Forrest Cooper: 04:07:56

Yeah, I think by setting the stage that way, absolutely weak men.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:00

But that is.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:01

That is.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:01

That is a part of what weak men do, is they must get in the way of strength moving.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:06

Because if the.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:07

If strength exists and strong men exist, they exist as a almost existential threat to the masturbatory self weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:19

Or not self weakness, but the masturbatory worship of weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:23

And.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:24

And it's.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:24

And it's no surprise that when people who have made that wickedness their God are that weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 04:08:32

When people have made that weakness their God are faced with strong men, the only solution they can do is to get onto twitter and call for their death.

Will Spencer: 04:08:41

Yes.

Will Spencer: 04:08:41

And the response of those strong men, as we talked about earlier, is not to suffer the horns of either side of either apathy or crusaderism.

Will Spencer: 04:08:52

Right.

Will Spencer: 04:08:53

Or martyrdom versus, I don't know, unjust aggression, like how we prosecute our particular war, is as important as the war that we prosecute.

Forrest Cooper: 04:09:04

Yeah, martyrdom or tyranny.

Forrest Cooper: 04:09:05

We'll use those.

Forrest Cooper: 04:09:06

You know, that's a good way to conclude.

Forrest Cooper: 04:09:07

Concluded is that, you know, we, we are compelled by we, if you even go back to Genesis, you know, go forth and spread across the earth in dominion.

Forrest Cooper: 04:09:18

Dominion is not tyranny.

Forrest Cooper: 04:09:21

And we are warned against tyranny, and we are warned against apathy.

Forrest Cooper: 04:09:25

And so if you feign, if you mistake, or if you create a false doctrine that masquerades cynicism, an old friend of mine once said, cynicism is cowardice masquerading as bravery.

Forrest Cooper: 04:09:43

And, and he, I haven't talked to him in a long time, so if he ever, he happens to hear this, I hope that you reach out, but there is, because I've lost, I've lost contact with him.

Forrest Cooper: 04:09:55

But the point being said is what we're, I think what we're addressing specifically in this conversation is that sort of divine feminine cult of weakness that specifically tries to repaint the world in a way antithetical to the gospel, which, out of accusations of tyranny, produces the divine feminine and says, you cannot, you have no strength, no courage.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:26

All that is dangerous.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:27

So we must produce safety.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:29

We must produce weakness, because weakness is harmless.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:31

Wrong.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:32

Weakness.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:35

Final summary.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:36

Conjunction.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:37

The masturbation of one sense of morality by believing that weakness is equivalent to humility, is the same spirit that produced is the genocidal maniac.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:45

The idea, the idea that you could, because what it produces is a sense of victimhood.

Forrest Cooper: 04:10:50

And victimhood is at the core of every belief system that we've seen, where your core identity is victimhood, that, not victimhood because of the sin nature, but victimhood against other men is mao, Stalin, Lenin, and all these other examples that.

Forrest Cooper: 04:11:08

I mean, the fact that you have to, like, continuously explain them.

Forrest Cooper: 04:11:12

It's like, well, you know, the, the Nazis accused themselves of being victims of this way.

Forrest Cooper: 04:11:17

It's like if your core identity is victimhood, watch out.

Forrest Cooper: 04:11:20

You are sowing the seeds of genocide, and you'll find yourself not on the wrong side of history, but going down in going down before your God as, oh, well, I kind of killed a million people because they offended me.

Forrest Cooper: 04:11:36

And it's not really a good look.

Will Spencer: 04:11:41

Because victimhood, like, if someone who has an identity as a victim earns, or so they believe, carte blanche from their own conscience to do whatever they need to do versus God doesn't care if you're a victim or not.

Will Spencer: 04:11:54

The law is the law.

Forrest Cooper: 04:11:56

Yes, we are called to a higher purpose that recognizes that the source and locus of justice and injustice is not in yourself, but in something greater, whether it is the concept of justice.

Forrest Cooper: 04:12:09

And then where do you ground that happens to be God?

Forrest Cooper: 04:12:12

And that is what the conviction is.

Forrest Cooper: 04:12:14

And so whether you do the tyrant or you do the martyr, the self sanctimonious martyr, both of those locate the concept of justice in the divine self or the divine feminine.

Forrest Cooper: 04:12:27

Whereas if you're going to be masculine, masculine servanthood, your servanthood has to be to justice and in your own heart, if you are going to sacrifice true justice for the sake of tyranny or vengeance, then you are committing the sin.

Forrest Cooper: 04:12:43

But that doesn't mean that you have.

Forrest Cooper: 04:12:45

But that is also measured and contrasted by the sin of the martyr of, well, all justice is in the injustice done to me.

Will Spencer: 04:12:55

So the weak man who will not go beyond himself, the reason why he won't go beyond himself is because he believes he's a victim.

Will Spencer: 04:13:05

How dare I be subjected to this?

Will Spencer: 04:13:08

Versus the man who willingly submits to the circumstances that God has presented to him goes beyond them in a spirit of service and a spirit of submission, in a spirit of obedience and humility, and in doing that, finds his strength.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:24

Yes, I think that's a.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:25

I think that's a good way to put it.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:28

I will listen to it again, but from where we're at right now.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:32

Yeah, I will stand behind that, is that you have to give up.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:37

The identity of the self sanctimonious martyr and the tyrant are both rooted in the self being God.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:46

And that self has to be sacrificed on the altar to the one true God so that you can be in service to either.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:52

We are either in service to righteousness or in service to sin.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:56

We are.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:56

We are.

Forrest Cooper: 04:13:57

We are slaves to righteousness or we are slaves to sin.

Will Spencer: 04:14:00

Amen.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:01

Yeah, we got there.

Will Spencer: 04:14:02

We got there.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:03

We got there.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:04

Yes.

Will Spencer: 04:14:04

Yes.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:05

Yes, we did.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:08

It can be done.

Will Spencer: 04:14:09

It can be done.

Will Spencer: 04:14:10

We did it.

Will Spencer: 04:14:11

Praise God.

Will Spencer: 04:14:12

Hallelujah.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:13

Amen.

Will Spencer: 04:14:14

So as we wrap this up, like, you know, where do you want to send people to find out more about you and what you do?

Will Spencer: 04:14:19

You got a podcast.

Will Spencer: 04:14:20

You got all these other things you do which we haven't really even talked about at all.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:24

Oh, will, I thought you'd never ask.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:28

So I almost didn't.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:30

It's all right.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:31

So where I'm at right now.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:34

So the podcast that I run is we do a lot of.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:36

I do a little bit of shorter segments because I do shorter segments and then longer interviews.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:41

And that is the redacted culture cast.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:44

It's on YouTube, Spotify, Rumble, Apple, Google, maybe I heart, I don't know.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:51

But we're on.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:51

We're on, you know, your Apple, Spotify, and Google podcasts for sure.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:57

And then we're also on.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:59

I'm also on YouTube.

Forrest Cooper: 04:14:59

And that you can search the redacted culture cast and find us there.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:04

The website is redacted, llc.com.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:07

and then the, and then our Instagram is redacted, LLC.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:14

So the easiest thing is, if you go to Instagram, redacted, LLC, that's, that's Instagram.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:21

Or the website is redacted, llc.com.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:24

dot.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:25

The core idea of why we chose I chose or we chose the word redacted.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:29

And the idea that came from that is we believe in this idea of private property, you know, gun control or gun gun, you know, the rights of the man.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:39

And this idea of private property is one of those specific things in our world where the physical meets the abstract.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:49

I have spent years in, I have done the violence side.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:54

I've been in the military, I've been a part of gun culture.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:57

I went to school for philosophy.

Forrest Cooper: 04:15:58

And so the core idea and the core thing that is at the center of the podcast and what we do is the fusion of rigorous, classic philosophy and gun culture, or another way is the philosophy of violence.

Forrest Cooper: 04:16:14

How do we understand and what do we believe to be right and true and good about the application of force and whether that is scale that scales as high as warfare or as close to the human soul as how vengeance corrupts.

Forrest Cooper: 04:16:29

And so if you want to, if you were to follow us, I'd be super thankful.

Forrest Cooper: 04:16:34

But that's how.

Forrest Cooper: 04:16:35

That's how we are.

Will Spencer: 04:16:36

Yes.

Will Spencer: 04:16:36

You and I had a wonderful, wonderful conversation when I came on your show.

Will Spencer: 04:16:39

And I very much enjoy your Instagram account as well.

Will Spencer: 04:16:43

Like, I love the way that you present these issues.

Will Spencer: 04:16:45

Visually, the aesthetic is second to none.

Forrest Cooper: 04:16:49

Yep.

Forrest Cooper: 04:16:49

So I get to the artistic side, goes out through Instagram, and then for the core argumentation and philosophy, it's through the podcast.

Will Spencer: 04:17:01

Excellent.

Will Spencer: 04:17:02

Well be sure to send men your way for, for more of this.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:05

Thank you.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:06

Yep.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:06

Community building is where gun culture is out right now.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:09

I know its a buzzword, its what people want to talk about, but its really what were trying to do.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:13

And the best way we can do it, you know, like Weve talked about in the past with isolation, is that part of where were at veterans feel isolated, go and seek out other people.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:22

And for young men, you know, its build community, it takes work.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:26

Youre going to fail at it.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:28

But we're here together.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:29

And so our core contribution, my core contribution to gun culture is more of the philosopher's side and how do we think about these things and how do we think about violence and use of force, whether it's something as technical as CQB, as abstract as well, CQB versus recce versus this.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:48

But I tend to not really talk about, like, barrel length and kit loadouts.

Forrest Cooper: 04:17:51

I tend to more talk about some of the morality, like morality and philosophy and how we look at the history of warfare and the history of violent conflicts and its application to ethics and identity and maybe even a simplest thing of how having a firm, having a solid worldview and understanding of at least a desire to understand ethics is part of a.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:19

A healthy immune system and preventative measure against PTSD.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:23

Because what I don't want to see in the world is what I don't.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:25

What one of the things that I've seen is that gun culture has progressed.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:30

What we refer to as gun culture is this big, amalgamous watercolor painting where the boundary lines are not very clear.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:39

It's not a line, it's not an excellent line drawing.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:42

It's a little bit more broad.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:44

Uh, it's the.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:45

The difference between one camp and another is a little bit murky.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:49

But, and so are the edges.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:50

Like, we're not.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:51

It's not.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:51

There is no real hierarchy if there's no pure leader of gun culture.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:56

But.

Forrest Cooper: 04:18:57

And so, uh, but what we've seen in the shift in gun culture in America specifically is the older kind of, what is tacitly referred to as the fud era has kind of gone, is it has aged out of.

Forrest Cooper: 04:19:10

And so the new version of what we see now in gun cultures, people are buying night vision and kit and plate carriers and suppressors and learning how to do things.

Forrest Cooper: 04:19:18

And they're, instead of just taking a how to shoot a gun 101, they're taking a CQB course with Orion training group, or they're taking a more advanced course with cogworks, or they're following Garand Thumb, or there's a little bit broader of a spectrum, but it's kind of moved away from, like, hunting and ye olde sports to something even deeper than I need to have a handgun to defend myself in case there's a bump in the night.

Forrest Cooper: 04:19:46

It's more like, no, I have civic responsibilities to my community, and so then they're looking for that community to participate in.

Forrest Cooper: 04:19:52

But the other side of it is one of the older sort of vestiges of the past was an anti intellectual approach.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:00

It sounds too smart.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:01

So it's got to be.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:02

It sounds too smart.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:03

It's too academic.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:04

It's got to be.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:04

There's got to be a trap in it.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:05

And we're like, no, I'm not particularly interested in the fact that the second amendment enshrines my right to bear arms in our constitution.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:14

What I am really concerned about are, what are the ideas behind that?

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:18

How did somebody get to the idea that they should enshrine in the law that a citizen of the United States has a right to bear arms?

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:28

If you were to go in a weird hierarchy, you buy a rifle, you learn how to use it.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:34

You buy a handgun, you learn how to use it.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:35

You buy.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:36

You have a rifle and a handgun, you learn how to use them together.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:38

Then you buy kit, and then you buy night vision, and then.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:41

And then you got it.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:42

But you got all this kit.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:44

Are you in shape?

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:45

Sure.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:45

I've started.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:46

I've started dealing with some of my fitness, but I've gotten all these things together.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:50

Then what.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:50

What do I believe in?

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:51

What are my values?

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:52

What are my.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:53

What are my end goals?

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:54

And that's where we start to play.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:56

That's where I start to play in that field is like.

Forrest Cooper: 04:20:57

I'm not saying that all of this is a given, but it's a fusion of the why and the how.

Forrest Cooper: 04:21:03

In redacted private property, privacy is a purely abstract object.

Forrest Cooper: 04:21:09

Property, physical object.

Forrest Cooper: 04:21:11

But the combination of that idea and the thing is what has combined into gun culture, and that's where you find us.

Will Spencer: 04:21:19

My listeners can probably understand why I would find that so appealing, because I deal with more of the philosophy and theology of masculinity versus, like, here's how to get six pack abs, and here's how you make six figures.

Will Spencer: 04:21:30

Like, I don't deal with those issues.

Will Spencer: 04:21:32

There are plenty of capable men who do.

Will Spencer: 04:21:33

I tend to think bigger picture about things in the way that you do.

Will Spencer: 04:21:37

And so, I don't know, maybe I'm a little bored with the masculinity dialogue.

Will Spencer: 04:21:41

Maybe you can help usher me into the gun culture dialogue, because that sounds kind of interesting.

Will Spencer: 04:21:44

What's going on over there?

Forrest Cooper: 04:21:46

Yeah, well, any day.

Forrest Cooper: 04:21:47

Jump on.

Forrest Cooper: 04:21:48

Let's do this.

Will Spencer: 04:21:49

Let's go.

Will Spencer: 04:21:50

All right, man.

Will Spencer: 04:21:51

Well, thank you so much for us.

Will Spencer: 04:21:52

This has been amazing.

Forrest Cooper: 04:21:54

Thank you for having me on.

Forrest Cooper: 04:21:55

And thank you for enduring the, the fall weather in the midwest and the cat that interrupts my lap.

Forrest Cooper: 04:22:01

And, and thank you for going through a long tail conversation, because these are what I enjoy.

Forrest Cooper: 04:22:07

I think this is where a lot of good is being done.

Forrest Cooper: 04:22:10

Even if it's not happening in Congress, it's still happening between men.

Will Spencer: 04:22:13

So amen.

Will Spencer: 04:22:14

This is what it's all about.

Will Spencer: 04:22:15

Thank you, man.

Forrest Cooper: 04:22:16

All right.

Forrest Cooper: 04:22:17

God blessed.

Will Spencer: 04:22:21

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Renaissance of Men Podcast.

Will Spencer: 04:22:27

Visit us on the web@wrenofmen.com or on your favorite social media platform at Ren of Men.

Will Spencer: 04:22:35

This is the renaissance of men.

Will Spencer: 04:22:39

You are the Renaissance.