Episode 254
MELISSA DOUGHERTY - Exposing Happy Lies: The Hidden Movement Infiltrating Every Church in America
Melissa Dougherty is a Christian apologist with nearly 400,000 YouTube subscribers and over 18 million video views. In this conversation, she unpacks her groundbreaking book "Happy Lies" which exposes the New Thought movement—a spiritual philosophy most Christians have never heard of yet encounter constantly.
Melissa reveals how this century-old movement has infiltrated American evangelicalism, progressive Christianity, and secular self-help culture while masquerading as biblical truth. Her personal journey from New Thought deception to authentic Christianity provides urgent warnings for believers navigating today's spiritually confused landscape.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
- New Thought disguises itself as Christianity while promoting self-deification and manifestation theology
- Most Christians unknowingly encounter New Thought beliefs in churches, self-help books, and worship music
- Unity churches exist in most cities yet few believers recognize them as New Thought centers
- The "living your truth" movement has direct roots in transcendental and New Thought philosophy
- Progressive Christianity shares significant theological overlap with New Thought's rejection of biblical authority
- True wholeness comes only through Christ's blood, not recognizing supposed divinity within yourself
CONNECT WITH MELISSA
https://www.melissadougherty.co/
https://www.instagram.com/melissaldougherty/
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Hello and welcome to the Will Spencer Podcast.
Speaker B:This is a weekly interview show where I sit down and talk with authors, thought leaders and influencers who help us understand our changing world.
Speaker B:New episodes drop every Friday.
Speaker B:My guest.
Speaker B:Our guest this week is Melissa Dougherty.
Speaker B:Melissa is a Christian apologist best known for her YouTube channel with almost 400,000 subscribers.
Speaker B:Her videos, which primarily cover New Age and new thought, have been viewed over 18 million times.
Speaker B:Melissa is highly regarded and connected in the apologetics community.
Speaker B:She has had numerous influential guests on her YouTube channel and is a frequent guest on YouTube videos and podcasts of popular thinkers as well.
Speaker B:Melissa has a bachelor's degree in Religious Studies from Southern Evangelical Seminary, where she's also pursuing her master's degree in Religious studies.
Speaker B:Melissa is married with two daughters and lives in New Mexico.
Speaker B:Melissa Dougherty, welcome to the Will Spencer Podcast.
Speaker A:Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker B:I have your book here, Happy Lies How a movement you've probably never heard of shaped our self obsessed world.
Speaker B:I really enjoyed reading this book and I've been looking forward to talking with you about it because as my listeners know, I spent 20 years in the New Age, which of course New age and New thought are parallel worlds to each other with some overlap.
Speaker B:So of course I've encountered a lot of these ideas, but in a different context.
Speaker B:So getting to dive into them was very educational, edifying.
Speaker B:Especially now coming from a Christian perspective.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I think that was.
Speaker A:One of the things that confused me for a while is, you know, if you read the book, I thought I was in the New Age and I kind of was.
Speaker A:I always say I'm an ex new thoughter with a little bit of ex New Age sprinkled in.
Speaker A:But I've never met an ex New Ager or a New Ager who was not also a new thoughter.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, the two, the two go hand in hand.
Speaker B:I was aware of a lot of those things like manifesting and, you know, that your thoughts create your reality kind of those ideas.
Speaker B:I never, I was never really sure how seriously I took them.
Speaker B:I had experienced this experiences that seemed to confirm them, but I was always of the perspective.
Speaker B:Like I don't know myself well enough to really visualize what I want.
Speaker A:Yeah, the trust issues.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Universe.
Speaker A:Tell me what to do.
Speaker A:I. Yeah, I kind of think that even some of that can seep over into the Christian world where we were afraid.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or God, what should I do?
Speaker A:What should I wear?
Speaker A:What about this?
Speaker A:What about that?
Speaker A:And it's like a fear.
Speaker A:We're so afraid to Make a mistake.
Speaker A:So that's interesting that there's a parallel there, but, yeah, for me, no, I knew what I wanted.
Speaker A:You would have been a terrible new thoughter.
Speaker B:Oh, I would have been awful.
Speaker B:Are you kidding me?
Speaker B:But it's hard to escape.
Speaker B:Like Napoleon.
Speaker B:I almost said Napoleon Dynamite, Napoleon Hill.
Speaker B:You know, it's hard to escape the secret.
Speaker B:It's hard to escape all of those ideas anytime.
Speaker B:And even inside Christianity as well.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's the same thing.
Speaker A:It's a weird.
Speaker A:It's an interesting dance because, you know, I think that what puts new thought in a different bracket, because I know that there's other spiritualities out there that have, you know, this idea that your thoughts have power, maybe.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, they don't call it Christ consciousness.
Speaker A:They might call it God consciousness or whatever it is.
Speaker A:And some of it's more New Agey.
Speaker A:But what.
Speaker A:What really sets new thought apart is that it has the tone of Christianity.
Speaker A:Like, it brings Jesus into it.
Speaker A:It claims to be Christian.
Speaker A:That's really where it gets really messy, and that's where we have a dog in the fight.
Speaker A:Because you have this other counterfeit version of Christianity that most Christians have never even heard of, yet a lot are falling for it because it's in the name of Jesus and nobody's been able to actually pin it down.
Speaker A:Some people might think, oh, it looks kind of progressive.
Speaker A:It looks kind of.
Speaker A:Is that New Age or.
Speaker A:Actually, that looks pretty biblical.
Speaker A:And so it just kind of becomes this ball of mess, this twine, really, that people are trying to unravel.
Speaker B:That is so interesting, because from my experiences with new thought, it was never.
Speaker B:I never interpreted it as a Christian thing.
Speaker B:It was always just kind of encapsulated within this new age.
Speaker B:Your mind creates reality kind of idea.
Speaker B:We are all one, we are God kind of thing.
Speaker B:I never saw it as Christian, but having read your book, and then people telling me about Norman Vincent Peale, who I'd never read, like, oh, I can understand how this has a history in the Christian faith.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And some of it's very secular, too.
Speaker A:So if you go back into the history, like, I. I love talking about the history of it, and there's so much to learn.
Speaker A:Like, I'll read a dry, boring, new thought history book which exists but nobody knows about, and I'll read it.
Speaker A:And it just falls out of your brain.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's like your brain's an SD card, and so you have to kind of go back and reread it.
Speaker A:And I just love learning about the history.
Speaker A:But Religious science.
Speaker A:Religious Science is a denomination of New Thought.
Speaker A:And again, most people have never even heard of that.
Speaker A:The largest one is probably Unity.
Speaker A:Most cities have a Unity center in their area.
Speaker A:You have some crossover with the Transcendental Movement, so you have Unitarian Universalists who kind of cross over into some of the beliefs, even though they're a little separate.
Speaker A:It's kind of messy, but it can get very secular.
Speaker A:In Religious science is probably, I would say, the most secular, where you'll have people who kind of cling more to the beliefs, but they won't necessarily talk a whole lot about Jesus.
Speaker A:They'll talk about the power within you.
Speaker A:They'll talk about, you know, Christ consciousness, maybe they'll.
Speaker A:They'll talk about mind over matter, mind vibrations, frequencies, love.
Speaker A:Love.
Speaker A:It's all about love.
Speaker A:You know, they can become very progressive.
Speaker A:But you're right, like, there can be an element of it that is more secular where you're not dragging Jesus into it.
Speaker A:But the origin of it definitely has Christian undertones.
Speaker A:The New Thought movement, people in New Thought, especially Unity.
Speaker A:Unity probably has the most Christian ease.
Speaker A:The most Christian ease.
Speaker A:And then Christian Science.
Speaker A:Most people have heard of Christian Science.
Speaker A:That's a cult of New Thought.
Speaker A:So working back from there, I actually didn't deal with Christian Science a lot in my book for that reason, because the founder, Mary Baker Eddy, she took a lot of the beliefs of New Thought and just made it cultish.
Speaker A:She had a lot of falling out with the original founders.
Speaker A:She was domineering, she was mean, and basically took on that kind of like that narcissistic role where she had a lot of character and people believed her.
Speaker A:And of course, she wrote her.
Speaker A:What was it?
Speaker A:Can't remember the name of it, but her Science of Health, I think it's what it's called.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which is a really new Thought.
Speaker A:But the New Thought movement didn't.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:What they were trying to do was get away from any sort of dogma.
Speaker A:They were trying to get away from the rules, if you will.
Speaker A:And so here comes this Mary Baker Eddie coming in like a wrecking ball, and she's like, making rules and, you know, making it.
Speaker A:Domineering and doing the opposite.
Speaker A:And so they just kind of.
Speaker A:They kind of split.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, so most people would understand Christian Science.
Speaker A:And so when people see strange beliefs like this, they're like, oh, that, that, that.
Speaker A:Historically speaking, oh, it's Christian Science.
Speaker A:But I'm like, it's not just Christian Science.
Speaker A:Like, this is so much more.
Speaker A:This is a movement.
Speaker A:It's It's a philosophy.
Speaker A:It's a, it's interwoven into the very fabric of American thought.
Speaker A:Like, it's, it's something that we don't really have a name for, but everybody has experienced, whether you're Christian or an American or a European, because it is throughout the world.
Speaker A:And you have experienced it whether you have a name for it or not.
Speaker B:And I think you really hit on it right there.
Speaker B:People don't have a name for it.
Speaker B:And I think people have a name for New Age as, as imprecise and perhaps outdated as it is.
Speaker B:It's a bucket that people can kind of throw everything into.
Speaker B:New thought is like, what's, what's that like?
Speaker B:They don't, they don't know how to even apply the label properly to what they're seeing.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, it's been hiding behind the leg of New Age.
Speaker A:That's kind of the way I put it.
Speaker A:It's like, oh, they can't see me and I'm just going to hide behind you.
Speaker A:Okay, New Age, you're going to take the blame.
Speaker A:And I, the reason why this was like, really personal for me is, I mean, here I am, I'm a Christian.
Speaker A:I became a Christian at 16, and I grew up with new thought beliefs, but I didn't know that.
Speaker A:And so I, I'm.
Speaker A:It seemed so mystical and, and esoteric and secret and hidden to me.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, my word, look at this.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The secret hidden gospels, the lost Gospels.
Speaker A:Look at all this missing knowledge.
Speaker A:It was so interesting to me.
Speaker A:And I think that mindset, by the way, is why a lot of people get into, like, conspiracies.
Speaker A:We, it's.
Speaker A:It's not sexy enough, right?
Speaker A:You just read the headline.
Speaker A:You're like, nope, I'm gonna make that hundred times more complicated by, you know, just putting in this narrative that I have really no proof for, but I'm gonna get some pseudo proof for, and all these people are gonna believe it.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Loved that stuff.
Speaker A:Loved that stuff.
Speaker A:It was, it was something about that that just gave me a rush.
Speaker A:It gave me this power dynamic.
Speaker A:It made me feel powerful.
Speaker A:I had this knowledge, I had this knowing.
Speaker A:Forget actually having critical thinking.
Speaker A:I was the most critical thinker in the room.
Speaker A:You don't know any better.
Speaker A:So there was like this pride aspect, you know, And I do think that there's an understanding of, hey, this is factually true, objectively true.
Speaker A:It aligns with reality.
Speaker A:Here's how.
Speaker A:Versus, oh, I have this, this knowledge of this thing that you have to be in the know to know about.
Speaker A:And I know better than you, therefore I can discard what you're saying.
Speaker A:I think those are two different perspectives.
Speaker A:And so that was the allure.
Speaker A:I had like a lust for the supernatural, all the things.
Speaker A:Okay, so that's kind of the background there.
Speaker A:But becoming a Christian, I mean you have this overlap of.
Speaker A:I had this overlap.
Speaker A:I became a Christian and I got very annoyed maybe I still, I'm still like leaky, reaching for a word to describe this in a succinct, simple way without over explaining.
Speaker A:But I didn't like Christians for the most part.
Speaker B:Even when you were a Christian or.
Speaker A:Okay, they were actually part of the problem.
Speaker A:Oh, I made a whole video about this where especially a female part of that.
Speaker A:I mean, not to sound like, oh, poor innocent female, but no, that was part of it.
Speaker A:I was just basically looked at like I, are you serious?
Speaker A:Like you actually want to learn the Bible?
Speaker A:Why are you asking me this question about hell?
Speaker A:You know, just have more faith, you know, and here, there's the kids ministry right over there.
Speaker A:Like where.
Speaker A:Why are you here asking me?
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:It was just like this, this attitude of you don't want to think about your faith, do you?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like there was this anti intellectual vein and it really turned me off.
Speaker A:New thought is the opposite.
Speaker A:Not only is it embracing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Embracing feminism, it's embracing feminism.
Speaker A:It's very progressive.
Speaker A:So I kind of became like this feminist where I. I was not equal to you, Will.
Speaker A:I was not equal to you.
Speaker A:No, no.
Speaker A:I was better than you.
Speaker A:I knew better.
Speaker A:I'm a female.
Speaker A:I have, I have more knowledge than you.
Speaker B:You have the internal heart knowledge that men lack.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so there was just a lot of pride in the language of humility and it's me getting my power or whatever.
Speaker A:So there's that vein and there's a.
Speaker A:Historically speaking, there's a strong feminist vein and early new thought literature, you know, so that's part of it, but the other part of it is, I mean, I guess I was an apologist at the beginning.
Speaker A:I always had questions.
Speaker A:I was always annoying.
Speaker A:I was always wanting to understand and learn more and dig deeper and get into the why of things.
Speaker A:And if I didn't understand it, I mean, I was the slow kid in class.
Speaker A:I was the slow kid in class.
Speaker A:I was in special ed.
Speaker A:I'm like, teacher.
Speaker A:I don't get it.
Speaker A:Can you explain this again?
Speaker A:I'm still that way and I just don't care anymore.
Speaker A:I guess it's Explain it to me again like I'm nine.
Speaker A:Hold on, back up.
Speaker A:What about this?
Speaker A:What about that?
Speaker A:Oh, I get it now.
Speaker A:Okay, okay, okay, okay, now explain this.
Speaker A:That's how I am.
Speaker A:Like, I.
Speaker A:It's just how, it's how I learn.
Speaker A:And I don't think they had the patience for that.
Speaker A:I really don't.
Speaker B:That's not the slow kid.
Speaker B:That's the, I mean, that's the smart kid.
Speaker B:Slow kids don't write books like this.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Sometimes I still didn't get it.
Speaker B:Okay, fair.
Speaker A:I'm still like that though.
Speaker A:Like, I was just talking to my friend Elisa.
Speaker A:We were just talking about her and I was like, I don't get this.
Speaker A:You know, this, you know, there's this nude word that she's saying.
Speaker A:I'm like, what is this?
Speaker A:Can you explain this?
Speaker A:I don't get it.
Speaker A:Where did this come from?
Speaker A:And she's been talking about it for like two years and I still don't get it, right?
Speaker A:And she doesn't care.
Speaker A:Like, she's like, here.
Speaker A:Yeah, this is great.
Speaker A:Like, give me more.
Speaker A:So the fact that there was this, this aspect of Christianity that I could find on the shelves at Barnes and Noble, even some churches, even some other Christians that seemed to embrace that, right?
Speaker A:They dared to think, in fact, they told you that your mind was powerful and that your words were powerful.
Speaker A:You could create with your mind.
Speaker A:You could create with your words.
Speaker A:Oh, and Jesus really taught this.
Speaker A:Look, Jesus was like pro power.
Speaker A:He was trying to teach you about the Christ within and that, you know, the law of attraction is real.
Speaker A:You know, he's trying to teach you the secrets of the universe.
Speaker A:You know, these other Christians over here, they don't get it.
Speaker A:They're just closed minded bigots.
Speaker A:You know, they're probably racist.
Speaker A:You know, like all these things, they were just, they were, they were the, the peasant Christians that didn't quite get it.
Speaker A:And I'll not me, I was the smart one, I was the intelligent one.
Speaker A:I was the more spiritually attuned Christian.
Speaker A:Um, and so that was kind of the way, the flavor of new thought, that was the flavor.
Speaker A:I'm smarter, I'm wiser, I have more knowledge than you.
Speaker A:I have more spiritual wisdom because look, look at all this that I have access to, that I've read.
Speaker A:And you're just sticking with the book Bible.
Speaker A:That's boring.
Speaker A:You know, and so all these teachings, I fell it, I fell for it hook, line and sinker.
Speaker A:And the leaders that I follow, there were so many, a lot of them are prosperity preachers.
Speaker A:Joel is one of them.
Speaker A:Joel Osteen has links to new thought, the new thought movement, the beliefs, and so the things that he would say.
Speaker A:And even new thought proponents, if you.
Speaker A:You read the book, so you know this, even new thought proponents will watch Joel Osteen and say, yeah, that guy's just waving around a Bible, saying new thought things like, he is one of us.
Speaker A:And they like what he's saying.
Speaker A:So it should tell you that a new thought, somebody who's die hard new thought knows what new thought even is it, maybe they're in unity, right?
Speaker A:Looks at Joel Osteen.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:But then Christians, Christians who really understand, you know, maybe church history, the scriptures, look at Jolstein, Jolene, and go, no, no, what's this?
Speaker A:What are we doing here?
Speaker A:Let's back up.
Speaker A:That should give us great pause.
Speaker A:But I loved him, Oprah.
Speaker A:There's Eckhart Tolle.
Speaker A:I read the Secret.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:There were so many.
Speaker A:Emmett Fox, he's like an ancient new thought author.
Speaker A:Napoleon Hill, Norman Vincent Peale and these.
Speaker A:And then all the peripheral pop culture teachers that went along with that.
Speaker A:It was everywhere.
Speaker A:So even if nobody's heard of these people before, these teachings, as far as speaking things in existence, your mind has power to create your reality.
Speaker A:Positive thinking is a power.
Speaker A:It's not just you making your life better.
Speaker A:There's a power to it.
Speaker A:The divine mind is all around us.
Speaker A:And if you have an energy to you, you can actually change your circumstances because of that energy, like, you're a powerful being.
Speaker A:And oh, by the way, look, look, look.
Speaker A:It's right here in the Bible.
Speaker A:Look, Matthew 7.
Speaker A:7.
Speaker A:You have, you know, Mark 14 and all these other scriptures taken out of context.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Here, look.
Speaker A:Shoving it in your face saying, this is true Christianity.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So, like, that's how it was given to me.
Speaker A:So all that to say, to circle back to the beginning of my point here, when I got out of it and I was told, oh, this is New Age, right?
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, I'm in the New age.
Speaker A:And I started talking to ex New Agers.
Speaker A:They were not into any of that.
Speaker A:They were like into Reiki.
Speaker A:I'm like, what's that?
Speaker A:I'd never heard of Reiki before.
Speaker A:Let's see, what was the other one?
Speaker A:Oh, yoga.
Speaker A:I had no idea that yoga would have been considered New Age.
Speaker A:I'm like, really?
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:Yoga's New Age.
Speaker A:Ascended masters there.
Speaker A:There was a whole section of, of the New Age where there Was like maybe like inter dimensional beings, like mermaids and fairies, you know, and they weren't just mermaids and fairies.
Speaker A:They were actually spiritual beings in another dimension that you talked to starseeds.
Speaker A:I had no idea.
Speaker A:I did dabble a little bit with some of it.
Speaker A:Tarot cards.
Speaker A:I believed, I believed that people had spiritual gifts.
Speaker A:I, I went to go see a tarot card psychic a few times.
Speaker A:I messed around with crystals, you know, So, I mean, I dabbled in some of it, but it was always under the understanding that, oh, this is, this is scriptural.
Speaker A:So yeah, there is a definitive historical difference between the two.
Speaker A:And when I realized that it wasn't even until recently.
Speaker A:So if people didn't quite get it, like the average Christian doesn't quite understand, don't feel too bad.
Speaker A:I didn't, I was in this movement and I didn't get it until rather recently that there's a very big difference between the two.
Speaker B:You know what's so fun about this is you're talking, it's like we're on two sides of like a glass wall, like looking at the same thing.
Speaker B:Cause I had the exact same experience.
Speaker B:But my way into the things that you were exploring in New Thought was through the Kabbalah.
Speaker B:And so you're talking about all this manifesting and all this different stuff.
Speaker B:And that was what I got into.
Speaker B:That was my version of secret knowledge.
Speaker B:That was my version of the power of the mind.
Speaker B:That's what that all is about.
Speaker B:And that's a whole other conversation.
Speaker B:But I'm so curious.
Speaker B:I'm kind of wondering, like, if we had both, I don't know, 15 years ago.
Speaker B:I don't know what the timeline for your life was, but say we'll wind it back 10 years or when we were both deep in it.
Speaker B:I wonder about the conversation we would have had then.
Speaker A:Oh, I would have loved talking to you.
Speaker A:I would have been, oh my gosh, tell me more.
Speaker A:You know, and because for me, I was more like a pluralist.
Speaker A:It was always about what we all had in common.
Speaker A:And that it was, it was very, very just.
Speaker A:It was squishy.
Speaker A:There was no backbone to that.
Speaker A:It was, what do we have in common?
Speaker A:Love.
Speaker A:It was all about love, all about peace, all about finding what we had in common.
Speaker A:We all believed in God just in different ways.
Speaker A:So that was God's way of, you know, making sure that we all eventually ended up with him.
Speaker A:So I was a universalist.
Speaker A:I believed in that.
Speaker A:That aspect.
Speaker A:I would have looked at you like, oh man, he's got.
Speaker A:He's so spiritual, you know, like, he's spiritual like me.
Speaker A:It's okay if you don't believe in Jesus the way I believe in Jesus.
Speaker A:Tell me what you believe, though.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker B:I wasn't even close to a Christian.
Speaker B:I wasn't even close to a Christian, though.
Speaker A:Oh, that would have been not an issue for me.
Speaker A:I think I. I say that, but I would have tried to bring Jesus into the conversation.
Speaker A:But what I would have done is make a Jesus that was palatable to you.
Speaker A:I would have made a Jesus that's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker A:You don't understand.
Speaker A:Remember, the other Christians, they're the enemy.
Speaker A:They don't get it.
Speaker A:Look, look, let me tell you.
Speaker A:Jesus is way cooler than you think.
Speaker A:And I. I would have sold him to you in a way that would have probably piqued your interest, but would have been incorrect.
Speaker A:It would not have been biblical to.
Speaker A:It would not have been a biblical perspective.
Speaker A:It would have been a Jesus is your best friend kind of perspective.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Yeah, I, I.
Speaker B:And I would have loved that.
Speaker B:Because I lived in the San Francisco Bay area.
Speaker B:I didn't find.
Speaker B:I didn't know anyone who talked about Jesus at all.
Speaker B:And so I had no real preconceived notions, except for the Christians were the terrible people who were probably racist, you know, probably that idea.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But Jesus, like, I knew about Christ consciousness.
Speaker B:I didn't know.
Speaker B:I didn't really read much about it, but yeah, that sounds okay.
Speaker B:Like, there's this thing called the Bible that they're trying to shoehorn in.
Speaker B:I didn't know if it fit.
Speaker B:So that would have been a good conversation from my end.
Speaker B:I would have had a lot of questions for you about that Jesus, like, oh, yeah, that fits in really well with what I believe, too.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Bullseye.
Speaker A:I would have been.
Speaker A:I didn't have a word for this either, but I would have been a very, very progressive Christian, too, liberally speaking.
Speaker A:I would have been pro choice.
Speaker A:I would have been like, I voted for Obama.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:For no other reason than, oh, my gosh, he's black.
Speaker A:You know, I did.
Speaker B:That's all I'm saying.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker A:I would have been very progressive as a Christian, though, too.
Speaker A:I would have looked at, I guess, biblical Christianity.
Speaker A:Like, it was archaic.
Speaker A:And I just had this really.
Speaker A:This caricature of my.
Speaker A:In my mind of.
Speaker A:Remember, my first experience with Christians was like, y' all are dumb.
Speaker A:That's what I thought.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You guys don't know what you're saying, do you?
Speaker A:I am unimpressed.
Speaker A:Unimpressed with your answers.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:If this is Christianity, like, I want more.
Speaker A:And I was so hungry.
Speaker A:And that's the problem is I was so hungry to know more, teach me, give me more of this God.
Speaker A:I actually had really good intentions.
Speaker A:I wanted to learn.
Speaker A:And so that's what got me though, is the only thing that fed me were the people willing to give me some sort of sustenance.
Speaker A:So it was.
Speaker A:I didn't want to be associated with that.
Speaker A:Those are the bad guys.
Speaker A:I, I wanted to be looked at.
Speaker A:I wanted to, I didn't.
Speaker A:I wanted to give everybody a Jesus that wasn't like that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so I just kind of pendulumed and so.
Speaker A:And there's a whole thing behind that.
Speaker A:Actually, I have a counter.
Speaker A:Not a counter question.
Speaker A:A, A question for you.
Speaker A:Tell me briefly about the Kabbalah.
Speaker A:I'm actually really interested to know more about that.
Speaker A:It's come up a few times and I don't know that much about it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So the Kabbalah is just as a system is meant to teach you about the architecture of creation.
Speaker B:Like this is how God built reality progressively in stages.
Speaker B:It's deeply mystical, very esoteric, very, very old.
Speaker B:And so this is how God built reality.
Speaker B:And you are also God and you can claim God's power once you understand the architecture of creation, to manifest your will as well.
Speaker B:And so the training program that I took for the Kabbalah, it was a correspondence course through an online mystery school.
Speaker B:I would receive four letters in the MA mail for printed lessons in the mail every month that I would then study.
Speaker B:And the way that you learn the Kabbalah through this mystery school is through studying tarot cards.
Speaker B:So not fortune telling tools.
Speaker B:They're symbolic pictures so that you can learn the Kabbalah symbolically.
Speaker B:And so that was the program I got two years into a 15 year program.
Speaker A:What are the roots of it?
Speaker A:Is it.
Speaker A:It's Jewish, right?
Speaker A:Like Jewish mysticism.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:There's a Christian Kabbalah as well.
Speaker B:I personally think Kabbalah is older than that.
Speaker B:I think this school rooted itself in Egypt in Hermes Trismegistus, you know, the Thrice, which is like the guy that all East Western occultism and esotericism came from.
Speaker B:I think what might have happened is it hitched a ride out with the Hebrews during the Exodus.
Speaker B:That's my speculation.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:That's interesting to know about.
Speaker A:Yeah, it sounds, that sounds like a mess.
Speaker A:That sounds like that sounds like theosophy.
Speaker A:It sounds like New Age theosophy.
Speaker A:Some Gnosticism.
Speaker A:So the Kabbalahs, pretty old, right?
Speaker A:Like, it's going back.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I would say.
Speaker B:I would say in the West, Kabbalah, and in the East, Advaita, Vedanta, Hinduism.
Speaker B:Yeah, those are.
Speaker B:Those are two expressions of the exact same thing, which is Luciferianism, Satanism.
Speaker B:That's what.
Speaker B:That's what I think it is.
Speaker B:I don't think it's specifically Jewish in that way.
Speaker A:Got it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The only other time I've understood the context of it is in a Jewish context.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because there are still schools that are teaching it.
Speaker B:But to actually study the teachings of the Kabbalah, they're clearly much older and from another source.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Maybe we'll have to do a piggyback interview.
Speaker A:I'll have you back on my channel.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because I'm like, man, tell me, teach me.
Speaker A:Because there's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's, like, overlap, but I don't know what that is.
Speaker A:And I always love learning about.
Speaker B:You froze.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like occultic.
Speaker A:This is our.
Speaker A:This is our thing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's like you get.
Speaker A:You get sucked up into it or you've been deceived by it, and all of a sudden there's a lot of these other peripheral occult beliefs that we want to know about and learn about.
Speaker A:I love weird spiritualities.
Speaker A:Kind of like, as a history buff, though, too, I think it just makes us wiser for witnessing, for the gospel.
Speaker B:Well, we share something in common, which was a spiritual hunger.
Speaker B:And so you went to this world of new thought out of an expression of spiritual hunger, and you kept asking questions, and so did I.
Speaker B:And we had two different paths that now lead here, which is pretty cool.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But what was it that led you out of new thought?
Speaker B:What was that?
Speaker B:What was the thing that started to crack the shell?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:This is so funny, because the.
Speaker A:The things that God has used to get me out of deception are just not what you'd think.
Speaker A:I didn't have, like, some church revival.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:When I heard the gospel, it was like a drunk dude at a party.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:He just got saved.
Speaker A:And he was still kind of, you know, backsliding a little bit, but he was there telling the gospel, let me tell you.
Speaker A:And I believed him.
Speaker A:And then this time around, it was two Jehovah's Witnesses.
Speaker A:I actually put them in the acknowledgments of my book because God used them.
Speaker A:And I even wrote when they broke up with me, inevitably they broke up with me because of course I'm not going to.
Speaker A:Yeah, I was like, I'm not going to become a Jada.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker A:And I knew, I knew it was coming to an end.
Speaker A:I got her some gerber daisies and I wrote her a letter.
Speaker A:And I hope she still has it.
Speaker A:But I remember saying in that letter, like, you will never know how much God actually used you.
Speaker A:And it was for.
Speaker A:That was more for me.
Speaker A:But this is what that story is because I had my first daughter.
Speaker A:When was she born?
Speaker A:2010.
Speaker A: And so this was around: Speaker A:She's getting older.
Speaker A:And you know, when you have kids, you start getting really reflective.
Speaker A:And I still, I'm still like this with my girls, just reflecting all the time about what's going on in the culture and preparing them.
Speaker A:And so one thing about New thought to know is that it's, it will say that it will teach rather the, the teachings in general make you think like you have this higher knowledge.
Speaker A:But because you're always trying to keep a positive mindset, because you're always trying to be on a high vibration, you don't really have room to think critically because critical thinking is kind of seen as negative thinking.
Speaker A:And so that wall got broken a little bit after I had my daughter, because I was, I, I had it all up in my head.
Speaker A:I was gonna manifest how I was gonna have her.
Speaker A:I, I did everything right, let's just put it that way.
Speaker A:I did everything right.
Speaker A:I had the right energy, I had the right thoughts, I spoke the right things.
Speaker A:And all of it fell apart.
Speaker A:Nothing happened.
Speaker A:And I was, I was floored because I'm like you.
Speaker A:I remember you mentioning some things worked for you.
Speaker A:Like you, you practiced these things and you saw results and so did I.
Speaker A:And so I expected this to happen.
Speaker A:And it was like a really big wake up call.
Speaker A:So that was like the first time that I'm like, okay, maybe I need to think a little bit more about this.
Speaker A:So I just kind of leaned a little bit more into that.
Speaker A:And then I started thinking, okay, I have more questions.
Speaker A:I don't really quite understand this.
Speaker A:I've been told this, I've been reading about this, but I still don't quite get the problem.
Speaker A:Like, for example, with hell, I had such a problem, no matter.
Speaker A:I wasn't satisfied even as a universalist, because then I still had the problem of justice.
Speaker A:I didn't like.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:It's like the opposite, right?
Speaker A:I wasn't happy either way.
Speaker A:I, I didn't like the idea of hell Because God's just throwing people in hell.
Speaker A:I didn't understand.
Speaker A:What about people who've never heard of Jesus?
Speaker A:You and that face of the Christian who's never actually thought about their faith.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know why?
Speaker A:It's because God is all love.
Speaker A:Of course he's going to accept everybody into heaven.
Speaker A:You know, once people know that God is real, they're going to.
Speaker A:They're going to be overwhelmed by that love, and they're going to find it's garbage.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So I had this problem, though, because then I played the movie forward, and I'm like, well, I have another problem then that's kind of worse than that.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:If something horrible happens, if somebody does something objectively atrocious, they don't have to pay for it.
Speaker A:They don't.
Speaker A:There's no justice here, is there?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Like, I. I would see terrible things happening, which you're not supposed to do, by the way.
Speaker A:You're supposed to only.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're only.
Speaker A:Only supposed to have positive things in your life.
Speaker A:It just got me thinking, okay, Like, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm starting to kind of lean a little bit more into.
Speaker A:Into it.
Speaker A:But I was not sold yet.
Speaker A:I was absolutely.
Speaker A:Still very hard in my beliefs.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:And then two Jehovah's Witnesses show up at my door, and I'm like, oh, they're gonna teach me the Bible.
Speaker A:They're gonna.
Speaker A:They're gonna tell me all these things, like, what's in here?
Speaker A:And I had no idea.
Speaker A:I thought if you said you were a Christian, then you are good to go, right?
Speaker A:Like, you believe in God in your own way, we're all good.
Speaker A:But that's not the case.
Speaker A:Around the fourth visit, I realized y' all believe in some weird things.
Speaker A:What's happening here?
Speaker A:And I started researching.
Speaker A:I felt God, I felt this urge to go research this religion.
Speaker A:And it was in researching their religion first I discovered, oh, dang, they're a cult.
Speaker A:And by ex Jehovah's Witnesses who have left this religion.
Speaker A:And they're telling you about mind control.
Speaker A:Like, what is mind control?
Speaker A:What is a cult?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And I'm like, wow, this is interesting.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But something started happening because they're Christians now, and they sounded really smart, and they sounded really smart, but they're.
Speaker A:They're telling their story how they got out of Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, how they got out of the cult, out of their religion.
Speaker A:And they're talking about Jesus and they're talking about the Bible and they're talking about Hell, the Trinity, they're talking about core doctrines that I was very squishy on.
Speaker A:And what ended up happening is like, oh, man.
Speaker A:Okay, well, if.
Speaker A:If what they're saying is true, then what I believe may not be true.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And so that dance started dancing.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:And I think, really, that started happening.
Speaker A:And so there's more softening, I guess, going on.
Speaker A:Like, as time goes on, it's like a clay.
Speaker A:Like, it's.
Speaker A:It's pretty hard, but then there's water being added to it, and so slowly it's getting softened.
Speaker A:And I think what really just wiped the whole thing away and I'm like, okay, oh, no, I need to repent, was when I came across an online forum of a Christian kind of arguing with a New Ager.
Speaker A:But it wasn't arguing.
Speaker A:It was like, Charlie Kirk, critical thinking.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker A:What do you mean by that?
Speaker A:You know, kind of.
Speaker A:Kind of arguing.
Speaker A:And I was so compelled because I'd never seen that.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:This is right around the time I got introduced to, like, Frank Turek.
Speaker A:Right away, I didn't like him at first, though, because, remember, I came from, like, I thought k. Love was negative.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So if you hear the tone of voice of Frank Turek, you're like, oh, he's mean.
Speaker A:Like, he could say that a lot nicer.
Speaker A:And so it took me a while to even warm up to him, but it was like, the first time I heard or I saw, like, intellectual debate, I guess.
Speaker A:I didn't know that's really what it was at the time, but I.
Speaker A:He wasn't being mean.
Speaker A:He wasn't being snarky.
Speaker A:He wasn't being dismissive.
Speaker A:He was welcoming.
Speaker A:This is the feel I got for it.
Speaker A:I don't quite understand exactly what it was.
Speaker A:I do remember one aspect, of course, but that.
Speaker A:That caught my attention.
Speaker A:Okay, so I'm reading the thread, and this is before Facebook.
Speaker A:No, this was after Facebook.
Speaker A:But this is when online forums were still a thing, and the New Ager was basically saying, like, yeah, this is something that God teaches, you know, that we can all be God.
Speaker A:Like, this is.
Speaker A:This is the secret that's being kept from you.
Speaker A:Or something like that.
Speaker A:He's going on.
Speaker A:But what caught my eye was when the Christian was like, ye will be as God.
Speaker A:I was like, man, that sounds like a slimy serpent to me.
Speaker A:And I'm like, oh, it does.
Speaker A:I was like, it does sound like Satan.
Speaker A:Oh, my word.
Speaker A:And it just blew my mind.
Speaker A:Blew my mind.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:That pulled the rug out from me, spiritually speaking.
Speaker A:And that was it.
Speaker A:My guard was down, and I leaned into it.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, okay, I can see it now.
Speaker A:The scales are off.
Speaker A:Let's.
Speaker A:Let's dig in more here.
Speaker A:Because before, I wouldn't go into these.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So, like, you have a. I wouldn't go into online spaces that were critical of my things.
Speaker A:That was too close to home.
Speaker A:But if you wanted to tell me why Mormonism was wrong, or Jehovah's Witnesses, yes, let's talk about that.
Speaker A:But again, I had a problem, and I was just stifling it.
Speaker A:I was hiding it.
Speaker A:I wasn't ready.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I wasn't ready.
Speaker A:That was an open door.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, I'm ready now.
Speaker A:All right, give me the hard truth.
Speaker A:I. I want the hard truth.
Speaker A:Tell me all the things.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:And I repented.
Speaker A:And that was the.
Speaker A: That was: Speaker A:And I've.
Speaker A:I've been leaning in ever since.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I love how it was the question of.
Speaker B:Of justice, which is kind of the other side of the problem of evil.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The problem of justice is like, well, why is that?
Speaker B:How can there be no cosmic justice if we're all God and someone does something really terrible?
Speaker B:Is there no punishment for this?
Speaker B:Do they just get away with it in the afterlife?
Speaker B:And you get to be as much God as I am?
Speaker B:Like, why should I bother being a good person if we're all just God?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:It grates once that little sand gets in the oyster.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:You're exactly right.
Speaker A:And I thought, okay, well, my beliefs say, well, you ought to be good.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:There's an oughtness, I suppose, the philosophical way, if you're going to be Thomistic about it.
Speaker A:That's not the way I would have put it.
Speaker A:But there was always this higher good of love.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's kind of the flavor in which it's given.
Speaker A:And it seemed.
Speaker A:And it sound.
Speaker A:Sounded loving, but I. I just.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:Again, I didn't think about the inconsistencies there.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, well, if that's what it is, we can't.
Speaker A:We can't actually live that out, though.
Speaker A:We can't even do that.
Speaker A:In other words, it looked good on paper.
Speaker A:It looked good on paper.
Speaker A:It's like socialism, right?
Speaker A:It's like, oh, man, everybody should just be giving to each other.
Speaker A:Everybody should just be this.
Speaker A:Should.
Speaker A:Should just be that.
Speaker A:But they don't take into account.
Speaker A:And here's where they get it wrong.
Speaker A:Because a new thought, the idea is that humans are inherently good, that we're Bent towards goodness.
Speaker A:That's the mistake.
Speaker A:That's the mistake.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You can't.
Speaker A:That was a paradigm shift for me.
Speaker A:I mean, I accepted the gospel and I understood it, and I believed Jesus.
Speaker A:I accepted it or accepted him.
Speaker A:I accepted the gospel.
Speaker A:And there was such an innocence there.
Speaker A:There was no growth, like, real growth, growth.
Speaker A:From that point, it was like a pause button.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And then from there, it was like, boom.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:It's like, oh, that's why.
Speaker A:That's important, that doctrine.
Speaker A:That's why God's like this.
Speaker A:Like, you learn about the attributes of God, and then.
Speaker A:And then to make it better, there was this whole other side of Christianity that I'd never known before.
Speaker A:Like, I'm going to seminary.
Speaker A:Going to Southern Evangelical Seminary.
Speaker A:Oh, my word.
Speaker A:That I. I don't get most of my classes.
Speaker A:And I love it because it's so deep.
Speaker A:I'm a man.
Speaker A:There are.
Speaker A:There's a deep, rich intellect in the Christian faith.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:There you guys are.
Speaker A:Where were you, like, 10 years ago?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And so Frank, right, First, first, first tap right on.
Speaker A:On apologetics.
Speaker A:And then Sean McDowell and Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel's always been around, but, I mean, he's kind of.
Speaker A:You know, it was before the Internet was a thing, and all of a sudden, it was just this whole new world opened for me.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, man, this is my jam.
Speaker A:People love answering questions.
Speaker A:Nobody's turning me away.
Speaker A:And there was this, this.
Speaker A:This element of being looking at your mind and even your doubts.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Elisa deals a lot with progressive Christianity and.
Speaker A:And how people are afraid to doubt.
Speaker A:And I'm like, no, test that.
Speaker A:Like, test what you're believing.
Speaker A:Is it true?
Speaker A:And that was so weird in the beginning for everybody because they were.
Speaker A:They were, like, afraid to think.
Speaker A:And I'm like, no, there's an.
Speaker A:There's an element of.
Speaker A:Of caution when it comes to, like, overthinking.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Where your knowledge can puff up.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But the scripture says to love God with all your heart and mind, so how are we to obey that without having some essence of critical thinking?
Speaker A:And I think it was C.S.
Speaker A:lewis.
Speaker A:C.S.
Speaker A:lewis said that we ought to study good philosophy because bad philosophy exists.
Speaker A:And there was just deep, deep teachings about God and.
Speaker A:And natural law.
Speaker A:I'd never known what natural law was.
Speaker A:Like, how you can prove God exists by not quoting a scripture.
Speaker A:Like, just by using.
Speaker A:Using your logic, using your mind, reasoning.
Speaker A:But also the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The human spirit.
Speaker A:Like, you're bringing in consciousness, you're bringing in all these elements that are Inherently Christian.
Speaker A:And you, you reason from that aspect.
Speaker A:It's, it's.
Speaker A:It was exactly what I needed.
Speaker A:And I, I love it.
Speaker A:Still to this day, I, I really lean into that.
Speaker B:What I love about everything that you're saying is that you're reflecting back thoughts that I've had during my own journey.
Speaker B:Like, like, I can remember saying things like this to, to myself.
Speaker B:Like, for me, it was the problem of evil.
Speaker B:Like, it was.
Speaker B:It was a child sex trafficking.
Speaker B:Like, wait, if, if karma, if karma is real, you're gonna tell me it was when I learned about that?
Speaker B:Like, are you gonna tell that kid that that's their karma, that they did something in a past life to deserve this?
Speaker B:And I could.
Speaker B:Are you gonna tell, like, Jeffrey Epstein, like, yeah, it was your karma to be this guy.
Speaker B:Like, you're gonna look those people in the eye and say that anyone, like, they would change the subject.
Speaker B:They'd say, like, love and light.
Speaker B:Love and light.
Speaker B:It's like, well, don't just go love and light.
Speaker B:I couldn't find anyone.
Speaker B:And so going through this, I also had the same beliefs like you.
Speaker B:Christianity is anti intellectual.
Speaker B:And then I discover reformed theology, and I've got giant books of it up on the shelf.
Speaker B:And the thing is, it all hangs together.
Speaker B:And like you said, it can withstand internal criticism.
Speaker B:New age and new thought do not permit internal criticism because there's nowhere to stand to criticize them.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker A:You're exactly right.
Speaker A:Spot on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's so much there as well, because the idea is, is that the truth factor.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Another one of my heroes and mentors is Greg Kokel, and there is an element of thinking about truth that I think we take for granted.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:We're just.
Speaker A:Oh, of course.
Speaker A:Objective truth.
Speaker A:Why would anybody think there's anything other than objective truth?
Speaker A:Yeah, relativism.
Speaker A:I mean, that, that dude, that, that guy thinks he's a cat.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And our, and our.
Speaker B:Our or thinks he's a woman.
Speaker A:Yeah, man thinks he's a woman.
Speaker A:Who's a cat.
Speaker A:Maybe, you know, a hobbit too.
Speaker A:Who knows?
Speaker A:But it's like you have this element now of, of truth being completely distorted and people are flocking to it, and it's spiritual warfare.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, we're having this element.
Speaker A:If you have, if you have a whole group of people that are just flocking to a lie, chances are the father of lies is behind it.
Speaker A:And I think that there's, there's wisdom there to, to understand that if we can understand what's true about reality, we Will greatly understand God.
Speaker A:You know, it's something that's interesting about the karma thing.
Speaker A:Did you see.
Speaker A:Speaking of Greg Koukl, did you see his interview with diary of a CEO on that YouTube channel or any parts of it?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Oh, it's interesting.
Speaker A:You should watch it.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:I think that Gret.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I'm biased.
Speaker A:I think he should have had more time to talk, but.
Speaker A:But there was one dude at the table.
Speaker A:What was his name?
Speaker A:Doctor.
Speaker A:Dr. K. I'd never heard of him before, but, ooh, is he sprightly.
Speaker A:He is an extrovert.
Speaker A:He would absolutely exhaust me.
Speaker A:But he was a Hindu.
Speaker A:But he was also spiritual.
Speaker A:That was interesting.
Speaker A:But he was at the table with Alex o'.
Speaker A:Connor.
Speaker A:Do you know who that is?
Speaker A:So it was Alex O', Connor, Greg, and Dr. K. And yeah.
Speaker A:So Dr. K. I love people who are honest about what they believe, and they stay consistent in that belief.
Speaker A:And he was talking about karma.
Speaker A:And Alex, who is very, very just.
Speaker A:He's a force to be reckoned with.
Speaker A:I mean, he's on it.
Speaker A:He's very aligned intellectually.
Speaker A:And so he's asking about this problem of evil that was coming up.
Speaker A:It was the topic.
Speaker A:And this is my memory.
Speaker A:I'm probably.
Speaker A:I'm a little fuzzy on that.
Speaker A:But I do remember that Dr. K was bringing up karma, the issue of karma, that he has to deal with people who are sick or dying.
Speaker A:And he straight up.
Speaker A:And I'm paraphrasing, but he straight up backed up what you just said.
Speaker A:That there's a.
Speaker A:There's a.
Speaker A:You cannot.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:You can't help somebody because you'll mess up their karma and just go to.
Speaker B:India and you'll see that manifesting everywhere.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And that's their answer.
Speaker A:Because if you believe that, the way that he explained it was probably the best way I've ever heard it, honestly.
Speaker A:And I think that that's actually a good lesson to understand what it is they believe and why.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, I get it.
Speaker A:I understand why they wouldn't.
Speaker A:It's still garbage.
Speaker A:But now I get why.
Speaker A:Because it's like, oh, in another life.
Speaker A:Life, you're trying to work off that karma, and this is your payment for your past sins.
Speaker A:So if I help you, I'm hurting you, because I.
Speaker A:You then cannot.
Speaker A:You're gonna.
Speaker A:You're gonna have to deal with this in another lifetime.
Speaker A:Because then I went and helped you and messed up your karma and then therefore messed up mine.
Speaker A:I was like, oh, my.
Speaker A:I hate that that makes sense.
Speaker A:But I hate that he believes this like, he thinks it's true.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker A:I had a very twisted view of karma, where if you didn't believe in Jesus or if you didn't believe in God, then you would just be reincarnated.
Speaker A:Maybe until you did believe him somehow, some way.
Speaker A:It was real squishy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:I think once I first encountered Christianity, I kind of.
Speaker B:Once I was transitioning, I got baptized, and I was starting to leave these thoughts behind and really subject them to scrutiny.
Speaker B:I think there was a period of time.
Speaker B:I can't say for how long, maybe a couple months, where I was like, okay, all these religions are equal paths up the mountain, but only Christianity gets you the rest of the way.
Speaker B:I think I probably believe that for a very, very brief moment in time.
Speaker B:And then I was like, wait a minute.
Speaker B:All these other religions are really, really wrong.
Speaker B:That's really.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:And that was a.
Speaker B:That was a big moment for me.
Speaker B:I'll never forget when that kind of clicked over, because I was the guy who.
Speaker B:Who literally chased down the world's religions.
Speaker B:I've been to 30 countries around the world.
Speaker B:India, China, I've been to South America, wanting to understand these world religions.
Speaker B:And so I was.
Speaker B:I was a universalist like you all.
Speaker B:The perennial.
Speaker B:A perennial Perennialist.
Speaker B:Carl Tyre, you know, who you.
Speaker B:Who you mentioned.
Speaker A:I love him.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:He has a section in Game of Gods where he talks about Perennial man at the end.
Speaker A:I got it right there.
Speaker B:Oh, you got it right there.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker A:There it is, holding up my microphone.
Speaker B:That's a good place to put it, actually.
Speaker B:And so he talks about Perennial man towards the end of that book.
Speaker B:And I'm reading this in the podcast with him.
Speaker B:Like, Carl, you're describing basically, the guy who was me.
Speaker B:And so to set all that aside was a big moment.
Speaker B:It did make sense in a damnable sort of way, but it can't produce righteousness.
Speaker B:And you travel around the world and you see that.
Speaker B:India is a great example.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It sounds like you have so much.
Speaker A:You had so much more experience than I did as far as, like, going and actually doing things right.
Speaker A:Like, I read books and I watched people, and you actually went on, like, a trip around the world.
Speaker A:But there's like a.
Speaker A:Where was it you were mentioning, Carl?
Speaker A:Oh, the perennial.
Speaker A:The perennialism.
Speaker A:I'd never even heard of that term, for example.
Speaker A:And that's even a term that's coming up more and more lately because of people like Richard Rohr.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You have perennial wisdom.
Speaker A:He's so annoying because he's like the Pope of progressive Christianity, but.
Speaker A:Yeah, but he's not.
Speaker A:He says he's Catholic, but he's not.
Speaker A:Says that he's Christian, but he's not.
Speaker A:He's a progressive, but what does that mean?
Speaker A:He also has a lot of perennial wisdom.
Speaker A:He has this, he has that.
Speaker A:He's like pinning down a cloud and it's just really annoying.
Speaker A:And so learning about what that is, like that line of thinking, that line of belief, it's so interesting to see.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, I held onto that too.
Speaker A:And you didn't realize it.
Speaker A:So there's still things that I'm learning about what I used to believe in and what kind of things I dabbled in.
Speaker A:Because it's not just this bucket or that bucket.
Speaker A:Like New Age, for example, a lot of New Age can be, you know, aligned with theosophy.
Speaker A:But does anybody really know what Theosophy is?
Speaker A:Like, the average Christian probably doesn't.
Speaker B:Yes, exactly.
Speaker B:I mean, New Age essentially is theosophy, but commercialized and commoditized and then you throw a bunch of psychedelic drugs at it and congratulations, you have a New Age dude.
Speaker A:That's like the formula.
Speaker A:That's a mathematical, spiritual formula.
Speaker A:The oste plus New Age, maybe a crystal ball with some psychedelics equals New Age, basically.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, it's very external.
Speaker A:That's the way that Carl put it.
Speaker A:New Thought is more internal, New Age is more external.
Speaker B:But I think what makes New Thought really interesting is that you have sort of titans of industry like Dale Carnegie and Napoleon Hill, you know, and Wallace Wattles and all.
Speaker B:You have these put together professional men that will openly profess these ideas.
Speaker B:It's not, you know, it's not Tommy with the man bun and the yoga mat that it's a very different perspective.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because that goes into the, the American thread that I brought up before.
Speaker A:Because again, this is a movement like it started somewhere and I, I trace that history.
Speaker A:I have a whole chapter on that.
Speaker A:And then terms, I define terms because you have like the spiritual aspect of it, but you also have, you also have very, you know, big people that had a lot of influence because that's what New Age or New Thought is.
Speaker A:Is that it?
Speaker A:It has more influence than recognition.
Speaker A:And you had people who had big recognition.
Speaker A:Napoleon Hill of people still read his book.
Speaker A:It's still a bestseller.
Speaker A:Yeah, Dale Carnegie.
Speaker A:People aren't happy about Dale Carnegie being in the New Thought thread, but he is you know, and those are just two.
Speaker A:There's so many more, but those are the two that most people recognize who spearheaded, laid the foundation for the self help movement.
Speaker A:And that's the idea, is that part of it was, you can do this on your own.
Speaker A:You are enough.
Speaker A:You don't need God.
Speaker A:You are God.
Speaker A:Here's.
Speaker A:Here's how.
Speaker A:And then the thing about Napoleon Hill, for example, I call this the it works trap, because new thought as a historical movement is very pragmatic, right?
Speaker A:If it works well, then it must be good and it must be true.
Speaker A:It must be true and it must be good.
Speaker A:Those two things are very.
Speaker A:And that's actually.
Speaker A:And you.
Speaker A:I learned this at Southern Evangelical Seminary, by the way, is that.
Speaker A:That's a theory of truth.
Speaker A:There's theories of truth out there.
Speaker A:I'm like, what, what is this?
Speaker A:We mostly, as Christians ascribe to what's called this, the.
Speaker A:The correspondence theory of truth, which is reality is what corresponds.
Speaker A:Truth is what corresponds to reality.
Speaker A:That's what's what truth is.
Speaker A:But then you have other people who have.
Speaker A:Who see truth differently.
Speaker A:Truth is from within your true, authentic self, which is a big new thought word.
Speaker A:But that's also in other spiritualities, is where you're going to hear truth, your intuition from within.
Speaker A:Very.
Speaker A:Ralph Aldo Emerson, who was a transcendentalist, he was a New thought father as well.
Speaker A:And that within that truth within.
Speaker A:Well, that's where you hear truth, right?
Speaker A:And so you have these elements sprinkled into these books that sold to millions.
Speaker A:And I have a whole video, by the way, on Napoleon Hill, specifically about what a fraud he was and his connections to new Thought.
Speaker A:But that's a whole other thing.
Speaker A:But he does say some things that are very good.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He says things in his book that I'm like, man, that's great advice.
Speaker A:People should do that.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It works.
Speaker A:It's true.
Speaker A:But then you start believing that stuff.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, what else.
Speaker A:What else you got?
Speaker A:This is really working for me.
Speaker A:In fact, I became rich because of this.
Speaker A:What else you got?
Speaker A:Well, here's the divine mind garbage.
Speaker A:I'm going to feed you now about how, you know, I've had these conversations with these other beings, and they gave me wisdom.
Speaker A:These were my mastermind.
Speaker A:This is my mastermind class.
Speaker A:Here's how you do this.
Speaker A:Because this is all part of this divine mind that we're all a part of, and you have access to it, too.
Speaker A:Oh, that's great.
Speaker A:Thank you, Mr. Hill.
Speaker A:And so it's like, because this worked, we Adopt these other things that are pseudo, right?
Speaker A:Like a pseudo spirituality that are false.
Speaker A:And we do this all the time.
Speaker A:It's not just with spirituality.
Speaker A:Somebody says that, you know, a healing, a sign, wonder or miracle.
Speaker A:Well, it worked.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:They healed me.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:I have to devote my life to them now.
Speaker A:Thank you, Mr. Costi Hinn, or no Benny Hinn.
Speaker A:Thank you, Mr. Benny Hinn, for healing me.
Speaker A:You must be a true prophet.
Speaker A:Therefore, everything you say, I'm gonna believe.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's the it works trap.
Speaker A:And so testing is very important.
Speaker A:Knowing how to test what you're experiencing in a critical lens is very important.
Speaker A:We do it with, like, face creams, right?
Speaker A:Like, hey, this face cream got rid of my wrinkles.
Speaker A:What else you got?
Speaker A:Well, here.
Speaker A:Here is the.
Speaker A:This body spray that will align your chakras, right?
Speaker A:And you're like, oh, yay, give it to me.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, it's like this whole thing is kind of packaged together.
Speaker A:That is ultimately the simplest way that I could put what new thought does.
Speaker A:This is how we start believing in new thought ideas.
Speaker A:We read a book that we think is secular, or we go to, like, an AA group, which is so tricky because AA has helped so many people.
Speaker A:Alcoholics Anonymous.
Speaker A:But the big book, Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, that book, I think it was written or inspired by Emmett Fox, which is a new thought author.
Speaker A:I have to go back and check that.
Speaker A:I think, yeah, I have to go back and check that.
Speaker A:But there's new thought influence there.
Speaker A:Like, it's really tricky because what do you do if you've gone to AA and you're like, it healed me.
Speaker A:Like, it helped me.
Speaker A:This was the only thing that helped me overcome my alcoholism.
Speaker A:So I think that those are difficult conversations to have, and I think that's one reason why it's difficult to spot and point out.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And this is showing up.
Speaker B:I came from the manosphere.
Speaker B:I was in that world for a while.
Speaker B:And you see this with a lot of young men as well, who like, oh, yeah, this influencer helped get me out of my passivity and get my life on track.
Speaker A:Yeah, Andrew Pace.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:That's exactly right.
Speaker B:And so it's like, yeah, it worked, but.
Speaker B:But what is attached?
Speaker B:What's the caboose of worldview of beliefs that is attached to everything that you just said?
Speaker B:And guys will say, but he says some good things.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, but can you separate the good things from the other things?
Speaker B:Are you willing to carve out that one little piece of advice, or is there someplace else you can Go to get that same piece of advice.
Speaker A:You're exactly right.
Speaker A:And then you have to worry about, well, what's good advice and what's bad advice?
Speaker A:What's your discernment meter?
Speaker A:Because Scripture is very clear that we ought to properly judge.
Speaker A:And that's all judgment is, is having good discernment of knowing right from wrong and truth from false.
Speaker A:But that requires first knowing what truth is.
Speaker A:And I'm sure I could listen to Andrew Tate and be like, oh, okay, that's, that's good.
Speaker A:The rest is garbage.
Speaker A:But why do I.
Speaker A:Why do I know that?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So, yeah, and I think we practice that with what we do.
Speaker A:Because I, I. I don't know about you, but I read a lot of books that I don't agree with.
Speaker A:And you have to know that it's a.
Speaker A:It would be a cheap shot to say everything in here is terrible, just like it would be a cheap shot to say all of it's good.
Speaker A:It's like you kind of.
Speaker A:You have to have this fair lens on.
Speaker B:I appreciate you saying that, because one of the parts of my backstory is ayahuasca.
Speaker B:Perhaps you've heard of that.
Speaker A:Is that a drug?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's like a.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Yeah, the, the.
Speaker B:The mystical vine.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That you go down to South America and drink.
Speaker A:Oh, yes.
Speaker A:I know exactly what that is.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So I have.
Speaker B:I've done 15 ayahuasca ceremonies before I became a Christian.
Speaker B:And so I've got a tattoo on my arm.
Speaker B:You can kind of see it.
Speaker B:That's an ayahuasca vine.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, I don't know if you can see that.
Speaker A:I can, yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I'm getting ready to write a.
Speaker B:It's sort of a research paper, a white paper about it, just helping people explain.
Speaker B:Explain to them from a Christian worldview, like, what's actually going on, demystifying it in a way.
Speaker B:I've got a shelf full of books just out of frame up there that are all about ayahuasca from within, like, pro ayahuasca literature.
Speaker B:So I'm preparing to read through all of that so I can accurately reflect their views.
Speaker B:Not just my personal experience, but, like, what's actually written.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, that's good advice to be discerning.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's actually a good observation about humans or about relationships.
Speaker B:But consider.
Speaker B:Consider the source, you might say.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I think it's very.
Speaker A:That's what I did for my book.
Speaker A:I didn't want to.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was probably my favorite part, was the research, because not only did I.
Speaker A:It was like, I think of apologetics like a spiritual journalism, like a Christian journalist.
Speaker A:I'm going out.
Speaker A:I really want to know what you believe and why you believe it.
Speaker A:But it was boots on the ground research of going into the spaces, unity centers, Unitarian Universalist, religious science, going to any place that I knew that somebody, progressive churches, people that believed in these beliefs and asked them questions, why do you believe that?
Speaker A:What is that?
Speaker A:And it was so fun.
Speaker A:These people were so nice.
Speaker A:I did not, I did not have one hostile conversation.
Speaker A:Not one.
Speaker A:Every one of them was willing to talk, and I disagreed with them.
Speaker A:But, I mean, yeah, but I think that there's an element of wisdom in, in getting their perspective.
Speaker A:If I'm gonna say, this is what New Thought is, I had better have source material.
Speaker A:I love source material.
Speaker A:And all I'm looking on my shelf, all the books that I used, you know, resources, sources that I quoted, footnotes, if you will, in my book that I cited were from New thought sources, original new thought sources.
Speaker A:And so there has to.
Speaker A:And even then, even then, I'm still learning.
Speaker A:But what's difficult about New Thought is they love moving the goalposts.
Speaker A:And you read my book, so you know about one conversation I had with a reverend, and I'm pretty sure it's in the progressive.
Speaker A:Yeah, man.
Speaker A:It's in the progressive.
Speaker A:Dr. Oh, my.
Speaker A:That, that, that was half the experience, though.
Speaker A:They were very kind, but a lot of them were very inconsistent and they could care less.
Speaker A:They don't care.
Speaker A:And that drives me nuts.
Speaker A:That's what I was saying before.
Speaker A:I'm like, Dr. K, thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you for having a backbone and at least telling people exactly what you believe, even if it's hard, because then I, then I can actually wrestle with that.
Speaker A:I can think about it.
Speaker A:But if you're over here being all squishy, if you're over here being all floofy and fluffy and just kind of changing the goalposts because I.
Speaker A:How am I supposed to actually steel, man, your argument?
Speaker A:How can I say that this is something good and ought to be believed if you can't even give me a definition of what you believe and then stick with it?
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I think that's a frustration that makes it difficult for me in this camp.
Speaker A:I'm sure you've had the same frustration, because I do genuinely want to understand.
Speaker A:And I, I sometimes I get criticized for maybe not coming out with my gloves off.
Speaker A:I guess I don't like that.
Speaker A:I, I think people Maybe people that have heard my story, again, they neglect that.
Speaker A:I know what that looks like.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And sometimes you need that.
Speaker A:But to fall into this legalism ditch, I don't think is any better.
Speaker A:I think that there's a way to go about and be very bold and very firm in your beliefs without hardening your heart and without becoming a bully.
Speaker A:And part of that is, again, I'm gonna say Charlie Kirk.
Speaker A:I mean, going out and having conversations with people eye to eye.
Speaker A:Because for me personally, one reason why I like that is because it's really hard to forget that somebody's made in the image of God.
Speaker A:When you're staring at them in the eye and you're having a conversation and you see their children, right?
Speaker A:You see that they.
Speaker A:Oh, they have a life and they have feelings.
Speaker A:And, man, tell me your story.
Speaker A:What's going on here?
Speaker A:Like, why do you believe this?
Speaker A:What about that?
Speaker A:What about this?
Speaker A:And there is a leaning into that that I noticed in these conversations when they're like, oh, oh, you're a Christian.
Speaker A:Like, yeah, well, tell me more.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, I wasn't in there to fight with them.
Speaker A:I. I was in there to challenge them in our conversation, but I. I was in there with a goal to properly understand them, because that's the right thing to do, you know, So, I mean, we.
Speaker A:There's a lot to go off on that.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I think there's something to be said for source material.
Speaker A:Respecting the source material and then demolishing it, like in a biblical way, and then having a good conversation about it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The intention is to win the man, not the argument.
Speaker B:But you bring up something I was really curious about, and I'm grateful that you brought up the story of how you chose to approach the book.
Speaker B:Cause reading it, I was aware that there are lots of different ways that you could have approached the subject, that you could have come at it as a personal narrative.
Speaker B:So many different.
Speaker B:But you chose, it seemed to me, to approach it in a very scholarly, a personable, scholarly way, rich on sources, history, endnotes, citations, and, of course, in person, interviews.
Speaker B:It was a pretty massive effort to write this book, even though it's not a massive effort to read, which is its own effort.
Speaker B:What was behind the decision to approach it that way?
Speaker B:Because I can imagine, maybe you would be able to tell me, are there Christian scholarly books that have been written on this topic?
Speaker B:I would imagine not.
Speaker A:Yeah, no.
Speaker A:No, there's not.
Speaker A:And that was.
Speaker A:This was not easy to write this book.
Speaker A:This was the hardest thing I've ever Done.
Speaker A:Because nobody's ever written about it.
Speaker A:And that's why people like Carl.
Speaker A:Yeah, Carl.
Speaker A:That man is Christianity's best kept secret.
Speaker A:I swear, he is a wealthy.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker A:Yeah, man.
Speaker A:Like, can we get Carl Ty crib to do a West Huff, please?
Speaker A:Because he is brilliant.
Speaker A:He is one of the smartest people I know.
Speaker A:And he was such a help for me in understanding Swedenborg, new thought in general, the transcendentalist stuff.
Speaker A:Like, he's just brilliant.
Speaker A:And so I had my resources and Carl was so readily available because that's what he is.
Speaker A:He's like our dad.
Speaker A:Like, he's always wanting to help, right?
Speaker A:He's always wanting to give.
Speaker A:It's what he does.
Speaker A:Was.
Speaker A:But I mean, even then, he wasn't an expert.
Speaker A:Even he was like, learning from me.
Speaker A:And I'm like, oh, oh, that's humbling, you know, and.
Speaker A:But that's what we do.
Speaker A:We learn.
Speaker A:But no, there was nothing written.
Speaker A:Marcia Montenegro, she was one of the only other people that knew even about people like Swedenborg.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Really smart about it.
Speaker A:And so I had limited resources of people who actually knew what they were talking about.
Speaker A:And then, and then compiling the information was very difficult.
Speaker A:Very difficult.
Speaker A:Because like, imagine walking into a room filled with books, right?
Speaker A:Like your living room, all of it's filled with books.
Speaker A:I'm not talking about just on the walls talking about.
Speaker A:It's piled from top to bottom with books.
Speaker A:Your job is to go through them and gather as much information as you can to generalize the overall umbrella topic of all of these books.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The books are on one topic.
Speaker A:That's how it felt writing this.
Speaker A:And I didn't enjoy it.
Speaker A:I'll be honest.
Speaker A:I did not enjoy that part.
Speaker A:It was overwhelming.
Speaker A:But I'm saying a lot of stuff.
Speaker A:But the reason why.
Speaker A:Here's the reason why.
Speaker A:The reason why I approached the book from that topic is because I love truth, I love facts, and I like putting things in a way where if you're reading it, you had better know this is exactly what they believe.
Speaker A:Because I have a responsibility to.
Speaker A:There's gonna be a lot of people reading this book, watching my videos.
Speaker A:There's a responsibility to steward that in a way where I'm not just writing this book to write a book.
Speaker A:Book, like a cash grab.
Speaker A:That was the last thing on my mind.
Speaker A:I. I didn't.
Speaker A:I felt like I needed to write this book because I had been writing it for like 16 years and it needed to be written because nobody's written on it.
Speaker A:I have a personal Backstory with it.
Speaker A:I have personal experience with it and I was very frustrated when I realized what this was.
Speaker A:And it couldn't be a video.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, yeah, kids, I gotta write a book.
Speaker A:And so there was a responsibility with it to make sure that I am handling this in a way that if somebody were reading it, if a critic were reading it, okay, and they're going across a page and they're like, that's not what they believe.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Well, let's, let's look at this.
Speaker A:Let's see.
Speaker A:Number one, there's three sources that are new thought sources that say this is what you believe.
Speaker A:It's like Mormons, right?
Speaker A:You have to like convert a Mormon to Mormonism first before you can get anywhere.
Speaker A:Because they're like, that's not what we believe.
Speaker A:But it's like, yeah, this is what you're.
Speaker A:This is right here.
Speaker A:I'm looking on your website like, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:It's like there's a denial there sometimes, or maybe they don't know, but I better do my homework because I'm going to look really stupid.
Speaker A:We the church, right?
Speaker A:Like, I'm representing Christ, I'm representing the gospel.
Speaker A:And I want to be fair, I want to be thorough.
Speaker A:I see it as a responsibility to make sure that what I'm doing is thoroughly researched be in order to make sure that that truth is being upheld.
Speaker A:And so that if criticisms arise on what I wrote, it's because they disagree.
Speaker A:Like, I remember there was this one guy.
Speaker A:Oh, I can't remember his name, but he has a whole YouTube channel dedicated to Swedenborg.
Speaker A:And he read the little section that I, I still need to go back and actually watch the video.
Speaker A:I watched a little part of it, it.
Speaker A:But he was saying, oh, no, no, Swedenborg doesn't deny the Trinity.
Speaker A:I'm like, what do you mean by Trinity?
Speaker A:That's the first thing that comes to my mind because I know what Christians believe.
Speaker A:And if you're saying that Swedenborg didn't deny the Trinity, you and I need to define our terms, right?
Speaker A:So that's what the first thing that comes to my mind is, that I've done enough research to know, oh, he doesn't understand what we believe.
Speaker A:For me to say that.
Speaker A:And I just think that, I don't know, it's a long answer, but I think that there's a.
Speaker A:You're gonna look really dumb if you make a video or if you write a book and you haven't done your homework.
Speaker A:And people call you out on it, you better have your receipts.
Speaker A:And I've seen that happen too many times.
Speaker A:And I have seen people make videos about topics that they think they know what they're talking about and they can get slammed, and rightfully so, because they didn't do their homework.
Speaker A:And so I think it's in that spirit of integrity, of responsibility, of stewardship, that I went as hard as I did, but also made it readable.
Speaker B:I really.
Speaker B:I really appreciate that.
Speaker B:I appreciate hearing all that.
Speaker B:I appreciate that answer.
Speaker B:And honestly, like, it came across in reading the book, because I've watched.
Speaker B:I've watched your videos, and I was.
Speaker B:And I start reading the book, and it's so scholarly, but still accessible.
Speaker B:Like, it's not dense.
Speaker B:It's not like reading a theological tome.
Speaker B:But it's very clear very early on the book is going in a hard research, historical direction.
Speaker B:And to compare the voice of the book in a way to your videos or the approach of the work, the book feels completely solid.
Speaker B:Like, there's no room to kind of argue in here because you clearly know your stuff.
Speaker B:And I'm reading it like, this cannot have been easy to write, you know, like, I could feel that.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But in a good way.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker B:In reading it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Thank you for that.
Speaker A:I think part of it is my seminary, because they make you dot your I's and cross your T's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I. I mean, it's a.
Speaker A:It's a richly robust seminary in that regard, and there's a lot expected of you when it comes to writing your papers.
Speaker A:And so that was that, you know, and.
Speaker A:But yeah, it was.
Speaker A:It was very difficult because if you're writing a chapter, like, I have a whole chapter on, like, the Seeker movement, Right.
Speaker A:Or like the Word of Faith movement, I have a chapter about that.
Speaker A:You have people who you can send it to to give you feedback.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:For a critical analysis, which you should do.
Speaker A:We should do that.
Speaker A:We should send out our stuff.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:When we write a book, and it's like, hey, don't be my friend.
Speaker A:Don't be my friend.
Speaker A:Read this with a critical eye.
Speaker A:You know, progressive Christianity.
Speaker A:That's easy.
Speaker A:Send it to Elisa.
Speaker A:Send it to my friend Jason Jimenez, Dr. Robert Bowman, for my Word of Faith chapter.
Speaker A:Some of my seminary professors, you know, and the chapter 10 for the church Growth movement was the hardest.
Speaker A:There.
Speaker A:There is no scholarly research on that.
Speaker A:Where do I go with that?
Speaker A:And that was.
Speaker A:There was a whole thing with that chapter that I had to deal with.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And you Know, make corrections.
Speaker A:And it was tough.
Speaker A:And the Word of Faith chapter still, I'm still learning about this because Dr.
Speaker A:Bowman, he would agree with me in some places because I'm trying to draw that line back from, hey, why does the Word of Faith movement sound so much like new thought?
Speaker A:Oh, because there's, like, historical lines there.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The question is not.
Speaker A:No historian will say that new thought is not in the word of faith movement.
Speaker A:The question is, the big question mark is how did it get there?
Speaker A:So I attempt to answer that, and I go back to E.W.
Speaker A:kenyon.
Speaker A:But Dr.
Speaker A:Bowman, he would probably sharpen my understanding on this.
Speaker A:Even though the book's out, he would say that it's more through people like John G. Lake.
Speaker A:And I think he said Simpson.
Speaker A:I actually interviewed him about this.
Speaker A:I'm like, give me some pushback track.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I think that should be our posture is.
Speaker A:Is grow me, help me learn.
Speaker A:Like, I. Yeah, it's really annoying that my book's out and I can add more to it.
Speaker A:You know, the things that you're saying, I can actually make it sharper with what you're saying.
Speaker A:But teach me learn.
Speaker A:Help me learn from you.
Speaker A:And I think that should be the posture of it.
Speaker A:So that's what's frustrating about it, is that no matter, it's terrifying writing a book, because when you put it out, it's out there forever.
Speaker A:It's not like an Internet post where you can do like, oh, let me just edit this.
Speaker A:No, like, you can't do that.
Speaker A:And so there's just a great deal of responsibility that goes along with it.
Speaker B:And I appreciate the commitment to precision.
Speaker B:One of the things I try and tell people, like, if you're going to come at very substantial movements or individuals or ideas, you have to take one good shot with high precision, clean.
Speaker B:It cannot be sloppy because you will create more trouble than it's worth.
Speaker B:And the commitment to precision is so difficult.
Speaker B:It demands so much to think through precisely little, fine step by fine step.
Speaker B:But once it's done, and perhaps you can answer this, how does it feel to have set out what you achieved to do, to achieve what you set out to do?
Speaker A:I don't know how to answer that.
Speaker A:Part of it's anticlimactic, and part of it is just relief.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because like I said, I think that my intentions for writing the book need to be very clear.
Speaker A:Cause I didn't do this for the wrong reasons.
Speaker A:Let's just put it that way.
Speaker A:But you know what it is?
Speaker A:Okay, My friend Greg.
Speaker A:Greg Again, over here on the wall, nobody can see this, but I have three little pieces of paper.
Speaker A:Cause I'm a 90s kid.
Speaker A:We still use this thing called paper to write notes.
Speaker A:And Greg, I asked him for help on my relativism chapter and oh my.
Speaker A:He took that like it was his job.
Speaker A:Like, we had conversations, he sent me stuff like, oh, that was his thing for a while.
Speaker A:And he sent me this list of writing advice because Greg is one of the sharpest writers I've ever met.
Speaker A:And I printed it out.
Speaker A:And then next to that, I have something I wrote about a quote from William Taft that says, write so that you're right.
Speaker A:So that you.
Speaker A:You Wait, hold on.
Speaker A:Don't write so that you can be understood.
Speaker A:Write so that you can't be misunderstood.
Speaker A:So you can't be misunderstood.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker A:Something like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, I see it every.
Speaker A:I see it every day.
Speaker A:Obviously haven't memorized it yet.
Speaker A:And then my friend Holly Pivk, who's also an author, keep it simple, keep it interesting, right?
Speaker A:So I have that.
Speaker A:But his whole list is right there.
Speaker A:So that should give you some background to how much he's written and how much he knows about this.
Speaker A:Because the guy is just a wordsmith.
Speaker A:He's really good.
Speaker A:But he says this because he doesn't like writing either.
Speaker A:And he says, I don't like writing, I like being done writing.
Speaker A:And I think that's what it is, is that, okay, it's done.
Speaker A:But then you gotta do like marketing, right?
Speaker A:You gotta go and promote your book, which isn't too hard.
Speaker A:That's actually really fun because then you get to talk about it.
Speaker A:And I always joke like, I just did a speaking event and I told everybody it was about new thought, of course.
Speaker A:And I told everybody.
Speaker A:I'm like, ah, my publisher probably doesn't like it when I say this.
Speaker A:I don't really care, but I don't like talking about my book.
Speaker A:But I love talking about the topic, right?
Speaker A:And I think that's.
Speaker A:I think it's that feeling of, okay, I've actually been writing this book not being able to talk about the topic for so long, like over a year, and just kind of seeing how little this is being talked about.
Speaker A:Nobody's talking about new thought, nobody's written about it.
Speaker A:And so to, to them, they're like, oh, this is a great idea, right?
Speaker A:To me, I'm like, I just want to talk about it.
Speaker A:So I think there's a relief from being able to just read all the books, make videos about it, do the interviews.
Speaker A:But it's also slightly anticlimactic because, I don't know, I think that I'm just glad to be done.
Speaker A:But I'm also.
Speaker A:I. I think I. I think that it was within the writing where it's like, oh, finally finished this chapter.
Speaker A:I would, like, reward myself.
Speaker A:I'd go get, like, a pizza and chocolate.
Speaker A:You know, that was my.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Those moments.
Speaker A:So I think, because I had that interspersed in writing when I was totally done, I think I was more afraid than anything than relieved because I'm like, oh, is this gonna land?
Speaker A:Is this gonna be okay?
Speaker A:Like, are people gonna get it?
Speaker A:What's this gonna be like?
Speaker A:Did I make a mistake?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so that's where my mind went, because I had that high standard of, Of, Of.
Speaker A:Of, I guess, the stewardship of what we were talking about before.
Speaker A:And here we are, it'll be a year in January.
Speaker A:And I'm like, okay, yeah.
Speaker A:So I think that that's.
Speaker A:I'm still kind of working my way up there to the.
Speaker A:Oh, how does this feel?
Speaker A:It feels great.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker A:It does feel good.
Speaker A:It feels good talking about it.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I don't think.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I don't think I'll ever write again.
Speaker A:Have you had to hit me?
Speaker B:You know, have you had new thought people or Christians who have been wrapped up in new thought?
Speaker B:Maybe unbeknownst to them, have they come to you and been like, wow, thank you for breaking all that down.
Speaker B:I had no idea.
Speaker B:Or thank you for illuminating ideas that I was carrying that, like, I didn't realize were warping my faith.
Speaker A:Many, many of them.
Speaker A:I think that there's a level of respect I have for the Christian who believes in a lot of new thought beliefs and did what I did right, where they just kind of leaned into it.
Speaker A:And I always say, you know, if there's somebody out there that's read it or maybe they're listening to one of these interviews, that maybe you're mad at me, maybe you don't like this.
Speaker A:Maybe this is making you feel very uncomfortable.
Speaker A:I just want to reach through the camera and just give you a big hug.
Speaker A:I'm not even going to sit here and try to convince you.
Speaker A:It's hard.
Speaker A:It's hard to have your beliefs challenged.
Speaker A:But that's why I think truth should be above all, truth and courage.
Speaker A:If you have courage, you will seek truth.
Speaker A:And that means becoming very uncomfortable and looking at maybe another side that challenges your entire worldview.
Speaker A:You know, like my.
Speaker A:My first love in ministry was Cults, Right.
Speaker A:Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.
Speaker A:I think it was them.
Speaker A:They taught me the price they have to pay to leave that religion is not any small price.
Speaker A:They lose everything, everything.
Speaker A:Their families if they leave their religion.
Speaker A:But they did.
Speaker A:A lot of them did.
Speaker A:And so when we can pivot our beliefs.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's not as earth shattering as leaving a cult.
Speaker A:But speaking of cults, I mean, if you're.
Speaker A:It's easier to keep somebody out of a cult than get them out of a cult, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I think this book is a testament to that, to trying to get Christians to understand what this is, to avoid them going down that path.
Speaker A:But I also think it's a little bit easier for people who might have adopted some of these beliefs.
Speaker A:There might be pride.
Speaker A:Pride might be the biggest issue.
Speaker A:Maybe.
Speaker A:Maybe it's flat out disagreement.
Speaker A:Well, why.
Speaker A:Why do you disagree?
Speaker A:Where did I go wrong?
Speaker A:Tell me what's going on here.
Speaker A:Like, where.
Speaker A:Where am I wrong at?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Where do you think?
Speaker A:You disagree.
Speaker A:And a lot of it devolves into this.
Speaker A:The argument of it's not loving, maybe.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, that's too judgmental for me.
Speaker A:And it's like, oh, man, I've been there.
Speaker A:I have so been there.
Speaker A:And I usually find that there two things that come from that perspective.
Speaker A:And the last chapter I wrote was about a reverend who had this same problem.
Speaker A:I find that there's fear and pain, sometimes paranoia.
Speaker A:Fear, pain and paranoia are usually sometimes at the core of why you are acting that way.
Speaker A:It's not because it's true.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker A:That's not truth doing that to you.
Speaker A:It's one of these three.
Speaker A:Why are you not able to handle the truth about hell, for example?
Speaker A:Why is that?
Speaker A:Why is that hard for you?
Speaker A:Because God is love.
Speaker A:Well, but why if God is love?
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:It's like getting them to think I love handing people back their brains because then they have to actually wrestle with that.
Speaker A:And I hope I put a stone in their shoe, but I'm also gonna, like, hold their hand on the.
Speaker A:On the way.
Speaker A:You know, it's like, I'm gonna love you through it, but I'm not gonna.
Speaker A:I am not going to sugarcoat this for you.
Speaker A:This is what this is.
Speaker A:I will love you through it.
Speaker A:I will give you a hug.
Speaker A:But, yeah, this is true.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, there's a boldness there that we need to have, but yeah, that woman at the end, not to give it away or anything, was a new thought.
Speaker A:Reverend.
Speaker A:And she understood what I was saying.
Speaker A:Everybody I talked to, by the way, I gave the gospel to, I asked questions in a way that I believe that they would understand.
Speaker A:I think that's very wise to do.
Speaker A:If you understand how a Jehovah's Witness might hear the gospel differently, then changing the way you're talking is actually wisdom, right?
Speaker A:So for her, I, For a lot of them, you know, I'd ask them many different questions, but one thing I would talk about or ask about is the serpent's lie in Genesis 3.
Speaker A:You know, the thing that got me, the thing that really got me.
Speaker A:And that's how the conversation got started.
Speaker A:But we were going down the gospel path.
Speaker A:It was a different conversation from all the others that I had.
Speaker A:And it's like she, she looked at me.
Speaker A:It's like she, she knew.
Speaker A:She understood.
Speaker A:She understood exactly what I was saying.
Speaker A:And I asked her point blank, like, would you believe this?
Speaker A:Like, do you believe this?
Speaker A:And she just was so honest with me.
Speaker A:She's like, I won't believe that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it was a adamant.
Speaker A:I am digging my heels in.
Speaker A:I know it's true, but I won't believe it because that means that I have to give up my power.
Speaker A:That means I have to face the pain that forms my beliefs.
Speaker A:And I think that is so hard to get through to.
Speaker A:So the only thing I can do is if somebody's reading this book or if, you know, they are somebody that maybe they're a new thought wherever they are.
Speaker A:The challenge I would put forth is, is that really worth it?
Speaker A:Like, if we're talking about eternity, are you gonna dig your heels in now and risk being with the God who created you?
Speaker A:That, that, that peace that you are craving, that lie, that happy little lie that you are living in is going to continue to always be a lie and will always fall short.
Speaker A:It will always leave you empty.
Speaker A:So that's my point, though.
Speaker A:It's like leaning into that truth.
Speaker A:Truth and knowing who God truly is.
Speaker A:That's where you're going to find your freedom from that core of that paranoia, pain and fear.
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker B:Can you walk the listeners?
Speaker B:Certainly I have many of my own stories of this.
Speaker B:Can you walk the listeners through a moment where you might have encountered that within yourself, where it's like, oh, wow, this is bumping up against pride.
Speaker B:This is bumping up against fear.
Speaker B:But my commitment to courageous pursuit of truth is calling me through it.
Speaker B:Can you, can you walk us through one of those moments, baby?
Speaker A:Oh, there's a lot of those.
Speaker A:There's A lot of those.
Speaker A:I mean, the first one, of course, that comes to mind is the initial story I told you about the J. Dubs coming to my door and me just being a stubborn, real stubborn, just like, oh, I don't wanna.
Speaker A:How can you say something bad about Oprah?
Speaker A:She's amazing, you know, and, you know, just kind of digging my heels in.
Speaker A:And then it was just a process after that of learning that I was wrong a lot.
Speaker A:And I think that's where I just have this position of I've been wrong so long, so many times that I just kind of shut up and listen sometimes, you know, Unless I know what I'm talking about.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We stay in our lane.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:We stay in our lane, and you fact check it.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You put it in there.
Speaker A:But there's been just.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh, lots of little micro moments of that.
Speaker A:So many of them.
Speaker A:And I got on YouTube maybe five years ago, and again, it's.
Speaker A:It's fun, but it's also terrifying because, again, there's a.
Speaker A:There's a responsibility for that.
Speaker A:People listen to you and they believe you and they trust you.
Speaker A:And so if there's a mistake made, it's like, ugh, I have to make a video apologizing, I got something wrong.
Speaker A:Or, you know, I made a post about this, and I got to make this right.
Speaker A:I got to do this.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:You know, that's why I actually interviewed Dr.
Speaker A:Bowman.
Speaker A:That was terrible.
Speaker A:It wasn't actually.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker A:Not as terrible as this other incident I'm going to tell you about.
Speaker A:But it was.
Speaker A:I had him read the chapter.
Speaker A:He gave me his feedback, I made the changes, and then he read it again, and he's like, yeah, you got so many things right.
Speaker A:This I would disagree with you on.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, okay, let's get you on my channel.
Speaker A:And then you can call me out on it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:To hash this out for the people who've read the book.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It wasn't fun to do, but it needed to be done.
Speaker A:It's very uncomfortable when people might make an accusation.
Speaker A:And everybody's always making an accusation, especially when you're online.
Speaker A:So you have to be very mindful.
Speaker A:You have to surround yourself with people who feel comfortable telling you that you messed up.
Speaker A:You have to.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:Especially if you're online.
Speaker A:I'll name one right now who's so ready to be that person.
Speaker A:There's so many of them.
Speaker A:I have Elisa, Natasha.
Speaker A:But Alan.
Speaker A:Alan Parr.
Speaker A:He a few times has messaged me, and he's like, sister, you might want to, you know, reconsider this, blah, blah, blah, blah, or whatever it is.
Speaker A:And he gives really good reasons, like good points why it's that way or oh, like that actually sounded really prideful or whatever it is.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, oh, I think you're right.
Speaker A:My bad.
Speaker A:Like, you're right.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:Let me go correct that.
Speaker A:And it hurts.
Speaker A:It hurts.
Speaker A:But you know, the worst one was the chapter 10 situation.
Speaker A:Okay, so the chapter 10 about the seeker sensitive movement, the model.
Speaker A:A lot of people don't realize that the origin.
Speaker A:One of them is Robert Schuller, who's a new thought pastor, who basically heralded the new thought or the, the seeker sensitive model.
Speaker A:And I'm like, why is nobody talking about this?
Speaker A:This is like an unbiblical origin.
Speaker A:But we also need to have a very fair conversation about.
Speaker A:We can't just cheap shot the whole movement.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:There was nuance there that was needed.
Speaker A:That was tough because my first draft of that chapter, the book was ready to go, man.
Speaker A:It was ready to go.
Speaker A:It was, it was.
Speaker A:Everything was ready.
Speaker A:But then I got late feedback, short story, late feedback from somebody who's pro seeker.
Speaker A:And I am.
Speaker A:I respect them deeply.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And though we would disagree with the harm.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like we would disagree with certain elements of it, it was very difficult to go through that, that process.
Speaker A:I'm leaving out a lot right now, but let me just say, whenever you're.
Speaker A:You think you're done with your book and all of a sudden your editor's giving you a call at 9 o' clock at night saying, we have a problem.
Speaker A:We might need to do this and that and this with this feedback that we've gotten.
Speaker A:And by the way, my editor was phenomenal.
Speaker A:He was so good.
Speaker A:He was exactly what I needed.
Speaker A:He was so supportive and so, so just so good in that.
Speaker A:But that was rough because I'm like, what is the right thing to do?
Speaker A:I have like 72 hours to figure this out because they need it right away.
Speaker A:And so there's an element there of, oh, gosh, there's just so many issues, like so many times, but there's an element there of growth in each one of those moments, knowing when to stand firm, when to kind of like take a step back and think, oh, am I, am I in wrong here?
Speaker A:I need to figure this out instead of just digging your heels in every single time unless you know for a fact I can back this up.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so I think we need to know when we need to bend when we need to, you know, take correction and be wise in that if your.
Speaker B:Goal is, you know, to promote truth and to stand on truth and that feedback comes in and it rattles you on the foundation, like, yeah, I should probably do something about that.
Speaker B:Otherwise you're undermining your own goal.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And here I am.
Speaker A:I mean, dude, I'm into apologetics.
Speaker A:I love hearing from people that disagree with me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it doesn't mean I consider every disagreement.
Speaker A:This one was different though, because I'm, I'm, I'm reading what, you know, he's putting forth and I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker A:I think that, I think he has a good point here.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I need to reconsider that.
Speaker A:That this I'm not budging on.
Speaker A:I think he's wrong here.
Speaker A:He's kind of projecting.
Speaker A:I don't agree.
Speaker A:Or whatever it is.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Whatever that might be.
Speaker A:But there was deep respect, deep love for each other the whole time.
Speaker A:And it was difficult, though.
Speaker A:That was difficult.
Speaker A:And I think growth just hurts.
Speaker A:Growth hurts.
Speaker A:And so, yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that wounds from a friend can be trusted.
Speaker A:And I don't, I don't think that it was trying anything else, but that was the hardest.
Speaker A:That was the hardest chapter to even get peer reviewed.
Speaker A:So the fact that there was somebody even giving me insight, I kind of saw as, as God, you know, in his providence putting somebody in that was going to give me a fresh eyes from a perspective that I hadn't yet gotten.
Speaker A:And honestly, it made the chapter a lot better.
Speaker A:And I got to expand on it in a three hour deep dive on Robert Schuller on my channel.
Speaker A:And it was just, in hindsight, definitely the right thing to do.
Speaker A:Definitely made that chapter so much stronger.
Speaker A:And I think, I think when people read it, they are going to really grab it and hear it and understand it because I got that feedback.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:As a reader of the book who didn't know much about it going in besides that it was about the new thought.
Speaker B:I was wondering, as I'm reading this book, where is this going to land ultimately?
Speaker B:Because I know the climax of the book or the back pages of the book is where a lot of really good stuff tends to be or should.
Speaker B:And so as I'm reading it and I discover that it starts going towards the seeker sensitive movement.
Speaker B:It's like, I really like that that was the target kind of there at the end.
Speaker B:Maybe target's not the right word, but it was like it was building to make that case.
Speaker B:And I felt that chapter And I know very little about the seeker sensitive movement.
Speaker B:So I don't have a background in evangelicalism.
Speaker B:I'm aware of it and I understand the ideas behind it and certainly I've experienced the consequences of it as many have.
Speaker B:But I felt that that chapter landed so clean and it really needed to because as you point out in the book, there are so many people who are faithful believers who came in as a result of the seeker sensitive movement.
Speaker B:Maybe they're in seeker sensitive churches.
Speaker B:And you can't paint the entire thing with one brush like you have.
Speaker B:You have to land it clean.
Speaker A:Yeah, man.
Speaker A:Thank you, thank you.
Speaker A:I appreciate that.
Speaker A:That's, that's the thing is like whenever you're working on a project and you're this close to it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And when you put it out there and people give you feedback, you're like, oh, this did land okay.
Speaker A:That was actually, it's interesting that you had that experience that it kind of led up, up and ended with the seeker, the, the seeker chapter.
Speaker A:Because you're right, that was, that was actually unintentional.
Speaker A:But I ended purposely on that chapter for a different reason because it was the one that was not as black and white as the rest.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:And so I'm like, okay, if, if we have, if people understand who Norman Vincent Beale is, if they understand what this is, if they understand what that is, they might understand my, my argument here and why this is an issue, but also why doesn't mean we, we have to throw it all out the door.
Speaker A:And the nuance was tough.
Speaker A:Like my, my, my chapter on the self help movement, there was no real nuance needed for like the progressive chapter, for example.
Speaker A:But self help, I mean, some of it's good.
Speaker A:There are some Christian self help books, right.
Speaker A:Like, we don't need to be over here.
Speaker A:Affirmations, right.
Speaker A:Like affirmations or like new thought prayers and you know, but there's people who, it might be semantics.
Speaker A:There's using affirmations to build somebody up or something.
Speaker A:But it's not really affirmations.
Speaker A:Like, it's more like encouragement and here's the difference.
Speaker A:And you know, positive thinking, you can't, oh, you can't demonize just thinking positive.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:There are actual good studies, right.
Speaker A:About the fact that if you change the way you're thinking, like I'm a 15 year old, right.
Speaker A:They, they err on the side of just being this Eeyore with a cloud above their head.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They're just, they're, they're kind of Moody.
Speaker A:And so if there was a way for her to be like, okay, you're having a negative thought right now and it's going downhill.
Speaker A:Let's pull that back.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, what are some.
Speaker A:What are some ways to do that that are practical, that are biblical, aligned with reality, aligned with truth?
Speaker A:And yeah, the nuance was definitely needed.
Speaker A:So that's interesting that that was your perspective, though, and I'm glad for that.
Speaker B:Well, I think the.
Speaker B:The way that it was communicated was even in the process of reading the book, I was like, okay, it's one thing to talk about new thought as this movement that's out there in the world that is.
Speaker B:That is and should be a target of evangelism.
Speaker B:It entirely to say, this is your personal experience coming out of that.
Speaker B:Those are two.
Speaker B:A couple different.
Speaker B:Those are a couple different books right there.
Speaker B:But at the end, it was like, how is this relevant to Christians today, even who don't share new thought beliefs that they're aware of or at all?
Speaker B:Like, how does this impact the church today right now in a big way?
Speaker B:And so it landed right there.
Speaker B:And it's like, as you'd built up this case very carefully over the preceding chapters, so you'd establish the momentum, you'd establish the credibility, you know, when you'd establish, like, this is the case.
Speaker B:And now, bang, here we are in the center of evangelicalism in many ways, and it had to land there.
Speaker B:It's like, oh, this is a bigger deal than I realized because it involves so many churches across the country and so many believers.
Speaker B:It made it very relevant in a powerful way.
Speaker A:And even then, there was more that I could have said.
Speaker A:I think that my best friend, she read it and she's like, my only complaint is that it's not.
Speaker A:Not longer, you know, and I'm like, tell me about it.
Speaker A:It's the.
Speaker A:The books in the room story.
Speaker A:I was telling you before.
Speaker A:There's so much more to know.
Speaker A:The transcendental movement.
Speaker A:Yeah, this whole living your truth stuff, I mean, chapter six is a identity crisis.
Speaker A:I'm like, that's just what's going on now.
Speaker A:Wait, wait.
Speaker A:Just wait.
Speaker A:The devil's got something else up, up a sleeve.
Speaker A:Gender is going to be one thing, but you know what I mean?
Speaker A:It's like who you are on the inside is truly who you are.
Speaker A:All this stuff.
Speaker A:Stuff.
Speaker A:I mean, there's just so many things, so many more books I. I could have bored people with or that I could have quoted.
Speaker A:And it's just so.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's so much More to it.
Speaker A:But I think that this is sufficient for the average Lee person to understand what this is, why it is, where it is, how it's affecting them.
Speaker A:It's not going anywhere.
Speaker A:Has a gnostic vein to it.
Speaker A:What is Gnosticism?
Speaker A:You know, it's like, it's still here.
Speaker A:I. I want to make it a mainstream work.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's like.
Speaker B:And you planted the book squarely down in the middle of a wide open field and said, here, you can build on this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm like, what?
Speaker A:I was shocked when.
Speaker A:I'm like, why?
Speaker A:How has nobody talked about this?
Speaker A:But I think that shows the deception to it is that it's.
Speaker A:It's kind of hidden.
Speaker A:And so I think that it was right for the picking.
Speaker A:I think that if.
Speaker A:If I never.
Speaker A:If say I did.
Speaker A:I said, tomorrow I'm not doing YouTube anymore.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm taking a break from ministry.
Speaker A:And definitely I would be satisfied that this book would.
Speaker A:Would be carried by other people much smarter than me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That they'll expand on this topic.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:Okay, I gave you something that you guys can start with.
Speaker A:Pick it apart, I don't care, but just expand on it.
Speaker A:That's kind of my hope for it, you know?
Speaker B:Yep, yep.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's what I was saying to my wife as I was reading it.
Speaker B:Like, I was like, this is not.
Speaker B:This is not the book that I expected this to be, but it's clear that you were trying to do something.
Speaker B:I. I think you succeeded it.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:And I really do mean that.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I appreciate that.
Speaker A:We'll have to have you on my channel, though, because I want to hear more about your story and your background and what's going on over here with Will Spencer, because it's very interesting in this conversation.
Speaker A:I know that your background is in New Age, but I didn't know how deep that rabbit hole went, my friends.
Speaker A:I mean, look at your dads.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:It goes.
Speaker B:It goes pretty deep.
Speaker B:It goes pretty deep.
Speaker B:I've got.
Speaker B:I've got stories, Hindu festivals, Buddhist meditation on mountaintops, ayahuasca.
Speaker B:Like you.
Speaker B:I can go there.
Speaker A:You are the epitome of Jesus being the end game.
Speaker A:It's like we go and we look around for everything except him, but we always land right on him.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:It's like, oh, okay, I get it now.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I like to think.
Speaker B:I like to think that I'm the epitome of having to make all the mistakes in the book.
Speaker B:First before getting the right answer.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it.
Speaker A:I like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's true.
Speaker B:It's true.
Speaker B:Well, Melissa, thank you so much for.
Speaker B:For your time.
Speaker B:And I really just have one more question just about the book.
Speaker B:If this book could accomplish.
Speaker B:Maybe you've already answered it, but if this book could accomplish one thing as a result of finishing it, completing it, launching it out there into the world, what would you like to see this book accomplish?
Speaker A:I want it to give Christians.
Speaker A:I wanted to give Christians an idea of what this is so they could be more bold and courageous with their faith.
Speaker A:But more than anything, I want people to understand the Jesus of scripture, right?
Speaker A:Not the Jesus of J. Dubs, not the Jesus that we make up in our heart, not the progressive Jesus.
Speaker A:I want them to understand the gospel clearly and understand why the Christian message, the gospel message is good and true.
Speaker A:And that is exactly what they've been looking for.
Speaker A:In fact, my.
Speaker A:I dedicated the book.
Speaker A:You'll people understand it as they read, because a new thought, the idea is that you're already whole.
Speaker A:You just have to recognize it.
Speaker A:You already have the Christ consciousness within.
Speaker A:You just have to recognize it.
Speaker A:You are whole.
Speaker A:And so there was this lie, even as a Christian, right?
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, everybody's whole.
Speaker A:They just gotta know, no, no, no.
Speaker A:There's only one person who can make you whole.
Speaker A:Nothing by the blood, right?
Speaker A:Only by the blood of Jesus.
Speaker A:And I think that is the driving message I want to get through to people is everything that you've been looking for is in him.
Speaker B:Praise God.
Speaker B:Answer the question for me about the.
Speaker B:About the dedication as well.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Well, this has been a beautiful conversation about the origins of the book and the worldview that it encapsulates and your journey and so much more.
Speaker B:Where would you like to send people to find out more about what you do and find out more about the book?
Speaker A:Yeah, I have a website.
Speaker A:My name.
Speaker A:If you just put in my name, people will find me.
Speaker A:And then my YouTube channel.
Speaker A:Melissa Doherty again, just look for my name.
Speaker A:Instagram, Facebook.
Speaker A:I think I'm an ex.
Speaker A:I don't really check X a lot, but I post and I kind of dip and dash, right?
Speaker A:I post and dash on.
Speaker A:On.
Speaker A:On X.
Speaker A:Because it's a cesspool over there.
Speaker A:But yeah, the major platforms, you'll find me.
Speaker B:Wonderful.
Speaker A:Oh, and then the book is wherever you buy books, wherever you go.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Excellent.
Speaker B:Well, thank you so much, Melissa.
Speaker B:And from your lips to God's ears.
Speaker B:May the book accomplish your goals.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I appreciate it.
