Episode 225
MIKE GENDRON - Responding to Rome: Embracing the Bible's Authority Over Religious Doctrine
Mike Gendron joins the podcast to discuss the critical issue of salvation and the teachings of the Catholic Church. He shares his journey from being a devout Catholic to becoming a biblical apologist, emphasizing the stark contrast between Catholic doctrine and scriptural truths regarding salvation.
Gendron argues that many evangelicals are leaving their faith for Catholicism, often due to misunderstandings of scripture and the allure of tradition. Through his extensive experience, he aims to equip listeners with the knowledge to respond biblically to the growing influence of Catholicism in society.
Ultimately, he encourages a return to the authority of Scripture as the foundation for understanding faith and salvation.
Takeaways:
- Mike Gendron emphasizes the importance of relying solely on Scripture for understanding salvation, contrasting it with Catholic teachings that include additional requirements.
- The episode discusses the alarming trend of evangelical Protestants converting to Catholicism, often due to dissatisfaction with modern Protestant practices.
- Gendron shares personal experiences that led him to abandon Catholicism, focusing on the transformative power of the Gospel as revealed in the Bible.
- The dialogue stresses that true assurance of salvation is found in faith alone in Christ, rather than in religious rituals or sacraments that Catholicism promotes.
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Foreign.
Speaker B:Hello, my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the Will Spencer Podcast.
Speaker B:This is a weekly show featuring in depth conversations with authors, leaders and influencers who help us understand our changing world.
Speaker B:New episodes release every Friday.
Speaker B:Forgive my voice as I'm a bit under the weather this week, but I'm pleased to share with you the audio from my recent livestream with Mike Gendron.
Speaker B:Mike is a world traveled apologist to Catholics on behalf of the Biblical faith.
Speaker B:As his website reads quote Mike Gendron was a strong defender of his Catholic faith for over 35 years.
Speaker B: In: Speaker B:His Catholic teaching opposed the Bible on the doctrines of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.
Speaker B:During Mike's spiritual journey, he realized the Bible as the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God, must become his supreme authority in all matters of faith.
Speaker B:His crisis of faith ended when he repented of the Catholic teachings that opposed the Bible and trusted Christ alone as his all sufficient Savior.
Speaker B:End quote.
Speaker B:While I never seriously considered Catholicism myself, I did explore its questions.
Speaker B:Debates from James White, sermons from John MacArthur and R.C.
Speaker B:sproul, plus Mike's videos helped me work through a lot of the foundational questions and challenges that I thought the Roman doctrine answered insufficiently.
Speaker B:Mike is an uncompromising evangelist, as you'll hear, and that makes him unpopular.
Speaker B:In fact, a friend told me that at a speaking appearance years ago, Mike Mike was receiving death threats.
Speaker B:But it's my hope that Mike's mastery of Scripture and his decades of faithful service will help equip you to respond biblically to the aggressive movement of Rome into the public square.
Speaker B:And it's my intention that, Lord willing, this be just one of the many conversations to come on the subject.
Speaker B:If you enjoy the Will Spencer podcast, thank you.
Speaker B:Don't forget to like this episode, subscribe and share with friends.
Speaker B:Plus leave five star ratings and reviews on Apple and Spotify.
Speaker B:To go deeper, subscribe to my substack or click Buy Me a Coffee in the show Notes.
Speaker B:And if you're interested in some additional fireworks, check out the link to my new Evolution video which I'll post below.
Speaker B:A liberal Atheist channel with 300,000 subscribers did a takedown video of me and so my YouTube comments have been lit up.
Speaker B:This is while my X comments were lit up by Catholics.
Speaker B:Fun times.
Speaker B:And please welcome this week's guests on the podcast from Proclaiming the Gospel.
Speaker B:Mike Gendron.
Speaker C:Mike Gendron from Proclaiming the Gospel, thanks so much for joining me on this live stream for the Will Spencer podcast.
Speaker A:Well, thanks for the privilege, Will.
Speaker C:Well, the privilege is mine, sir.
Speaker C:Your, your work has been a great blessing to me, as I know it has been for so many people.
Speaker C:And the, the conversation that's happening right now is Rome has made a very big, strong push back into the public square through social media.
Speaker C:And that's been increasing over the past year or so, I would say.
Speaker C:And so I think it's important to arm Protestants with some responses to standard Catholic positions and maybe also preach the gospel to some, some Roman Catholics as well.
Speaker A:Yeah, they have really made an inroads and a lot of it, I think, is through social media.
Speaker A:But another factor is many evangelical Protestants are becoming apostate to join the apostate religion of Roman Catholicism.
Speaker A:And what's amazing, Will, is that they become the teaching authority in the Catholic Church.
Speaker A:The priests have vacated that job and they're pretty much giving it to the former Protestants that know the scripture very well.
Speaker C:Say more about that.
Speaker A: ll, I think it all started in: Speaker A:And the signers of that accord on the evangelical side dare to say that Catholics and evangelicals share a common faith in the gospel.
Speaker A:And that's the furthest thing from the truth, because the Roman Catholic gospel, the plan of salvation in the Catholic Church, is another gospel.
Speaker A:And those that teach it have distorted the gospel and therefore they're under divine condemnation, as we see in Galatians 1, 6 9.
Speaker A:And so there cannot be any unity between Catholics and evangelicals because we believe a different gospel.
Speaker C:So, so you're.
Speaker C:So the evangelicals who are leaving Protestantism are coming into Roman Catholicism and they're bringing their scriptural knowledge to advocate on behalf of the, on behalf of Rome.
Speaker C: And that began in: Speaker A:Well, that was the catalyst.
Speaker A:And I think when you look at, we've been doing this ministry for 34 years, and every time I hear of an evangelical or a Protestant leaving to join the Catholic Church, it is never, ever because of Scripture.
Speaker A:I hope your audience recognizes that.
Speaker A:They do not leave because Scripture pointed them to the Catholic Church.
Speaker A:It's the early church fathers, it's the Eucharist.
Speaker A:They believe that that's necessary for salvation.
Speaker A:It's also the formality of Roman Catholic worship.
Speaker A:Many of our Protestant churches have invited the world in and it's become more of a country club atmosphere.
Speaker A:And so a Lot of people are turned off to that and are drawn to the formality of the Catholic Church.
Speaker A:So we're seeing a mass exodus to the Catholic Church.
Speaker A: the false gospel now for over: Speaker A:And that gospel is a gospel that those who preach it are under divine condemnation.
Speaker A:We can't make that any clearer, Will.
Speaker A:And I hope that's the focal point of what we talk about because the Catholic Church has added requirements.
Speaker A:And you know, the Judaizers came into town, they believed in the Lord Jesus, they believed in his death, burial and resurrection.
Speaker A:But they said if you're a Gentile, you not only need to believe, but you also need to be circumcised.
Speaker A:You need to come under the Jewish law.
Speaker A:And, and so Paul drove a stake in the ground because the purity of the Gospel was at stake.
Speaker A:He said, even if I or an angel from heaven should come and preach another gospel, let them be anathema.
Speaker A:And that word is to be accursed.
Speaker A:And Jesus described what the word accursed means.
Speaker A:It means to be turned into the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and the fallen angels.
Speaker A:So it's a serious issue to distort the gospel.
Speaker A:And the Roman Catholic clergy are the modern day Judaizers because they believe in the life, death, burial and resurrection of Christ, but they've added requirements to the gospel.
Speaker C:One of the things that I've observed from my world travels before I became a Christian is when you start putting tradition to a parallel or even greater degree than scriptures themselves, you tend to get the same results, whether it be in Hinduism or Islam.
Speaker C:And that can be a very difficult thing because you've obliterated objective standards that people are accountable to.
Speaker C:You build up this giant body that everyone suddenly needs a special priest class to interpret for them.
Speaker C:This is a very common human practice.
Speaker A:It really is.
Speaker A:We know that the supreme authority for knowing truth is the infallible, inerrant, inspired word of God.
Speaker A:That is the only infallible source for truth our Lord has left us with.
Speaker A:And we use it to test every man's teaching and every religious tradition.
Speaker A:If it conforms to scripture, we embrace it and believe it.
Speaker A:If it goes against Scripture, we reject it.
Speaker A:And so praise God that he left us his inspired word that we can use to test everything.
Speaker C:And I think that that's what makes the Protestant faith so unique, is there is that actual consistent standard that is open and free and available to everybody.
Speaker C:Bibles are free.
Speaker C:They're basically free these days, there's probably more Bibles in print than any other book.
Speaker C:And so there's no excuse for not having one.
Speaker C:But then also there's no hidden knowledge.
Speaker C:You, you can just read it.
Speaker C:You can just read it.
Speaker C:And if you have questions about one section, you learn to read the other section and it points you to where you need to go.
Speaker C:There's no, like, well, you need to have mastered this giant body of tradition to really understand what's in there.
Speaker C:It's like, no, you, you can.
Speaker C:God left us a book and you, you can just read it and will.
Speaker A:You probably know that according to the Roman Catholic Catechism, their bishops are the only authentic interpreters of God's word.
Speaker A:So we don't have the right to interpret the word of God.
Speaker A:We have to go back to Roman Catholic bishops in order to understand what the Bible really means.
Speaker C:So maybe we can talk for a second about the Church Fathers, because I agree with you when I've seen people leave the Protestant faith.
Speaker C:Now, surely there is a lot going on that is, that is wrong in Protestantism today, right?
Speaker C:Many, many in many different dimensions.
Speaker C:No one's denying that.
Speaker C:But the departure, again, as you said, is not because of Scripture, it's for some other reason.
Speaker C:And the appeal that I always see is made to the Church fathers that's the most, including to Eastern Orthodoxy as well.
Speaker C:Well, the Church fathers.
Speaker C:Well, the Church fathers like.
Speaker C:Well, I got.
Speaker C:There's this book called Acts, and I think that there are some Church Fathers in there.
Speaker C:But what are some of the compelling, you know, arguments for the Church Fathers from the perspective of Rome and perhaps also Eastern Orthodoxy?
Speaker A:The compelling argument for Roman Catholics is that they cannot prove their point in Scripture alone, so they have to look at the early Church fathers and you really gain nothing because you find early Church fathers on the both sides of every issue.
Speaker A:And when Roman Catholics want me to read the early Church Fathers, my response is, how do I know that they're not the very people Paul warned us about when he stood before the Ephesian elders and he said, even from your own number, men are going to rise in order to distort the truth and lead men astray.
Speaker A:So we need to build our theology not on the uninspired words of men, but on the inspired word of God.
Speaker A:And so to look to the Church fathers and build your theology there is completely wrong.
Speaker A:We need to build it on the Acts of the Apostles.
Speaker A:That's the history book of the first century church.
Speaker A:And as you mentioned, early Church fathers are in the Book of Acts.
Speaker A:Let's read them because they're inspired.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:It seems, I don't remember where I read this, but that Christianity is historical events and people attempting to understand what those historical events meant.
Speaker C:That's the story of the faith.
Speaker C:This happened.
Speaker C:What now does it mean?
Speaker C:And it seems like that's what the entire New Testament is about.
Speaker C:After the Gospels, you have the writings of the people who were there, the eyewitnesses, plus Paul.
Speaker C:And that seems that that should be enough as opposed to the games of telephone that began passing down through the generations.
Speaker A:So true.
Speaker A:And while we're on this issue, this really isn't a discussion between Protestants and Catholics.
Speaker A:It's a discussion between how does the Roman Catholic Church line up through the lens of Scripture?
Speaker A:It's the contrast between the inspired word of God and the teachings of the Roman Catholic religion.
Speaker A:And I know individual Catholics don't always adhere to the official teachings of their church, the catechism.
Speaker A:But whenever I teach on the differences, I'm using the word of God against the Roman Catholic Catechism just to show the errors that have crept into the Catholic Church because they departed from the authority of scripture in the 4th century and they've been following pagan traditions ever since then.
Speaker C:So let's.
Speaker C:Let's go back to the start.
Speaker C:Let's go back to your.
Speaker C:Your conversion, your stories.
Speaker C:For those who are watching or might be listening, who've maybe seen some of your videos on YouTube or familiar with the names, let's go back to the very beginning, when you.
Speaker C:When you left the.
Speaker C:Well, let's start with your upbringing, your time in the church, and then how you left.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, well, I was a very devout Roman Catholic, and I came out of a devout Catholic family.
Speaker A:My uncle was a Roman Catholic priest, my aunt was a nun, and I was an altar boy for seven years.
Speaker A:I taught high school Catholic Christian doctrine.
Speaker A:So I was very involved in my religion.
Speaker A:And ultimately I look back and I was trusting my religion to get to heaven.
Speaker A:The Catholic Church offers other mediators between God and man.
Speaker A:And that would be not only the sinlessness of Mary.
Speaker A:She's said to be a co mediatrix of all grace.
Speaker A:But then Catholics are also utterly dependent upon their priests to dispense salvation through the sacrament.
Speaker A:So I didn't really have a relationship with Jesus.
Speaker A:I had a religion.
Speaker A:I had a zeal, but it wasn't based on knowledge.
Speaker A:I was sincere, but I was sincerely wrong because I didn't know the scriptures.
Speaker A:And the very nature of deception is that people never know they're deceived until they're confronted with the truth.
Speaker A:And so when I began reading and studying the Bible in my mid-30s, I had a crisis of faith.
Speaker A:Because what I was reading about the plan of salvation in the Bible was diametrically opposed to what I had been taught as a Catholic.
Speaker A:And so this crisis of faith led me to should I trust Christ and his Word for my eternal destiny or the teachings and traditions of my religion?
Speaker A:It was impossible to believe both.
Speaker A:And I believe that's when God gave me eyes to see the light of the Gospel and the glory of Christ.
Speaker A:And I repented of the false way that I had been clinging to and believed the true gospel of Christ.
Speaker A:And that literally turned my life upside down.
Speaker A:I left the Catholic Church.
Speaker A:I was in a Bible study every morning of the week before I went to work.
Speaker A:And that wasn't enough.
Speaker A:So I ended up leaving my corporate career to go to Dallas Theological Seminary.
Speaker A:I just wanted to purge my mind of all the errors that I've been taught as a Catholic and fill it with the truth of God's word.
Speaker A:And so our last semester there, we were introduced to a video by former priests and nuns, and they were showing the true Gospel versus the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Speaker A:And I brought that home to my wife.
Speaker A:We looked at it together, and we said, we have to share this with every Catholic we know.
Speaker A:So for the next three months, that's all we did every Tuesday night, invited Catholics over to watch the video.
Speaker A:And not every Catholic responded favorably.
Speaker A:Many of them stormed out of our house and never to be seen again.
Speaker A:But there were 17 of them that replaced their religion for relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:And what do you do?
Speaker A:Do with 17 new babies in Christ?
Speaker A:You invite them back over on Wednesday night to help them grow in the truth of God's word.
Speaker A:We made disciples of them, which is what the Great Commission is all about.
Speaker A:It's not go and make decisions, but go and make disciples, teaching them to observe everything Christ has commanded.
Speaker A:So that was the genesis of the ministry that we have today.
Speaker A:For 34 years now, the Lord has taken us around the world several times, and we go into churches and seminaries and conferences and we teach the body of Christ how to be effective witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ and point out the errors so that Catholics can repent and believe the true gospel.
Speaker C:Can you take us back to one of those early moments when you started reading your Bible and you started seeing where maybe some of the pieces didn't fit?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Ephesians 2, 8, 9.
Speaker A:And Titus 3:5 really impacted me because I was doing everything I could to save myself.
Speaker A:And so when I read Ephesians 2:8:9, for by grace you have been saved through faith, it's not of yourselves, it's the gift of God, not of works, so that no man may boast.
Speaker A:And then I read in Titus 3:5, he saved us from not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
Speaker A:And so those verses really impacted me.
Speaker A:Another one was 2 Corinthians 5:21 where I read that Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for me so that I could become the righteousness of God in him.
Speaker A:And I quickly realized that was the greatest exchange any condemned sinner on death row could ever experience.
Speaker A:By faith.
Speaker A:Christ takes all of my sin, all of my guilt, all of my punishment, and what does he give me in return?
Speaker A:His perfect righteousness.
Speaker A:And I didn't realize as a Catholic that there's two things that keep anyone out of heaven.
Speaker A:Number one, they have an eternal sin debt that we could never pay off because we're finite men.
Speaker A:It took the eternal Son of God to come down and get cancel the eternal sin debt.
Speaker A:But then there's another thing we need, and that's perfect righteousness.
Speaker A:And we could never obtain that or attain that.
Speaker A:But Christ gives it as a gift, as we see in Romans 5:17, to those who put their faith in him.
Speaker A:So through faith alone, in Christ alone, my sin debt has been canceled and I have the perfect righteousness of Christ.
Speaker A:Which is why every born again believer has the assurance of eternal life, because it's based on everything Christ has done and not on what we must do.
Speaker A:I was trusting what I must do to get to heaven as a Catholic now I put all my faith in Christ alone.
Speaker A:If there's any Catholic listening to this, I would pray that you do the same thing.
Speaker A:Repent of your dead works, they cannot save you and put all your faith in Christ and will.
Speaker A:I think it's important too that we recognize that once we are new creatures in Christ, once we're born again, then we do the works that God has prepared for us to walk in.
Speaker A:And our motivation is different.
Speaker A:We don't do good works in order to be saved, but because we've already been saved and our motivation is to do good works out of love and gratitude for our Lord Jesus going to the cross on our behalf.
Speaker C:I think that's a very powerful point, particularly around being born again.
Speaker C:Certainly I was in the new age for 20 years.
Speaker C:I was a pagan and I remember the guy that I was.
Speaker C:And I'm not that guy anymore.
Speaker C:In fact, I feel like I have another man's memories.
Speaker C:And in that there's no doubt within myself about the shift and how crucial it is to be born again and, and not to trust in my works for that to tr.
Speaker C:To trust only in Christ and only in His Word to help carry me through.
Speaker C:Because if I'm going to trust in my own works, I live with myself every day.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I know that's probably not going to work so great.
Speaker C:So when you, when you first encountered those, some of those texts, those two texts, I think was Ephesians and, and Titus that you mentioned, what did you, what did you really struggle with letting go of?
Speaker C:Like, so you're confronted with the Word, it hits you like a bolt of lightning, and you're looking like, wow, this is my entire upbringing.
Speaker C:Altar boy, family in the church.
Speaker C:Like, what were some of the things that you were.
Speaker C:That were really the most difficult for, for you to work through?
Speaker A:Well, giving up the sacraments and also recognizing that Jesus finished the work of redemption on the cross and then he entered into heaven.
Speaker A:We see that in Hebrews chapter nine.
Speaker A:But the Catholic Church denies that Jesus finished the work.
Speaker A:They continue it on an altar.
Speaker A:And so as I read Hebrews 10, I saw that Jesus offered himself once for all sin, for all time, and there are no more offerings for sin.
Speaker A:I realized the Roman Catholic Mass was deceiving people.
Speaker A:We would gather around the altar as a propitiatory sacrifice so that our sins would be forgiven that we committed in the previous week.
Speaker A:When I realized that all my sins were nailed to the cross 2,000 years ago and there's no more sacrifices for sin, this was freedom.
Speaker A:There was no need for Roman Catholic priests.
Speaker A:In fact, one of the beautiful miracles that took place at Calvary's cross when Jesus gave up his spirit, the veil separating the holy of holies from sinful man and, and Almighty God was torn open so that now through faith in the shed blood of Jesus, we have direct access to the Father through the Son, the perfect high priest.
Speaker A:Jesus offered himself the perfect sacrifice to a perfect God who demands perfection.
Speaker A:And then he cried out in victory, it is finished.
Speaker A:No more need for Sassagoba priests.
Speaker A:That's why the temple was destroyed.
Speaker A:The Jews don't need priests anymore either, because they need to look to their Messiah, the one who offered himself once for all sin for all time.
Speaker A:So, you know, I really encourage Roman Catholics because they believe their church is the same church that Christ founded.
Speaker A:And I encourage Them to look in the book of Acts will, you know, that's a history book of the first century church.
Speaker A:So if it's the same church that Jesus founded, why don't we see altars?
Speaker A:Why don't we see priests offering sacrifices for sin?
Speaker A:Why don't we see purgatory?
Speaker A:Why don't we see prayers for the dead?
Speaker A:Why don't we see Mary as a sinless mediator?
Speaker A:You know, the Catholic Church today does not resemble the first century church.
Speaker A:And so it's gone apostate and no longer resembles the church that Jesus Christ founded.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:So, so as you're, as you're having to let go of the sacraments, because I know a couple people that have gone through this.
Speaker C:Was that, was that a difficult process?
Speaker C:I know, I know a man who's left the Catholic Church and he's become.
Speaker C:He goes to a Presbyterian church now.
Speaker C:And in those early months, it was really, it was really like, kind of like meeting maybe.
Speaker C:I don't think he would say this, but riding a bike without training wheels in a way, and I don't mean to, I don't mean to liken those two things, just kind of like, okay, like, can I stabilize myself without this thing that I find very familiar.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, you know that once you're born again, you are justified and declared righteous.
Speaker A:That happens at a moment in time.
Speaker A:But then you begin the process of sanctification.
Speaker A:As you abide in God's Word, you learn more of his truth and you conform your life to the life of Christ.
Speaker A:And you put away the worthless things that you were doing in order to please God and to please Christ.
Speaker A:And so as I abided in God's Word, the truth was setting me more and more free from all these things that I was clinging to.
Speaker A:And I read in 2 Timothy 2 that we are to pray for those in opposition to the gospel, that God would grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth so they can escape the snare of the devil that holds them captive to do his will.
Speaker A:And as I read that, I realized as an unbeliever, I was held captive by the devil to do his will.
Speaker A:But the more I abided in God's word, the more the truth was setting me free from religious deception and religious captivity.
Speaker A:And so there's nothing better than to be set free by the truth of God's word.
Speaker A:But it is a process.
Speaker A:And that's why, again, the Great Commission is to make the cycles.
Speaker A:We teach people to observe everything Christ has commanded.
Speaker A:And one of those is that God seeks worshipers in spirit and in truth.
Speaker A:And so we cannot remain in a false religion.
Speaker A:We have to come out and worship God where the truth is being taught and the high view of God is being presented in the high view of Scripture.
Speaker C:So we've got some comments in the chat from some folks I think probably come from X.
Speaker C:So let's, let's pull up one right now.
Speaker C:This one says, catholics do not believe our own good works, save us.
Speaker C:That this is basic Catholic theology.
Speaker C:And then following from that, Catholics do not deny that Jesus finished his work.
Speaker C:His work either.
Speaker C:How do you.
Speaker C:If you wouldn't mind responding to a couple of those comments.
Speaker A:Well, if Catholics believe that Jesus finished his work of redemption and entered into heaven, as we read in Hebrews 9, then why do you continue to offer a Eucharistic Christ on an altar as a propitiatory sacrifice?
Speaker A:And I understand the terminology they use is to represent Christ as a sacrificial victim.
Speaker A:They're saying that it's a representation, but that's just stuff that's made up.
Speaker A:You won't find it in Scripture.
Speaker A:You find Jesus Christ the night before he went to the cross, saying, do this in memory of me.
Speaker A:Well, if Jesus Christ is physically present in the Eucharist, why are you doing something to remember him?
Speaker A:And we know that Jesus will not return to the earth again until after the tribulation.
Speaker A:The Bible tells us where he's going to return.
Speaker A:That's to the Mount of Olives.
Speaker A:The Bible tells us how he's going to return in a body, the same way he left.
Speaker A:And then we read in Hebrews 9:28, that when he returns the second time, it will not be to deal with sin.
Speaker A:And yet the Catholic Church believes that Jesus is present, body and soul, spirit and divinity in the Eucharist.
Speaker A:So he's physically present.
Speaker A:And yet that goes against all the Scriptures that I just shared.
Speaker A:And so the Catholic Church needs to read Hebrews 10, Hebrews 9.
Speaker A:They totally destroy the Roman Catholic Mass.
Speaker A:So the other question will was it.
Speaker C:Was about Catholics not believing that good works save us.
Speaker A:Well, of course they do.
Speaker A:In fact, the Council of Trent dares to condemn anyone that believes we are justified by faith alone.
Speaker A:Catholics say that they're justified by faith plus works.
Speaker A:That was a dividing line at the Council of Trent.
Speaker A:And so the Catholic Church needs to read their catechism.
Speaker A: Paragraph: Speaker A:And yet grace is unmerited favor.
Speaker A:Well, how does the Catholic merit Grace by receiving sacraments and doing good works.
Speaker C:So I want to take a little side road for a second.
Speaker C:Some of the comments that I've heard from, from a lot of young men who have left Protestantism, particularly for Eastern Orthodoxy, is that they appreciate the discipline of Orthodoxy.
Speaker C:And I think probably some would say they appreciate the same about Rome, that there are the sacraments at least provide some sort of structure that.
Speaker C:That Protestant churches don't appear to have.
Speaker C:Many of them don't.
Speaker C:Anyway, my response to that is always, well, your own daily scripture reading, prayer, confession, repentance, weekly church attend, all those provide a structure of spiritual disciplines.
Speaker C:Now, you've been doing this for decades.
Speaker C:What sort of spiritual disciplines do you practice?
Speaker A:Well, Bible reading and prayer and evangelism and meeting with a body of believers on the Lord's Day, also offering myself as service to the body of Christ.
Speaker A:Those are all spiritual disciplines, but primarily prayer and Bible reading and evangelism would be the three spiritual disciplines that I focus on.
Speaker A:And that's what puzzles me about Roman Catholics.
Speaker A:The Lord Jesus gave the Great Commission, and that is for every believer to go and make disciples.
Speaker A:And so you don't see Catholics going out trying to evangelize with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:And that's a spiritual discipline that Catholics do not look to.
Speaker A:Instead, they look to sacraments, such as they have to go to a priest to confess their sins.
Speaker A:And you know, that's going through another mediator.
Speaker A:And the priest is not qualified to be a mediator.
Speaker A:In fact, Jesus Christ is the only one qualified to be a mediator between God and man.
Speaker A:That's because he's God's perfect man and man's perfect God.
Speaker A:And so we are called to go through Jesus as the only mediator.
Speaker A:That's what I would encourage Catholics to do.
Speaker A:And again, I would encourage Catholics not to believe what I'm saying, believe what the word of God is saying.
Speaker A:All I'm doing is pointing Catholics to the Scripture, and that is what's going to bring conviction of the Holy Spirit of judgment and sin and the coming righteousness.
Speaker A:The Spirit of God has to illuminate the Word of God because the natural man cannot discern the things of God.
Speaker A:They're spiritually appraised.
Speaker A:And so as a Catholic opens the Bible, I would encourage them to ask the Spirit of God to illuminate the word of God to their hearts.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Perhaps we can also talk, since you mentioned mediator, perhaps we can talk a bit about Mary, a little bit.
Speaker C:I know that we're Treading on.
Speaker C:On dangerous ground in many ways by bringing up the subject.
Speaker C:It seems to be quite sensitive on X these days, but perhaps you could talk about Mary as another mediator.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The Catechism of the Catholic Church reads, without a single sin to restrain her, she became, don't miss this, the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race.
Speaker A:And that's paragraph 494.
Speaker A:So we'll listen to what the Catechism teaches.
Speaker A:She became the cause of salvation for herself right there.
Speaker A:The only people that need salvation are those who have sinned.
Speaker A:And so it's a contradiction.
Speaker A:Paragraph 494, but without a single sin.
Speaker A:So Catholics teach that she was immaculately conceived without sin and then lived a sinless life.
Speaker A:And then some Catholics that were aware of the Bible said, well, wait a minute.
Speaker A:If sin is what causes death and Mary never sinned, then Mary must still be alive.
Speaker A:Or is she?
Speaker A: And so in: Speaker A:She did not lay aside this saving office, but by her manifold intercession, continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.
Speaker A:Well, this robs the Lord Jesus Christ of all the honor and glory that he deserves.
Speaker A:Mary's not sinless.
Speaker A:She doesn't bring us the gifts of salvation.
Speaker A:She's not a mediator.
Speaker A:And so Catholics look to her.
Speaker A:Many Catholic women choose to go through Mary rather than Jesus.
Speaker A:She's said to be more understanding.
Speaker A:And so the Roman Catholic Church lifts up Mary, and we have to look at what this actually does.
Speaker A:It diverts the pure devotion away from Christ to someone else.
Speaker A:It's not only Mary the Catholics elevate, but they also have many saints that they look to and pray to for different petitions.
Speaker C:Maybe we can also talk about the treasury of merit.
Speaker C:I think this is a subject that I don't hear addressed too often, but I definitely don't see that reflected anywhere in Scripture.
Speaker A:Well, it's not.
Speaker A:But the Catholic Church has an invisible treasury of merit.
Speaker A:And listen to this.
Speaker A:It's said to contain the inexhaustible merits of Jesus Christ commingled with the merits of Mary and all those that died with more than enough merit to get them to heaven.
Speaker A:And then the Pope has the power to transfer these merits in the form of indulgences to those who are suffering in purgatory to expedite their removal from the purging fires of purgatory.
Speaker A:And so this whole treasury of Merit, as you said, you don't find in Scripture, it's only the merits of Christ that anyone can cling to for their salvation.
Speaker A:But it's really interesting, this whole concept of indulgences came about because of the first doctrine of demons that the Catholic Church followed.
Speaker A:You go back to the garden, the serpent told Adam, you surely shall not die if you break God's command.
Speaker A:The Catholic Church perpetuates that lie in its doctrine of venial sin, daring to say that there are some sins that you commit that do not cause death, only temporal punishment.
Speaker A:So the Catholic Church recognized, well, Catholics who die with venial sin, we need to create a place for them to go.
Speaker A:So they created Purgatory.
Speaker A:And this is where Catholics go when they die in venial sin.
Speaker A:Well, now that they're in purgatory, having their sins purged away, now they need a way to get them out.
Speaker A:So they created another lie, the lie of indulgences, which by definition is the remission of temporal punishment for sin.
Speaker A:And so when a Roman Catholic dies, the Catholic family members will go to the priest, and they will purchase a Mass card from the priest.
Speaker A:They'll put the name of their loved one on the Mass card, return it to the priest, he lays it on the altar.
Speaker A:And when the priest offers the propitiatory sacrifice, it's said to remove Catholic loved ones from purgatory.
Speaker A:But no priest will tell you how many Masses must be said before the soul is released.
Speaker A:And so Roman Catholics are held in bondage by the Roman Catholic priesthood, not only in this life, but also in the next life.
Speaker A:They're still utterly dependent upon the priest to get them out of this spectacious place called purgatory.
Speaker C:And I've heard that the views on purgatory have changed over time, that Purgatory used to be there for years, and now some are saying you might just be there for moments.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But no priest or bishop or pope can tell you how long anyone needs to spend or how many years they have to spend for each sin.
Speaker A:And so, again, it's a mystery because it's not found in the Bible.
Speaker A:And so Catholics make it up as they go.
Speaker C:You spoke earlier about your relationship with Mary.
Speaker C:I think you mentioned something about that when you were Catholic.
Speaker C:Can you talk a little bit about that shift in yourself?
Speaker C:We talked about some of the things that were difficult to let go of, the sacraments, particularly as your view of Mary began to shift.
Speaker C:How was that?
Speaker A:Oh, I wasn't your typical Catholic.
Speaker A:I didn't really have anything to do with Mary.
Speaker A:So I think, and I don't know this overall, but I think it's most Catholic women that prefer to go through Mary.
Speaker A:I know the popes, the last couple of popes have been very devoted to Mary.
Speaker A:And you see pictures of them bowing down before statues of her.
Speaker A:And even when Pope John Paul II died, he died with a set of rosary beads in his hands.
Speaker A:And we haven't talked about that.
Speaker A:But that's 53 repetitious prayers to Mary.
Speaker A:And I challenge Catholics.
Speaker A:Show me in the Bible, anywhere in the Bible where a God fearing man prays to anyone other than God.
Speaker A:God's the only one that can hear prayer.
Speaker A:He's the only one that can answer prayer prayers.
Speaker A:And it's another deception that Roman Catholics are held in bondage to.
Speaker C:And you also mentioned justification and sanctification.
Speaker C:I really recommend this book, Holiness by J.C.
Speaker C:ryle.
Speaker C:Just finished reading this and this is an entire book about the process of, about the process of sanctification.
Speaker C:But let's talk about justification real quick.
Speaker C:I think the thing that stands out to me about the Catholic faith is that you can lose your justification.
Speaker C:And what a terrifying thought.
Speaker A:Well, will.
Speaker A:And nowhere in the Bible, nowhere in the New Testament do you see anyone who was once justified becomes de justified and has to be re justified again.
Speaker A:You never see that anywhere in the New Testament.
Speaker A:Nor do you see anyone who was born again of the Spirit unto eternal life die again spiritually.
Speaker A:When you're born again, that is forever.
Speaker A:And so when you look at justification, there's so many differences.
Speaker A:The Bible says it's instantaneous.
Speaker A:It's a legal declaration by a holy judge in heaven.
Speaker A:The gavel comes down and the condemned sinner, because of its faith in Christ, is instantly justified, declared righteous in the righteousness of Christ, according to the Bible, is imputed or credited to the sinner's account immediately.
Speaker A:But the Roman Catholic Church says no righteousness is infused over a period of time.
Speaker A:The Catholic Church says justification changes the inner man.
Speaker A:They deny that it's a judicial legal term.
Speaker A:And so they confuse justification with sanctification.
Speaker A:Roman Catholics do not understand what justification is.
Speaker A:There's a great promise, as you know, will, in Romans 8:1, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
Speaker A:Once a sinner has been justified by their faith in Christ, they can never ever be condemned again.
Speaker A:And that's why we have the promise of eternal life.
Speaker A:Roman Catholics always fear dying in the state of mortal sin.
Speaker A:But believers never fear that because all of our sins were placed on Christ.
Speaker A:And his righteousness was credited to every believer's account.
Speaker C:And there's no infallible list of mortal sins either, which I find odd.
Speaker C:You'd think like, just don't do this set of things.
Speaker C:Oh, well, can you say it's this and no, you can't.
Speaker C:So the risk, it seems quite great.
Speaker A:Well, in the Bible clearly says all sins are mortal.
Speaker A:Romans 6, 23, the wages of sin is death.
Speaker A:Ezekiel 18:4.
Speaker A:The soul that sins will surely die.
Speaker A:And so Roman Catholics just can't understand that when you are born again of the Holy Spirit, you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord.
Speaker A:You're turning from sin daily.
Speaker A:And we know that when we do sin that that sin was already paid for.
Speaker A:At Calvary's cross in Titus 2, we see that the grace that brought us salvation teaches us to say no to ungodliness, no to worldly passions, and to live a self controlled, upright life.
Speaker A:That's the life of every believer.
Speaker A:Now let's face it, there are false converts in the Protestant churches and they've never been born again.
Speaker A:And so they continue to live like the devil because they've never experienced the born again experience.
Speaker A:So Roman Catholics will often point to false converts in our Protestant churches that live like the devil.
Speaker A:Well, point to a born again Christian.
Speaker A:There's where you see a life truly transformed.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And there are plenty of examples of not born again or not redeemed Catholics as well.
Speaker C:I mean, think about Joe Biden, you know, the identity as a Catholic.
Speaker C:So, you know, I think, I think the problem of hypocrisy is a real one.
Speaker C:So maybe we can talk a bit about sanctification then and that process of growth and godliness over time.
Speaker C:Because that is definitely something that I don't hear spoken about perhaps as often as should be.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's God that's in us.
Speaker A:He's doing a work in us.
Speaker A:It's, it's not a something we do on our own.
Speaker A:Once we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, we're constantly, day by day, putting to death the evil deeds of the flesh and conforming our life to the life of Christ.
Speaker A:And we're doing it through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker A:And greater is he that lives in us now than the devil that lives in the world.
Speaker A:And so through the process of sanctification, we're saying no to the flesh and no to the devil and yes to the Spirit.
Speaker A:And yes, we do stumble and fall occasionally into sin, but the more we are sanctified the more we look like Christ and the more we're victorious over sin, it's the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to conform our life to the life of Christ.
Speaker A:And there's another ingredient that goes into that, and that's abiding in God's Word, because it's the Word of God.
Speaker A:As we read, we see the life of Christ and we see what he endured so that we could be saved.
Speaker A:And we want to live life pleasing to him.
Speaker A:And so that's through the process of sanctification at the end of a believer's life.
Speaker A:Instantaneously we're glorified, and that is that we're taken into the presence of Christ, where sin no longer reigns.
Speaker A:And we're now either that or at the rapture of the Church, where we meet Christ in the air and we're instantaneously glorified.
Speaker A:We leave our sinful flesh behind and we go into heaven where righteousness dwells.
Speaker A:And that's the hope of every believer, a hope based on the truth of God's word, in fact, will.
Speaker A:That's the definition of faith.
Speaker A:It's the assurance of things hoped for.
Speaker A:Catholics have no assurance of going to heaven, so they don't have saving faith.
Speaker A:Hebrews 11.
Speaker A:1.
Speaker C:I just want to note how admirable your mastery of Scripture is.
Speaker C:And also the Catholic Catechism, the Councils of Trent, just the verses just coming from memory are inspiring and very challenging, sir.
Speaker C:So thank you for that.
Speaker A:Well, it's just abiding in God's Word and often pray that God would help me memorize the Scripture and He gets all the glory because it's His Word.
Speaker A:And I just love sharing it with people I meet throughout the day.
Speaker C:So can you talk about your global ministry?
Speaker C:Like this was a small thing you started a number of years ago, and then suddenly it's taken you around the world.
Speaker C:Maybe talk about the growth of that ministry in particular.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:We primarily go into countries that are dominated by Roman Catholicism.
Speaker A:And I've done ministry in the Philippines and over in Italy and Mexico, all throughout Europe, Croatia, it's dominated by Roman Catholicism.
Speaker A:Over the years, I've developed a lot of resources, including a book entitled Preparing for Eternity.
Speaker A:And this is a book that not only equips Christians to be more effective witnesses to Catholics, but it's also a great book to give to Catholics, because in the book, I compare, in contrast, the supreme authority of Scripture with the teachings of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Speaker A:And so as a Catholic reads this they have to make the same decision.
Speaker A:I Should I trust Christ in his word or the teachings and traditions of my religion?
Speaker A:It's impossible to believe both.
Speaker A:And so this book, Preparing for Eternity, is now in five different languages, Spanish and Italian, and it's also in Czech and Polish and also down in Brazil and Portuguese.
Speaker A:So we are excited to make this available to so many Roman Catholics in different foreign languages.
Speaker A:We also have eight different gospel tracts.
Speaker A:Will we really believe that when we give the gospel verbally, we should also leave it in written form?
Speaker A:And so we just celebrated 1 million gospel tracts in circulation of one particular track, Roman Catholicism, Scripture versus Tradition.
Speaker A:And this track is, again, an excellent tract to give to Roman Catholics because it shows the two paths to eternity.
Speaker A:The wide road that leads to destruction and the narrow road that leads to life.
Speaker A:And when I show that to a Catholic, they say, yes, that's the road I'm on, the wide road to destruction.
Speaker A:They say a picture is worth a thousand words.
Speaker A:Then you show them the narrow way that leads to eternal life.
Speaker A:It's not based on water baptism, but it's based on faith in Christ.
Speaker A:And we really haven't talked about water baptism, but Catholics believe that that is the sacrament that causes their regeneration.
Speaker A:It's also a sacrament that justifies them.
Speaker A:But the ministry has gone throughout the world, throughout America.
Speaker A:Conferences, churches, seminaries, and our website, proclaimingthegospel.org, a wealth of information, not only videos of my teachings on different subjects that address Roman Catholicism, but also on discernment, on apologetics, on evangelism, how to be effective witnesses for Christ.
Speaker A:And we also have a set of gospel cards.
Speaker A:The average Roman Catholic doesn't understand the gospel, so these gospel cards feature the 12 most important words of the gospel.
Speaker A:And on the back of each card, it defines and explains what each word means.
Speaker A:So I encourage Catholics to visit our website, look at the resources, and ask God to reveal the truth to them.
Speaker A:And he will do that.
Speaker A:Jesus said, anyone who comes to me, I will never forsake.
Speaker C:So as you travel the world evangelizing, what are some of the things that you find today in particular, that are most difficult for Catholics to grapple with?
Speaker A:I'm glad you asked that question.
Speaker A:I can speak from experience.
Speaker A:I was indoctrinated from the time I could think that the Catholic Church was the one true church and that as long as you're loyal to the religion, that you will eventually get to heaven.
Speaker A:And so that's a huge obstacle to overcome.
Speaker A:Catholics believe they belong to the one true church.
Speaker A:So when evangelicals approach Catholics, they pretty much dismiss us.
Speaker A:Because you're the Johnny come lately, as they say, your church only started 500 years ago.
Speaker A:But that's not true, Will.
Speaker A:Your church and my church started 2,000 years ago.
Speaker A:And there was the church that Jesus Christ founded.
Speaker A:Jesus said the gates of hell shall never prevail against his church.
Speaker A:And so we can point back to Matthew 16 and see that that's where our church was formed.
Speaker A:What the Catholic Church doesn't understand is the term apostasy.
Speaker A:They departed from the faith of the apostles.
Speaker A:They started following pagan traditions in the 4th century.
Speaker A:And then at the Council of Trent, they dogmatically departed from the faith by condemning born again Christians with all these anathemas.
Speaker A:If you don't believe the Roman Catholic Church and what it teaches.
Speaker A:And so that was the official departure from the church of the Apostles.
Speaker A:And how do I know that apostasy has existed for 2,000 years?
Speaker A:We go to scripture.
Speaker A:In first John, chapter two, John writes, they went out from us because they were never part of us.
Speaker A:Had they been part of us, they would have remained with us.
Speaker A:So we see apostasy starting in the first century church.
Speaker A:When you look at Constantine in the fourth century, he was named Pontificus Maximus, which means the highest priest.
Speaker A:And so he started inviting all the pagans into his church.
Speaker A:All they had to do was go through the baptismal font.
Speaker A:There was no call to repentance or faith.
Speaker A:And so this is really the formation of the Catholic religion.
Speaker A:And that's when so many pagan traditions came into the church, many of which are practiced today.
Speaker A:The very term transubstantiation is not found in the Bible.
Speaker A:That's where the Catholic priest is said to have the power to change the inner substance of a wafer into the physical body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ.
Speaker A:This was made an infallible dogma in the 12th century.
Speaker A:But what happened for the first thousand years, you won't find that in Scripture.
Speaker A:Christ entered into heaven having obtained eternal redemption.
Speaker A:And so as we go around the world, we see this fierce opposition to the Gospel because of religious indoctrination and will.
Speaker A:You know from 2 Corinthians 4:4, the God of this world, Satan, has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the Gospel or the glory of Christ.
Speaker A:The most powerful tool Satan uses is religious indoctrination.
Speaker A:It blinds people from having any desire to look into God's word and to see the truth.
Speaker A:And so that's why we have to pray.
Speaker A:Pray For God to reveal the truth to them, you know, Will.
Speaker A:There's two things necessary for physical birth.
Speaker A:You need the sperm and the egg.
Speaker A:There's two things necessary for spiritual birth.
Speaker A:You need the Word of God and the Spirit of God.
Speaker A:The Spirit of God in John 16 convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and the coming judgment.
Speaker A:But the Spirit of God also illuminates the word of God to a sinner's heart so that they can understand the Word of God.
Speaker A:So we're called to deliver the imperishable seed of God's word to those who are lost.
Speaker A:And then we pray the Spirit of God will bring conviction and illumination as we do that.
Speaker A:That's why it's so important as we witness, to also pray for those we're witnessing to.
Speaker C:So I want to talk my way to a question, just so bear with me as I talk this through.
Speaker C:So one of the comments that I got from someone messaged me saying that.
Speaker C:That in terms of if I wanted to evangelize to Catholics, that there might be someone who.
Speaker C:What word did he use that might be more friendly to people who are sort of grappling with these issues than.
Speaker C:Than you are.
Speaker C:That was kind of what he.
Speaker C:What he was saying.
Speaker C:But I have.
Speaker C:In this conversation and your content, I've experienced you as.
Speaker C:As uncompromising.
Speaker C:I think it's probably, as, you know, I don't experience you as being unfriendly.
Speaker C:It seems to be uncompromising.
Speaker C:But we live in an age where.
Speaker C:Where there's a desire to soften everything, you know, to make everything perhaps more nice or winsome in a negative way.
Speaker C:Nice is probably a better word.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And you seem to have held by this uncompromising standard throughout your ministry, from watching some of your older videos, et cetera.
Speaker C:Do you find, like, how.
Speaker C:How was that?
Speaker C:How has that been this.
Speaker C:This approach?
Speaker C:Because it is very.
Speaker C:It is very direct.
Speaker C:And I had.
Speaker C:I had admire it a whole lot, but I imagine that it can't have been easy.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker A:And we really haven't talked about effective ways to reach Catholics, but the way I do it is by asking questions.
Speaker A:You know, we look to the Lord Jesus as the perfect evangelist.
Speaker A:And I don't know if you're aware how many questions he asked in his three years of ministry on this earth, but he asked over 300 questions.
Speaker A:And so that should be our model as we evangelize.
Speaker A:And we've got some great questions to ask Roman Catholics.
Speaker A:And, you know, a conversation should really be balanced.
Speaker A:We Ask a question, wait for the response.
Speaker A:We offer a scripture, see how they respond to it.
Speaker A:And the worst thing we can do is back the theological dump truck on people and let them have it all in one fell swoop.
Speaker A:But it's a balanced conversation, and I like to ask questions like, do you know where you're going to spend eternity?
Speaker A:We actually have a Gospel tract entitled that, and are you basing your salvation on what you do or what Christ has done?
Speaker A:We have a Gospel tract that Catholics can read on that, too.
Speaker A:And so one of the great questions we can ask Catholics is, do you have the assurance of eternal life?
Speaker A:And they all say no.
Speaker A:And then we'll ask why?
Speaker A:And it's because they don't know if they've done enough.
Speaker A:And so the only way we can have assurance is to encourage Catholics to repent of all they're doing and put all of their trust in what Christ has done, because that's the only way anyone can have assurance.
Speaker A:He canceled the eternal sin debt for believers and gave his righteousness.
Speaker A:That gives every believer the assurance into heaven.
Speaker A:So by asking questions, then we can respond with the word of God when they return with questions of their own.
Speaker A:So I would encourage any evangelical that's listening to go to our website.
Speaker A:I've actually done a message on evangelizing Catholics biblically.
Speaker A:And from there they'll learn a lot of good principles for being a good and effective witness for Christ.
Speaker C:So maybe we can talk a bit about evangelicals then, because I think some of the problems in the Protestant church today are a major hindrance for many Catholics and many Protestants for that matter as well.
Speaker C:You know, seeing the decay of the Protestant church, it doesn't often speak well of.
Speaker C:Of the faith, let's say.
Speaker A:Well, we do have to let Catholics know that this is not an issue of Protestant versus Catholicism.
Speaker A:It's an issue of what does the word of God say?
Speaker A:There are a lot of false converts, not only in the Catholic Church, but also in Protestant churches.
Speaker A:And we see that in Matthew 7, he said, many will even call me Lord, and.
Speaker A:And then they'll boast in all the things that they're doing in his name.
Speaker A:And Jesus will say, depart from me.
Speaker A:I never knew you.
Speaker A:So these are professing Christians that call Jesus Lord, but they've never been born again.
Speaker A:And so when you look at the Protestant church, our churches are filled with false converts.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:Because they're not getting the pure and exclusive gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:They don't know what the gospel is.
Speaker A:There's what you call easy believism.
Speaker A:And many Protestant pastors are saying, all you have to do is believe in Jesus and you'll be saved.
Speaker A:No, we have to believe not only in the person of Jesus, but also in the work that he accomplished.
Speaker A:And not only do we need to believe, but we need to repent.
Speaker A:The first command of Jesus was repent and believe the Gospel.
Speaker A:The word repent is a Greek word, netanoia, that means to change your mind.
Speaker A:For 35 years, I believed a false gospel in the Catholic Church.
Speaker A:In order to believe the true gospel, I had to change my mind about the false gospel and believe the true gospel.
Speaker A:So you see in that passage in Matthew 7, not only did Jesus say, depart from me because they were doing things to save themselves, but he said they never departed from iniquity.
Speaker A:There was no repentance.
Speaker A:And so unfortunately, many Protestant pastors are not preaching repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaker C:One of the comments that I also get from Catholicism is, is from Catholics is that the trap of falling into private interpretation.
Speaker C:And maybe you can speak a little bit, a little bit to that so that a believer doesn't end up just kind of wandering into the wilderness on their own.
Speaker C:Just be in my Bible.
Speaker C:And that's.
Speaker C:And that's all that I need.
Speaker C:I get that a lot actually.
Speaker C:There are a lot of high profile new converts to Christianity and I tend to ask them, are they attending a church?
Speaker C:And then I'll get a bunch of comments from other people saying they don't have to attend a church.
Speaker C:I don't know about that.
Speaker A:Well, it's a good question.
Speaker A:Everyone is going to be held responsible for how they interpreted the word of God.
Speaker A:And there's a study of hermeneutics where you learn the skills of interpretation.
Speaker A:And of course, the best method is a literal, historical, grammatical method of interpretation.
Speaker A:But we also have to let Scripture interpret scripture.
Speaker A:When you look at the epistles, you see that they were written to the saints at each church, not to any bishop to interpret the Scriptures for them.
Speaker A:Each church was sent the Scriptures so that each individual could read them, study them and believe them.
Speaker A:And so we have to be good interpreters of God's word.
Speaker A:And oftentimes I think the more you read, the more you can see how it's a tapestry, how you're reading one area here and it pulls a string in another area over here that you've been reading.
Speaker A:But when you come to a difficult passage, there's different tools that you can use to enable scripture to interpret scripture so that you Get a true meaning of what God is revealing to us.
Speaker C:How can someone do that without attending Dallas Theological Seminary?
Speaker A:Well, there's a lot of tools today.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:Boy, you can get different Bibles online.
Speaker A:You can get Logos software.
Speaker A:There's so many different ways to study the best way to interpret Scripture.
Speaker A:And we know that God never contradicts himself.
Speaker A:So if you see an apparent contradiction, you have to keep digging until you can reconcile what two passages mean.
Speaker C:So someone just says.
Speaker C:Just want to say, as a former Catholic, that Gendron has no idea what he's talking about and no one should listen to him about Catholicism.
Speaker A:I hear that all the time, Will.
Speaker A:I only lived it for 35 years, and now I've been studying it for another 35, and I think I know it pretty well.
Speaker C:What are some of the chief objections you run into when people say, ah, you have no idea?
Speaker C:I don't.
Speaker C:I mean, I've done a lot of reading and study on the topic, and it doesn't seem to me that you don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker C:But what are some of the chief things that people think that you don't understand?
Speaker C:All this seems quite consistent.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I get emails like that all the time.
Speaker A:And I simply say, if you will show me one place where I was wrong about Catholic teaching, I'll repent and apologize.
Speaker A:But then they just say, oh, you're totally wrong everywhere.
Speaker A:They never come up with any specific place where I was wrong or I was misleading a Catholic.
Speaker A:All I do is quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church verbatim, and I quote the word of God.
Speaker A:And so I leave it up to a Catholic to choose.
Speaker A:Should I trust my Catechism, the uninspired words of men, or should I trust the Bible, the inspired word of God?
Speaker A:I don't want them to believe me.
Speaker A:I want them to believe the Scriptures.
Speaker C:And that's great because it brings up another set of questions around Sola Scriptura, which I find is either not well articulated by people who are opposed to Protestantism or not well understood at all.
Speaker C:And so maybe we can spend some time digging into that, because during my scripture reading, I see Sola Scriptura reflected all throughout the Bible.
Speaker C:No one ever comes out and explicitly says it.
Speaker C:But there's a lot that we know about, you know, the teachings of the Old and New Testament that aren't ever explicitly stated.
Speaker C:So maybe we can start unpacking that, because that seems to be the crux of the whole thing.
Speaker A:Well, Catholics will often say that Sola Scriptura is a Protestant tradition.
Speaker A:And they may be right.
Speaker A:Because up until the 16th century, the Catholic Church submitted to the authority of Scripture.
Speaker A:It was at the Council of Trent that they elevated tradition to be equal in authority to God's word.
Speaker A:So that's why the Reformers cried, sola scriptura.
Speaker A:They were saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to Scripture alone, all for the glory of God alone.
Speaker A:And they were right.
Speaker A:Catholics misunderstand what we mean by sola scriptura.
Speaker A:In First Corinthians 15, verses 1 to 4, Paul defines the Gospel, and he defines it according to Scripture alone.
Speaker A:It is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to Scripture.
Speaker A:It doesn't point us to any other book, to any other authority.
Speaker A:If you want to know how to be saved, it's fully contained in Scripture.
Speaker A:And then you look at 2 Timothy 3, 16.
Speaker A:All scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof.
Speaker A:Many Catholics don't know what the word reproof means.
Speaker A:It means to correct.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker A:It means to expose, expose error.
Speaker A:So once an error has been reproved and exposed, then Scripture is useful for correcting that error and for training in righteousness.
Speaker A:2 Timothy 3, 3, 16.
Speaker A:All scripture.
Speaker A:That's all we need to be complete in Christ.
Speaker A:And so is all truth contained in Scripture.
Speaker A:All the truth we need in order to be saved is.
Speaker A:So I think we need to redefine for Catholics what we mean by Scripture alone.
Speaker A:That's all we need in order to know how to be saved.
Speaker C:In the very next chapter of 2 Timothy, it says, preach the word.
Speaker C:That's 2 Timothy, what, 1 through 4.
Speaker C:And I actually pulled up some sections that I always go back to that's reminding me about sola scriptura.
Speaker C:So Jesus's temptation in the wilderness, he replies to Satan himself.
Speaker C:It is written.
Speaker C:It is written.
Speaker C:It is written.
Speaker C:He doesn't say because I say so.
Speaker C:He doesn't say because it is the tradition.
Speaker C:He says that as he appeals to the Scripture against Satan himself.
Speaker C:And that's actually what the Westminster Confession of Faith appeals to for.
Speaker C:For the defense of soul.
Speaker C:Scriptura.
Speaker C:One of the.
Speaker C:In one of the first pages, if not the first page, that this is.
Speaker C:This is all you need right there.
Speaker C:You appeal to Scripture as the highest and sole infallible authority.
Speaker C:And because Jesus himself does it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's no higher authority than that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:He could have said, I am the God, man.
Speaker A:I am Jesus Christ, believe me.
Speaker A:But no, he said quoted Scripture.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Explicitly saying it is written.
Speaker C:It is written.
Speaker C:It is written.
Speaker C:It is written not.
Speaker C:It is not.
Speaker C:The tradition is, or, or, you know, as we say, or, you know, this collection of, of priests or whatever said this.
Speaker C:It is written.
Speaker C:It is fixed in, In.
Speaker C:In print and paper and writing.
Speaker C:You know, this is.
Speaker C:This is the standard to which, you know, I appeal.
Speaker C:This is the word of God.
Speaker C:God breathed authority directly to Satan's face.
Speaker A:And we're also be good Bereans.
Speaker A: I love sharing Acts: Speaker A:He's preaching in the synagogues of Berea.
Speaker A:And as he's teaching, he notices that his listeners are searching the Scriptures daily to test the veracity of an apostle.
Speaker A:So clearly it shows that Scripture has the authority even over an apostle.
Speaker A:And Paul didn't get offended.
Speaker A:He didn't say, don't you know who I am?
Speaker A:Don't you know I'm an apostle, the author of Scripture.
Speaker A:He said, no, this is good.
Speaker A:Test every man's teaching with the word of God.
Speaker A:Prove whether or not it's true.
Speaker A:Looking at Scriptures.
Speaker C:And then in Acts 18, Apollos is described as being mighty in the Scriptures, as a.
Speaker C:As a.
Speaker C:As a signature characteristic of him.
Speaker C:Right again.
Speaker C:It shows up again.
Speaker C:And then I think about Stephen, Stephen's defense as one long scripture, one long scripture quotation, the entire thing.
Speaker C:That's all that he appeals to.
Speaker A:We should not live on bread, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:And then also James's judgment.
Speaker C:A Jerusalem council resolves everything by Scripture.
Speaker C:So this is when they talk about the church fathers, the early church fathers, the earliest, the actual Church fathers in Acts are always appealing to Scripture the entire way through.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:It's a principle every Roman Catholic should follow.
Speaker A:But unfortunately, they've been told there's three authorities, There's Scripture plus sacred tradition, and then the magisterium of the Church, which is made up of all the bishops, even though they say they're equal, it's actually the bishops that sit above Scripture and tradition and they twist and distort Scripture so that it conforms to their tradition.
Speaker C:So for some of the Catholics listening who are convicted by some of the things that you're saying, what advice would you give them?
Speaker A:I would say follow the words of Christ.
Speaker A:In John chapter eight, when he was dealing with the apostate Jews, he said, a true disciple of mine is one who abides in my word.
Speaker A:Then they will know the truth, and the truth will set them free.
Speaker A:Free from what?
Speaker A:Free from the bondage of sin.
Speaker A:Free from the bondage of religious deception, free from the bondage of Satan.
Speaker A:Study the word of God.
Speaker A:Abide in it.
Speaker A:Then you will know the truth and you'll be set free.
Speaker A:That's the best advice I could give.
Speaker C:To a Catholic, to someone who might hear that and say, but I can't bring myself to believe that Satan has anything to do with this.
Speaker C:They might find that particular idea challenging.
Speaker C:This is Mother Church.
Speaker C:This is maybe what they were raised in.
Speaker C:How would you respond to that?
Speaker A:Satan is the master deceiver.
Speaker A:He's the master counterfeiter.
Speaker A:He has produced a counterfeit Christ in the Catholic Church called the Eucharist.
Speaker A:By the authority of Scripture, we know that that is not Jesus physically present in the Eucharist.
Speaker A:He will return a second time not to deal with sin.
Speaker A:Hebrews 9:28.
Speaker A:That one verse destroys the Roman Catholic Mass and the Roman Catholic Eucharist.
Speaker A:So Satan is the master deceiver.
Speaker A:He's the master counterfeiter, and he is the God of this world.
Speaker A:He's blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the Gospel or the glory of Christ.
Speaker A:Catholics don't even know what the Gospel is.
Speaker A:They think it's Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Speaker A:Oftentimes we have to show them first.
Speaker A:Corinthians 15:1 4.
Speaker A:It is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to Scripture for the salvation of all those who believe it.
Speaker A:Paul said, if you believe any other gospel, you believed in vain.
Speaker A:1 Corinthians 15:2.
Speaker A:And then in Romans 1:16, he says, the Gospel is the power of God for the salvation of all who believe it.
Speaker A:My dear Roman Catholics, please read and study the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:It's all about him and nothing to do with you.
Speaker A:The only thing we contribute to our salvation is our sin.
Speaker A:Christ did everything necessary to save us completely and forever trust in him alone.
Speaker C:Can you maybe relate a story of a.
Speaker C:Of a Roman Catholic you met and maybe you got into.
Speaker C:I'm almost certain this has happened, where you got into real serious heated conflict with them and you thought for sure this person would never come around.
Speaker C:And then perhaps days, weeks, months or even years later, they called you and said you planted a seed.
Speaker C:Can you.
Speaker C:Do you have stories like that?
Speaker C:I'm sure you must have many.
Speaker A:We have, oh, so many stories over 35 years.
Speaker A:But I think one in particular would be there was a Roman Catholic that had her two children in a Christian school in the Dallas Fort Worth area.
Speaker A:And one day there I think they were 11 and 13 years old.
Speaker A:They came home telling their Catholic mom that the kids at school were saying they have no hope of going to heaven since they were Catholic.
Speaker A:And so the mother got very upset at these Christians that they would say such a thing.
Speaker A:So she asked if she could meet with us for three hours.
Speaker A:We explained why the Christians at this Christian school would say that.
Speaker A:And we explained what the gospel is and what she was trusting in in the Catholic Church was not the gospel.
Speaker A:It was a works, righteousness, salvation.
Speaker A:And at the end of our three hours, she said, how can I have the same joy and the same peace that you and your wife have?
Speaker A:I said, the only way we have this joy and peace is we know that the moment we die, we're going to be in the presence of our Savior because we have the assurance of eternal life, and it's based on believing what we have shared with you over the last three hours.
Speaker A:And she said, well, what do I need to do?
Speaker A:I said, look at Romans 10.
Speaker A:If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Speaker A:I said, look at verse 13.
Speaker A:Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
Speaker A:She cried out to the Lord to save her.
Speaker A:And then she said, what am I going to do?
Speaker A:I've just been named fundraiser at All Saints Catholic Church.
Speaker A:I had to go tell the priest that I can no longer go there, and my son is an altar boy.
Speaker A:I'll have to take him out.
Speaker A:And so she said, will you come with me when I meet with the priest?
Speaker A:I said, absolutely.
Speaker A:And so we met with the priest, and I introduced myself.
Speaker A:I said, could you explain to Rose that she has any hope of going to heaven?
Speaker A:And he started listing all the things she has to do.
Speaker A:Be baptized, receive the sacraments, attend the sacrifice of the Mass, do good works, obey the law.
Speaker A:And I saw a Bible on his desk.
Speaker A:I said, could you open to the Book of Romans?
Speaker A:I'd like you to read a couple of verses.
Speaker A:And when he read the verses, I said, how are you going to reconcile what God just said with what you told Rose?
Speaker A:Well, now he knew why I was there.
Speaker A:He said, this meeting is over.
Speaker A:I said, no, there's nothing more important than settling this woman's eternal destiny.
Speaker A:So for the next 15 minutes, he tried to reconcile what God said with what he said.
Speaker A:And each time he did, I offered another scripture that refuted what he just said.
Speaker A:And he was getting so frustrated, and finally he threw up his hands and said, Look, I don't have the authority to interpret the word of God on my own.
Speaker A:We rely on the bishops of the Church.
Speaker A:They're the only authentic interpreters.
Speaker A:And then he dismissed us.
Speaker A:So we walk out of his office.
Speaker A:I open my Bible to Second Corinthians 4, 2.
Speaker A:And I said, rose, look at this verse.
Speaker A:God presents the truth plainly to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
Speaker A:We don't need bishops to interpret the word of God for us.
Speaker A:The Scriptures are written to every individual believer and every individual.
Speaker A:We're all going to be held responsible for what the Word of God says.
Speaker A:She said, oh, Mike, I know I could never go back here.
Speaker A:Here was a priest who didn't even understand how to get to heaven.
Speaker C:I imagine that it might be difficult for some who are raised or catechized in that system to believe that it can be that easy.
Speaker C:And they don't want to.
Speaker C:They can't trust it.
Speaker C:Like, do you run into that?
Speaker C:Like, it can't be that easy.
Speaker C:I have to do all these things.
Speaker C:Like, no, it actually can be that easy.
Speaker C:And that is the gospel.
Speaker A:It is, yeah.
Speaker A:Our response to the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ is to repent, change our mind, and believe the true gospel.
Speaker A:And once we do, then we are new creatures in Christ.
Speaker A:And then we do the works that God has prepared for us to walk in.
Speaker A:It's a lot easier to be an unbeliever because you only have one nature, the sin nature.
Speaker A:But once you become a believer, you now have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Speaker A:And there's a constant war going on between the flesh and the Spirit.
Speaker A:We are tempted as believers in Christ to commit sins, but it's a moment by moment decision to say no to the flesh and yes to the Spirit.
Speaker A:And that's what the life of the Christian is.
Speaker A:It's not an easy life.
Speaker C:And you discovered that.
Speaker C:Did you discover that as you walked through that process?
Speaker C:Like, this is something that certainly I've learned over the process, process of my own sanctification, learning to walk in many ways for the first time.
Speaker C:I don't know if I would describe it as on my own, because it's not on my own per se, but it's learning to walk in this righteousness and being delivered from my sin nature.
Speaker C:I mean, these are things that are universal to all Christians, having to learn how to do who become born again.
Speaker A:It's a constant battle between the flesh and the Spirit.
Speaker A:And that's what sanctification is.
Speaker A:It's saying yes to the Spirit and No, to the flesh flesh day by day, moment by moment.
Speaker C:And just you've been very generous with your time today, sir.
Speaker C:Thank you very much.
Speaker C:Do you, do you have future plans for the ministry?
Speaker C:Is proclaiming the gospel?
Speaker C:Is it, is it have some things coming up that people should know about?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:We're always going on the road and going into the year into different churches.
Speaker A:We've got some opportunities in the Witchita, Kansas area in April.
Speaker A:Also go to Phoenix, Arizona during the two day conference there.
Speaker A:And then we'll be out in Albuquerque.
Speaker A:Later on we'll go back to Southern California.
Speaker A:So if there's any pastors or anybody in evangelical churches that would like me to come in, just email us or call us.
Speaker A: ll give out our phone number,: Speaker A:And we'd be glad to go out and equip the body of Christ anywhere.
Speaker A:And that's what the Lord has called us to do.
Speaker A:So we love Roman Catholics.
Speaker A:We want to see them get off the broad road to destruction and get on the narrow road that leads to life.
Speaker A:And that's our heartbeat.
Speaker A:That's what we live for day in and day out, to glorify our Lord Jesus Christ and demonstrate our love by being faithful to the Great Commission.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Thank you for your many years of faithful work that have, that has impacted my life and my faith.
Speaker C:And I pray this conversation impacts more people as well.
Speaker A:Well, thank you, Will.
Speaker A:It's been a great privilege to be on your show.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:Mike Sa.
