Episode 223
NICK JONSSON - From Depression to Triumph: Conquering the Dark Side of Corporate Glory
Nick Jonsson climbed the corporate ladder for over a decade before realizing his success came at a devastating personal cost. After hitting rock bottom with alcoholism, depression, and failed relationships, he found the courage to admit he needed help.
By embracing vulnerability and making amends to those he had hurt, Nick discovered a new path forward based on honesty and connection rather than achievement alone. His experience revealed how many high-powered executives suffer silently behind professional masks while feeling deeply isolated.
Nick now helps other professionals avoid his painful journey by teaching them to prioritize holistic well-being and find purpose beyond corporate success.
TAKEAWAYS
- High-achieving executives often suffer from "smiling depression" - appearing successful while experiencing intense isolation and mental health struggles.
- Fear of vulnerability in professional settings can lead to catastrophic thinking and self-sabotage, even when performing well externally.
- Corporate culture can foster addictive behaviors as coping mechanisms for mounting pressure and performance anxiety.
- Making amends and moral inventories are essential steps in recovery, not just from addiction but from disconnected lifestyles.
- Finding purpose beyond professional achievement creates sustainable well-being and authentic connection with others.
- Creating safe spaces for vulnerability in business settings can literally save lives, as approximately 30% of executives experience loneliness.
CONNECT WITH NICK
- Website: www.nickjonsson.com
- LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/nick-jonsson
- YouTube: www.youtube.com/c/NickJonsson
- Instagram: www.instagram.com/jonssonnick
- Facebook: https://web.facebook.com/jonsson.nick
- Buy "Executive Loneliness" on Amazon
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Foreign.
Speaker B:Hello, my name is Will Spencer, and welcome to the Will Spencer Podcast.
Speaker B:This is a weekly show featuring in depth conversations with authors, leaders and influencers who help us understand our changing world.
Speaker B:New episodes release every Friday.
Speaker B:My guest this week is Nick Johnson, an executive coach as the author of the Outstanding book Executive the Five Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety, and Depression in the Modern Business World.
Speaker B:When I was offered the opportunity to interview Nick, I jumped at it without knowing anything beyond what you've just heard.
Speaker B:Because from my work with men, I know an uncomfortable truth.
Speaker B:Sometimes the most successful, hardest working, and most highly acclaimed professionals are the most lonely, empty and depressed.
Speaker B:Of course, we tend to look at the all star athlete, the glitzy actor, the rock star, the high powered executive, or the accomplished faith leader and think, man, that guy must have it all.
Speaker B:We imagine these men crushing it in public, then sleeping sweetly with no conflict in their homes or inner lives.
Speaker B:But sadly, in my experience, that isn't the case.
Speaker B:In fact, it's often the opposite.
Speaker B:Those who perform at the highest levels often find that it's lonely at the top and just as lonely on the climb.
Speaker B:Far from having the certainty they project professionally, they're racked with guilt, fear, insecurity, and anxiety that their human failings will soon be discovered.
Speaker B:This leads to all sorts of coping behaviors.
Speaker B:Drug and alcohol addiction, infidelity, outbursts of anger, gambling, spending sprees, and more.
Speaker B:All our attempts to medicate the inner fear that comes from pushing far beyond one's capabilities while chasing material fulfillment and status.
Speaker B:I saw it repeatedly in men's inner work.
Speaker B:Wealthy professionals arriving at retreats with gold watches, shiny polo shirts, and shinier sports cars, only to have these stripped away, to become just another man in the crowd.
Speaker B:And that's when the truth emerged.
Speaker B:And it was profound and humbling to to witness just how superficial success can be.
Speaker B:The depression I've seen in these men isn't uncommon.
Speaker B:Men faltering repeatedly in their careers, marriages and families isn't uncommon either.
Speaker B:I've sat beside more than one man for whom a men's retreat was a result of his friend's intervention or his last shot before yet another marriage ended.
Speaker B:But you know what is uncommon?
Speaker B:A man making it all the way back.
Speaker B:Not just returning to where he was, but growing beyond himself into the man he always could be.
Speaker B:Someone who breaks something through pride or fear, but then learns to rebuild with genuine integrity.
Speaker B:And that's the story you're about to hear from Nick Johnson.
Speaker B:I'll let him tell it because it's better from his mouth than mine.
Speaker B:But Nick climbed to success, fell to his lowest point, and found the strength to rebuild correctly.
Speaker B:He worked through a failed marriage, an estranged son, alcoholism, depression, job loss and more to become an example of what men can achieve with an ounce of moral courage and a pound of conviction, followed by a years long commitment to making things right.
Speaker B:I've met very few men who have completed this journey of restoration and we desperately need more of them.
Speaker B:So while I initially wanted to talk with Nick about professional struggles with loneliness through our conversation and his book, I was thrilled to find there's so much more to the story.
Speaker B:Now I should mention that Nick is not a Christian and this is a Christian podcast which creates a unique opportunity to speak to two audiences today.
Speaker B:First, for those listeners who follow Nick but aren't believers, I want to highlight the extraordinary effort he invested in becoming a moral man.
Speaker B:It wasn't enough to be successful.
Speaker B:With a full bank account and travel schedule, you'll hear where that path led him.
Speaker B:Then notice we're courageously following a higher moral law took him instead.
Speaker B:Consider the man he was, perhaps someone you can relate to.
Speaker B:Then consider the man he's become by walking a road that by his own admission was guided by something greater than himself.
Speaker B:Now for my Christian listeners, you'll also recognize familiar themes in Nick's story.
Speaker B:Confession, repentance, restitution, and especially redemption.
Speaker B:The idea that even the most painful events of our lives can be turned to the good by with faith.
Speaker B:I'm sure that this is a pattern you can recognize in your story.
Speaker B:I see it in mine now.
Speaker B:Naturally there are always steps further to go, but if you ask me, this is what it looks like to get a running start.
Speaker B:If this is your first time enjoying the Will Spencer Podcast, welcome.
Speaker B:If you like what you hear, please subscribe.
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Speaker B:And don't forget to leave a five star review.
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Speaker B:You can subscribe to my substack at the link in the description or click Buy Me a Coffee in the show Notes.
Speaker B:Every contribution you make helps keep this independent platform running.
Speaker B:And please welcome this week's guest on the podcast, the Executive Coach Speaker, Ironman Triathlete and the best selling author of Executive Loneliness, Nick Johnson.
Speaker A:Foreign.
Speaker B:Nick Johnson, Author of Executive Loneliness thanks so much for joining me on the Will Spencer Podcast.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for inviting me, Will Man.
Speaker B:You know, as we Were talking just before we hit record.
Speaker B:I really enjoyed your book.
Speaker B:I read the whole thing and I'm very impressed with the depth of honesty and sincerity and thoroughness that you wrote this book.
Speaker B:I think the world of executives as widely misunderstood and you really open the door to it.
Speaker B:So thank you so much for that.
Speaker A:Well, thank you, Will.
Speaker A:It was a big decision to release it.
Speaker A:As you can imagine as you read a book, there's a lot of self disclosure in there.
Speaker A:But once I made a decision, there was no turning back.
Speaker A:And I think it's the best decision I ever made in my life.
Speaker B:That's perfect because I was actually curious reading it, like, wow, like you, you went there, like you said the thing and to put it in print and to put it out there and then, you know, the publicity around it, like it was a big step.
Speaker B:So just a first question, like, can you take, can you take us into that moment where you made that decision?
Speaker B:Like, oh, wow, I'm really going to do this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I actually checked in with a couple of my friends, mentors and my second wife.
Speaker A:We just got married.
Speaker A:I asked her as well.
Speaker A:There was of course a few people who said, Nick, this would be career suicide.
Speaker A:You will never be able to be employed again.
Speaker A:And what about your medical insurance?
Speaker A:Will someone ever insure you after you disclosing these medical conditions you had?
Speaker A:And then the.
Speaker A:On the other hand, some said, go for it, Nick, this book might just save one life.
Speaker A:And that struck a chord with me and realizing that, you know, what is most important, that I can have a corporate job or that if I can save a life of someone who's going through a difficult time.
Speaker A:And after that I decided to press the button.
Speaker A:And I'm happy to say, Will, that it has helped people because we need to have these conversations.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker B:Well, thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you for doing that.
Speaker B:And I think it's really interesting to hear that you were motivated by the desire to help because I was wondering if you ever had the intention to be an executive again, if you wanted to go back into the corporate world.
Speaker B:Having read the book, I didn't really get that sense.
Speaker B:But I think it's right that when you say things like this, people who won't necessarily understand will be like, oh, they don't know what to do with it.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:And I wanted to have a conversation and I wanted basically to ring the alarm bell with a book to highlight that there is a much bigger issue that, that we are living in a world where people are portraying this political and polished beautiful face that they are perhaps not the authentic self, but behind that mask is a completely different person.
Speaker B:And that I think is.
Speaker B:I think you're dead on.
Speaker B:Because we live in this strange era where executives, CEOs, high powered CEOs have kind of become celebrities.
Speaker B:It used to be rock stars and movie stars and athletes.
Speaker B:And now there's probably a handful of celebrity CEOs that people can just rattle off.
Speaker B:Tim Cook from Apple, you know the guys like that, particularly in tech.
Speaker B:But behind the scenes, it's not exactly what it appears.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A: ny Hsieh in in from Zappos in: Speaker A:And while his book was about delivering happiness, we know what a sad outcome and where that went with his mental health issues and addictions.
Speaker A: And sadly we lost Tony in: Speaker A:So here's someone who is making everyone else happy and living the slogan and looking fantastic on the outside.
Speaker A:But behind the scenes the wheels are falling off and how often is it like that?
Speaker B:So maybe, I mean when you came into the world of executives, did were you shocked to discover that.
Speaker B:I know and we'll get into your own story with all of that, but did you start seeing that and were you surprised by it when you first like entered that world?
Speaker A:So I mean people are so good at acting and holding it all together.
Speaker A:And I'm calling it a small A smiling depression in my book.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That concept.
Speaker A:And I was one of them.
Speaker A:And most of my leaders bosses over the years were there also.
Speaker A:They were looking professional, they were looking strong.
Speaker A:But as I started to interview executives for the book and I created a safe space where people could speak up and I had to first do some self disclosure about myself so that they should feel safe to open up as well.
Speaker A:And that's when I was shocked to see and hear how many actually had issues.
Speaker A:And it started with an anonymous survey where I found that actually 33% of the adults were suffering from loneliness.
Speaker A:And then there was just the last box that they could tick if they wanted to have a one on one conversation and be interviewed more about it.
Speaker A:And so many of them ticked that box.
Speaker A:So they saw this opportunity then to have a safe space to speak about the challenges, something which they never had before.
Speaker A:So I met a lot of executives during this time who was pouring their heart out after a while because I disclosed myself first and I gave them a bit of my story and they felt then safe to open up as well.
Speaker B:Well, let's let's get into that story.
Speaker B:And I'm particularly curious to how you ended up in Singapore.
Speaker B:I think it'd be surprising that a man from I think you're from Sweden would end up all the way on the other side of the world.
Speaker B:I've been to Singapore.
Speaker B:I spent a couple of weeks there.
Speaker B: I think it was in: Speaker B:How did you end up so far from home?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A: So in: Speaker A:I joined a university there.
Speaker A:I was 23 years of age, which is a late start.
Speaker A:Before that, I was mainly a construction worker in Sweden.
Speaker A:But suddenly, after motorbike accident, I decided to change the world of work for myself.
Speaker A:I couldn't really work with my body anymore during work, with my back and neck.
Speaker A:And that brought me then to Australia where I wanted to study.
Speaker A:And the first of my studies was just to learn English.
Speaker A:Actually, I couldn't speak much English at the time.
Speaker A:After I completed that course, I realized that I was far away from home.
Speaker A:And I thought while I'm here, I might as well get a degree.
Speaker A:And I got two degrees in Australia.
Speaker A:And then realizing after that that I was as far away as I could from my family and I decided to go halfway.
Speaker A:And that's why about 21 years ago, I ended up in Southeast Asia.
Speaker A:And I lived in Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, Indonesia, basically.
Speaker A:But working in all the countries in.
Speaker B:Southeast Asia was that there were opportunities available to you there.
Speaker B:I mean, I know that Singapore has a pretty thriving downtown business area.
Speaker B:I was surprised to hear that you were working in Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam.
Speaker B:I haven't.
Speaker B:I haven't been there, but I guess there's a big business center there also.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So what I did during my trips back and forth between Sweden and Australia at my study years was halfway was always to change over the flight.
Speaker A:And it was Singapore, Bangkok, Hong Kong and so on.
Speaker A:And I took those opportunities to stop over and build up some connections and build up a network.
Speaker A:So after, when I graduated, I had quite good connections in those cities.
Speaker A:And it was actually Bangkok where I got my first job, working for a big American advertising company at the time, which was my first job.
Speaker A:So I started in advertising, pr, marketing.
Speaker A:We were running the big accounts and so on.
Speaker A:And then the career has just opened up for me.
Speaker A:Later on, I worked in medical services in Vietnam and Indonesia, in general management, basically of hospitals and clinics and so on for the oil and gas companies who are working there, and also in the mining industry.
Speaker A:In the medical services sites, then for these sites.
Speaker B:So maybe you can talk a little bit about what the expat business community is like in that world.
Speaker B:So I imagine you're working for Western companies that are trying to market themselves to the Asian communities.
Speaker A:Yes, that's right.
Speaker A:That's what I done and that's what most of us do.
Speaker A:Perhaps it's an European or American company who want to expand to Asia, who see it as a big opportunity, a future market for growth, and then they need some representatives to set it up.
Speaker A:And at least over the last sort of decades, you know, Asians have had to catch up because they weren't there, they were still developing.
Speaker A:It's now reaching a stage where most of the senior jobs are by locals, but still, if you are an American company, you probably want to have one of your own, one of the people who work in your company and head office to be there to make sure that there's some continuity and consistency between the companies.
Speaker A:So there are still expats out there, but not so many as it used to be.
Speaker A:They have bridged the gap.
Speaker A:So as of now, I'm more running my own sort of consultancy, coaching, training and mentoring business, where I'm working with mainly international companies, the big firms, but helping them with trainings and so on.
Speaker B:Helping them with executive trainings for executives that may be suffering from some of these issues.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it doesn't have to be that it's leadership development, but just to reinforce the importance of speaking up if there is an issue and making sure that they have safe spaces inside the company and outside.
Speaker A:So psychological safety, as you can imagine, if I do a training or a leadership summit, like I've done a few recently for 200 staff, the message will resonate with quite a few of them and maybe 200 people.
Speaker A:You can imagine there'd be 10 or 20 of them probably, who's going through a very difficult right time right now.
Speaker A:So it's about giving them the tools and know how to seek help.
Speaker B:So let's.
Speaker B:Let's paint a picture real quick of what the.
Speaker B:The executive lifestyle was, because again, it's a very insular world.
Speaker B:It's not very glamorous until you speak at a big conference or convention or something like that.
Speaker B:What, what's the sort of.
Speaker B:What's the lifestyle like of people who work in these jobs, maybe in some of these expanding markets?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, if you are an expat, if you're sent by a foreign company, typically you will come keeping your salary from your home country and then you have some allowances, including housing, and you have your insurances and all the visas and all the documentations and so on.
Speaker A:So you have people looking after you, perhaps even an agency who take care of all your needs to show you the housing or help with school and all these kind of things.
Speaker A:Because it can be quite overwhelming if you're not sure where to start.
Speaker A:Even just medical insurance and so on.
Speaker A:You got to have the right thing.
Speaker A:As of now, being an entrepreneur, being my own business owner, I have to source all of these things myself.
Speaker A:So you have to be very, very mindful of making sure that you tick all the boxes.
Speaker A:And just to have visas for all these countries to be able to travel is not so easy.
Speaker A:So I'm spending a lot of time with embassies and with getting the right documentations to be able to work in these countries.
Speaker A:And we have to remember there's different legislations in all markets and every country is different.
Speaker A:And you have to always be up to date.
Speaker A:What's the latest?
Speaker A:Between my own passport and.
Speaker A:And this country, there's been multiple times when, when I just before trip realized audits have changed and then maybe you have to postpone the trip and so on.
Speaker A:So it's a lot of documentation administration that you need to be aware of when you're working in this part of the world.
Speaker B:And so the.
Speaker B:I would imagine that the hours are quite grueling and the pressure is quite intense and competitive in some of these environments.
Speaker A:Yeah, if you're working as, let's say a regional director, being in charge of, you know, let's say 8 to 15 different countries that your company is in, perhaps you're based in Singapore, but then you will travel most of the time during the week you will travel to meet with your teams in the various countries.
Speaker A:And typically someone would travel perhaps four days a week and spend one day in the head office in Singapore with a team then.
Speaker A:So you're always on the road and it's not rare to hear that, you know, executives are only home.
Speaker A:Perhaps, you know, three, four days of the month, of the rest, you're on the road with the teams and often on the weekends, perhaps you need to attend to events in the various markets and team building and trainings and so on with your teams there as well on the ground.
Speaker A:And again, it's different languages, different legislations, laws, so you have to really get into it to understand.
Speaker A:You cannot, for example, expect the, the Vietnam to be like India, it's like night and day.
Speaker B:And so I would Imagine there's a lot of socializing that's involved with that as well.
Speaker B:Team building, you know, after hours at bars or various nice restaurants.
Speaker B:You talk about your own struggle with alcohol in the book particularly.
Speaker B:And that, that seems to me to just to be part of that world.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And alcohol was probably serving me well in my first years, you know, business development, socializing and so on.
Speaker A:And the fact that I did enjoy it, that brought me out more.
Speaker A:And it seemed like the more I was out, the more I was drinking, the more business I got because you were entertaining the clients and so on.
Speaker A:But of course it comes a time when it's not serving you well anymore.
Speaker A:And it was my, my health, my physical and mental health that was going drain, going down the drain.
Speaker A:Because when the pressure is on and you're not getting enough sleep and adding late nights and alcohol to that, eventually you know, you're going to start burning out.
Speaker A:And that's what happened to me and that's what happened to so many.
Speaker B:So let's, let's start there then.
Speaker B:Let's, let's talk about your experiences in Singapore and kind of the time frame leading up to when you had your awakening around some of these issues.
Speaker A: Yeah, so around: Speaker A:I've hit all my targets, got a promotion and big, big paycheck and I had perhaps everything I set out to achieve.
Speaker A:So over 10, 11 years I climbed the corporate ladder and I really, really was achieving everything I could ever dream of.
Speaker A:When I reached that stage, I started to have self doubt.
Speaker A:I questioned myself, was this everything I had worked so hard for?
Speaker A:Was it worth these 10, 11 years of sacrifices to work so hard to get this?
Speaker A:And that's when I eventually actually I resigned from my job without really knowing and understanding why.
Speaker A:But it was, I just realized this is not where I want to be.
Speaker A:That left me very isolated at the time with my feelings and thought and I started to jump from job to job.
Speaker A:And then I started to question my relationship as well.
Speaker A:At home I had a 13 years marriage and I filed for divorce.
Speaker A:We had a son together and my ex wife moved back to Sweden.
Speaker A:And that made me of course even more isolated and lonely.
Speaker A:And then I started to move from country to country and I was not really connected to anyone at the time.
Speaker A:So it was a very lonely place.
Speaker A: n for about three years until: Speaker A: And it was in April: Speaker A:And that's perhaps when I reached My rock bottom, which was the turning point for me.
Speaker B:So you had climbed the corporate ladder in Asia, hyper competitive, lots of travel.
Speaker B:And when you, you reach the, the pinnacle, the peak where you had wanted to be, you discovered that it, it wasn't what you thought it was, it wasn't as satisfying as you expected it would be.
Speaker A:Yeah, you could say that.
Speaker A:You know, also looking at university, I studied very hard at university because I remember the dean of the business school, you know, selling this dream of getting scholarships, getting awards and so on.
Speaker A:And he wanted to compete against Davi University, so what incentives were him and so on.
Speaker A:And I bought into that.
Speaker A:I bought into this success and this became my drive, my purpose, and it became my fuel and my addiction.
Speaker A:So winning became addicted to me.
Speaker A:I brought that mindset with me into the workplace.
Speaker A:And I didn't question for a second, what am I doing?
Speaker A:What should I do?
Speaker A:Because companies are so good these days in giving you targets KPIs and it's quite crystal clear what you need to achieve to get what.
Speaker A:And I just did that.
Speaker A:I didn't think for a second, you know, about anything else.
Speaker A:I just thought, well, this is what I should do.
Speaker A:But I had forgotten about myself.
Speaker A:I did it at a cost of my own well being and those around me.
Speaker A:And that's when I felt cheated having realized, you know, I spent 15 years studying and working, achieving this without really asking twice if this is the right thing to do.
Speaker A:And I realized also that I stepped on a lot of people's toes doing that.
Speaker A:And it came at the cost of other people.
Speaker A:Eventually I was the one to pay the heavier price.
Speaker A:And I had a lot of guilt and shame around having taken that path.
Speaker B:And that I think was the thing.
Speaker B:One of the many things that was the most striking about your book was you talked about the moral dimension, which I didn't expect.
Speaker B:I didn't expect some significantly long sections about making right the things that you had done wrong to other people.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of people would write books about overcoming loneliness, but would avoid the issue of there are people that you have to go apologize to that you stepped on along the way.
Speaker A:Yeah, if we have, you know, been aggressive and perhaps we have in our career, we have been stepping on other people's toes.
Speaker A:That means that we have hurt other people and also we have therefore hurt ourselves.
Speaker A:And in the process of being quite egocentric, in which it can be that journey, if you climbing to be a CEO, then naturally your family have suffered, relatives have suffered, friends have suffered, and walking around with that can be quite painful.
Speaker A:So indeed it is about making that moral inventory and setting things right.
Speaker A:And that's part of every Recovery program.
Speaker A:Every 12 step program will have one of the steps where you basically are making a list of all the people you have harmed in your entire life.
Speaker A:It's typically step four in every program where you with a sponsor then spend weeks, some people spend months to making a master list of all the people you have harmed.
Speaker A:And in my case, I opened a spreadsheet and I had about 80 people on my list.
Speaker A:I had no.
Speaker A:I had other people I know of other people at 400.
Speaker A:And what I did was basically going through photo albums from my, from my school years, children photo albums, and just thinking if I had said something wrong to a child 30, 40 years ago, had I bullied someone and then thinking through the whole family, all my relatives life, even if they're alive or dead, it didn't matter.
Speaker A:You still write down if there was any incidents and have you said something to your neighbor that wasn't right and so on.
Speaker A:So you just really pinpoint all these things and you're walking around with all this baggage of pain.
Speaker A:So the first step there is just to get it down on a paper before you take action on it.
Speaker B:So as you were doing this.
Speaker B:Well, actually, let's go to the story that you tell in the book.
Speaker B:It may seem insignificant, but it was clearly meaningful to you.
Speaker B:A situation with your sister and your son.
Speaker A:Yeah, so in regards to my sister, then we had a lunch one day.
Speaker A:I was over visiting family in Sweden.
Speaker A:And at that time I wasn't so well, it was just before my fall and I was holding things together, but I had a lot of tension, a lot of stress inside me.
Speaker A:And what happened then was my son was about 5 years of age and I was trying to raise him without having too much sugar in his life.
Speaker A:And at this lunch, when I didn't look, my sister gave him a Coca Cola, which was the first Coke in his life, and he drank it.
Speaker A:And as I saw that, I didn't have the calmness in me to just say something like, he doesn't drink that.
Speaker A:I'm sorry, can you have something else?
Speaker A:I wasn't able to strike that conversation because how I was mentally at the time.
Speaker A:So I basically just pulled him off the table and stormed off without saying a word.
Speaker A:And you know, that was in front of my whole family.
Speaker A:And I remember that people tried to speak about it later.
Speaker A:I avoided a conversation completely.
Speaker A:My sister called and sent messages and I didn't respond to anything.
Speaker A:In fact, for about a year, I didn't even talk to her.
Speaker A:It was only at the next sort of family gathering a year later, so on, where at least I just said hello.
Speaker A:And that kind of incident was just hanging there.
Speaker A:And I had many of those with friends, previous colleagues and so on as well, those kind of situation.
Speaker A:There was a lot of unsaid things.
Speaker B:Yeah, you just, you were, you were in a place where you're traveling a lot, probably not getting a whole ton of sleep, not exercising, not eating well, drinking, and the stress has just turned up and you're at this time, were you kind of watching things fall apart a little bit?
Speaker B:Had you experienced some of the, this is not what I thought it was kind of feelings?
Speaker A:I was still.
Speaker A:When that particular incident happened.
Speaker A: I remember it was: Speaker A:But these were the kind of times when things were starting to shake before it completely collapsed around me when I had to resign from the job.
Speaker A:And I was so unwell at the time of resignation that I couldn't even go in and do this face to face.
Speaker A:I didn't even return my laptop or key and go in and have a conversation.
Speaker A:It was a resignation where I basically left the country and sent it over an email.
Speaker A:And because I was so scared of having any conversation, I was not in the stage to have this because I knew they would ask questions and I wasn't ready for it.
Speaker A:So once they had received it, I traveled and met them in, in Singapore later on and had a conversation and returned the items.
Speaker A:But that was two weeks later, basically after my resignation.
Speaker A:So I wasn't in a stage to go in and do a handover or anything at this, at this point of time.
Speaker B:So can you, can you take us into that moment where you've, you've been hard charging for 13, 14 years through school and then climbing the corporate ladder and then you get there and you experience, I don't know, maybe you, I don't know if you'd call it imposter syndrome or something, where suddenly you feel like the ground had just turned liquid under your feet at your work and in your relationship?
Speaker B:And that shift, that seems like a pretty significant mind shift.
Speaker B:Can you, can you take us into that, into that moment of, I guess, profound existential doubt?
Speaker A:Yeah, I can.
Speaker A:And it was small little details, actually, that was the issue because I was doing really well in the job.
Speaker A:I was then a general manager for medical services for a company serving 72 different clients, mainly big American oil and gas clients.
Speaker A:Some of the biggest mines and oil and gas sites in Asia, in the world were our clients.
Speaker A:And I had helped to pick up one massive contract winning this contract for the company.
Speaker A:And I was really there on the business development and sales side because it was a medical company, it was doctors and operation and so on.
Speaker A:And that was not my main responsibility.
Speaker A:But of course it was a complex business and I was pulling all these challenging meetings as well.
Speaker A:And that's when I started to have some self doubt also being around doctors, talking in very, very difficult languages, of course I couldn't understand some of it.
Speaker A:And what happened then also as we were bidding, the pressure was high.
Speaker A:Multimillion dollar contracts.
Speaker A:My strength is not Microsoft Excel and numbers.
Speaker A:And I remember being quite anxious trying to work long hours to understand it.
Speaker A:And the issue is that I didn't speak up, I didn't go to talk to my boss who had had.
Speaker A:I had a very, very good relationship with her.
Speaker A:She, in fact I've hired me to this company twice in my life.
Speaker A:I used to spend a Sunday afternoon for barbecue at her place.
Speaker A:We used to talk about everything in life.
Speaker A:But when it came to this, I didn't go and just knock her door and say hey, I'm a bit uncomfortable with these spreadsheets and I'm a bit wor.
Speaker A:Because it's big numbers and maybe this I could do with some extra help here.
Speaker A:I didn't do that.
Speaker A:I wanted to show that I had all the answers, that I could handle the heat, that I could also do this.
Speaker A:And that's when all the self doubt started to kick in.
Speaker A:And so just with that small little thing, step by step, I start to play my own story.
Speaker A:And this built up in my own head from being a small potential issue with a spreadsheet into catastrophizing thinking that I must have made mistakes, I gonna get fired and so on.
Speaker A:So that's why I thought it's better that I resign from this.
Speaker A:But then being terminated and this was all, you know, lies that I told myself.
Speaker A:So when the resignation came in, they couldn't understand what on earth was going on here.
Speaker A:In fact when it finally happened, they tried to do everything to save me, offering me other jobs and so on.
Speaker B:And you, and you were still like no, because you had felt that, I guess you felt like you had already messed up and you were just waiting to be found out.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Which never happened.
Speaker A:It was only in my mind, in fact, that the big Client.
Speaker A:And the big win that happened at that stage was still with this company as I checked in recently, and this is 10 years ago.
Speaker A:So they had a very good view of what happened to me.
Speaker A:It was just that I suddenly completely disappeared as I couldn't handle it anymore.
Speaker B:So was there a moment after you.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:What happened after you resigned?
Speaker B:Did you feel good about the decision?
Speaker B:I imagine that just as.
Speaker B:As much as that would have made things better on the surface, it probably made things worse inside.
Speaker A:Oh, it made everything worse.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And I became delusional trying to defend the decision more so myself.
Speaker A:Because I disappeared, there was not many people confronting me.
Speaker A:If someone asked something, I said, yeah, I'm starting my own business.
Speaker A:I have many opportunities and so on.
Speaker A:And there was opportunities, but I jumped on some startup projects here and there and burned through my cash very, very quickly to the point where I had to cash in my pension plans and saving plans and everything else until I was quite quickly broke.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:So this was a pretty significant meltdown.
Speaker B:It also affected your family, you said.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely, because I was then in.
Speaker A:In a divorce at this time.
Speaker A:And also my family back in Sweden, my parents and so on could just watch from afar that perhaps something wasn't quite right.
Speaker A:But I did everything to portray that things were fine, but it was difficult to hold it together.
Speaker A:I gained a lot of weight, around 60 pounds.
Speaker A:Pretty quickly I stopped exercising and, yeah, started to drink more, hanging out more in the bars, and that was my way of winding down and trying to escape reality.
Speaker B:And this was.
Speaker B:This was what you called the smiling depression, right?
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:And that went on for then three years.
Speaker B:Almost three years.
Speaker B:Three years in this stage.
Speaker B:So you had resigned from the company and then everything starts falling apart and you're just.
Speaker B:You're still wearing a smile.
Speaker B:I got everything under control.
Speaker B:Don't worry.
Speaker B:I got this.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:And I jumped from some companies where, you know, I was doing okay, at least collecting a salary, able to pay my bills and so on, but it wasn't giving me the fulfillment.
Speaker A:And I was still a bit lost, looking for what else to do.
Speaker B:Did you.
Speaker B:Did you have anyone in your life who was like, hey, Nick, like, I know you and this isn't you.
Speaker B:Like, did you.
Speaker B:I mean, I know that in.
Speaker B:In this world of executives, you know, lie.
Speaker B:Housing is transient.
Speaker B:Friends are transient.
Speaker B:If you have friends at all.
Speaker B:It's hyper competitive.
Speaker B:You're on the other side of the world.
Speaker B:Did you have anyone in your life who was like, trying to tap you on the shoulder and be like, hey, something's going on.
Speaker A:No, because I was.
Speaker A:Kept escaping, kept moving, you know, moving country, moving city, moving job and so on.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And I didn't get that.
Speaker A:In fact, some of the people said, it's good to see that you are, you know, enjoying yourself.
Speaker A:Because before I used to decline parties at that time, you know, I was still quite fit and training and exercising and mainly focused on working hard before, I remember, even in my company.
Speaker A:And my boss said, you know, Nick in one evaluation meeting said, maybe you need to, you know, go out a little bit more with your team and be there a little bit more social.
Speaker A:Because I was the first one to typically leave the party and, you know, look, looking after myself, going to bed because I wanted to go up and exercise the next day.
Speaker A:So I think to everyone, it was just a complete shock when it changed.
Speaker A:And therefore, I think no one also had a perception, and I did my best to hide it, and people didn't really know.
Speaker A:I made new friends at the bar, you know, became local at the bars, and these were new friends, and they probably had similar issues.
Speaker B:So one of the things that you talk about in the book and that you're showing here is about vulnerability.
Speaker B:So maybe you can talk a little bit about.
Speaker B:About that, about the process, perhaps, of learning to open up about these things.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that was not something that came natural to me.
Speaker A:And what I learned is that it doesn't come natural to most of us men especially.
Speaker A:What I have learned, vulnerability, is that women tend to be a little bit better at this in general.
Speaker A:They typically have a few friends, a few close friends, who they're quite open with and vulnerable with.
Speaker A:Many of them perhaps also have open conversations with the parents, especially the mom.
Speaker A:So they're used to having this open line, which we men typically don't.
Speaker A:And we're typically, perhaps there to show that we are strong and that we can hold it together.
Speaker A:And what I also seen and learned in my life and most men I know, is that while we have good friends, and I had great friends, too, we perhaps go and play some sport with them or we watch TV together.
Speaker A:We have a good time together, but we perhaps don't go deep, perhaps we don't explore and express our feelings.
Speaker A:So that's something that I had to learn.
Speaker A:And I didn't do that on purpose.
Speaker A: lly by hitting rock button in: Speaker A:Then when I basically written my will, my testament, and basically cleaned up my act because I didn't think that my body would keep going on whatever Happened then was that my left foot was swollen like an elephant foot.
Speaker A:And I, I couldn't understand why.
Speaker A:It was later diagnosed as a psychosomatic illness.
Speaker A:Basically because for three years I hadn't expressed my feelings.
Speaker A:I pushed it all inside me.
Speaker A:It was the body's way to basically express itself.
Speaker A:And with that, you know, I couldn't hide anymore because I couldn't put on a shoe.
Speaker A:And that's the time when, you know, I was just getting remarried then to my second wife.
Speaker A:And I decided at that time then, you know, I have to say something here.
Speaker A:And even her, despite that, you know, she had been next to me at this time, she didn't understand that it was something wrong with me.
Speaker A:She knew that, you know, I gained some weight, but I was never angry, never bad to her and so on.
Speaker A:So at this stage I was still able to, you know, completely holding it together.
Speaker A:I don't think she would have just married me otherwise.
Speaker A:I was married three weeks when this happened.
Speaker A:But I decided to be honest and open with her and that was the beginning of my vulnerability chapter.
Speaker A:And after that she took me to a doctor and I was vulnerable with the doctor.
Speaker A:Then the same day also we went to a common friend who we knew had gone through something similar a few years before.
Speaker A:And I was vulnerable and open with her as well.
Speaker A:So within 24 hours I'd shared my story with three human beings.
Speaker A:And with that I was basically coming from, with a V shaped recovery from that.
Speaker B:What did you share with those people in that?
Speaker B:In that?
Speaker B:What details did you provide them?
Speaker B:How did you paint the picture for them?
Speaker A:Well, I basically shared that alcohol had become a problem, that I was drinking too much and I was hiding it even from my new wife.
Speaker A:She didn't know.
Speaker A:She knew I like to drink and.
Speaker A:But I always just kept perhaps two, three beers in the fridge.
Speaker A:And that's what I drank in front of her.
Speaker A:But when I was in my office working and so on, I would have more drinks in there and I would hide it and drinking.
Speaker A:And I didn't drink, so I was intoxicated so that really she could notice it.
Speaker A:It was more to medicate myself around the clock.
Speaker A:And therefore it went.
Speaker A:Basically I noticed my high consumption, so I had to be honest with that and seeking help for my health around that.
Speaker A:And alcohol is really bad when it comes to mental health.
Speaker A:You get all that anxiety and so on.
Speaker A:So I needed that to medicate myself, to keep myself basically from all the anxiety and panic attacks that happened when I didn't drink.
Speaker A:So that was the first I had to be honest and own up to.
Speaker A:And that then brought me to the 12 step program.
Speaker A:And since I went in there, I remember the day was when I got professional help, also from a doctor.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:As I walked out of that meeting, I haven't had a drink since.
Speaker B:Well, praise God for that.
Speaker B:So I guess another question I have is your family.
Speaker B:So you mentioned your mother briefly in the book.
Speaker B:Were they looking at you like something's not right?
Speaker B:Or I guess the distance being so far away in Sweden, they were able to see only what you showed them?
Speaker A:Yeah, I remember that most of the time I was quite conscious what I shared on social media and quite selective.
Speaker A:But I can also remember there was one time I was out quite late watching some football game on tv, midnight or whatever, having too many drinks.
Speaker A:And I think I shared one picture on social media.
Speaker A:And I remember my mom being sad and replied, you know, Nick, you're not looking well.
Speaker A:Are you turning alcoholic?
Speaker A:I remember her comments and of course I declined that and I deleted that from social media.
Speaker A:But I think that was the only time when sort of I was demonstrating a bad view.
Speaker A:When I was coming home to visit, I would normally behave quite well.
Speaker A:I knew that I have to keep myself in order.
Speaker A:But sometimes even then, perhaps I had too many drinks.
Speaker A:And I remember, you know, hiding the drinks, hiding the empty cans and trying to transport that out the back door so they shouldn't see and so on how much I was drinking and consuming at the time.
Speaker A:But surely from time to time they understood that something is not right.
Speaker B:Now, from your time in this executive world, how many, what, what percentage of people would you say men and women at that high level are struggling with situations similar to yours?
Speaker A:Well, and estimates that I have from people running this, like rehabs and so on in asia is about 10 to 20%.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:So 1 to 10, 1 to 10, 1.
Speaker B:One to five people who are in these high powered, you know, regional directors are, are struggling with similar situations.
Speaker B:That's a, that's a pretty shocking statistic.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I think the, the, the gray zone is much bigger.
Speaker A:So if you're talking about people who are clinically alcoholics or addicts or drug addicts and so on, if that's 10, 20% of people in hype roles in Asia, let's say, then the gray zone is perhaps another 30, 40%, you know, people who are struggling but have not really fallen over yet.
Speaker B:So just to maybe provide a bit of a window what, what sort of salaries are we talking about?
Speaker B:Because obviously there's very strong incentives in situations like this for people to, to cover this up.
Speaker B:And it's not, they're not.
Speaker B:This is not an everyday kind of job.
Speaker B:So you don't have to disclose how much you were making, of course, unless you want to.
Speaker B:But the, the kind of money that people in this world are making and the incentives that they have to keep this going.
Speaker B:What sort of salaries are we talking about?
Speaker A:Around 20 to 30,000 US dollars a month salaries.
Speaker A:And if you are coming out first, most likely also your housing and all the be cared for.
Speaker A:That's the kind of salaries that are quite common then.
Speaker A:Typically these days though, a lot of it is localized, which means that it's a lot, lot, lot less than that and you have to provide your own housing and so on.
Speaker A:But if you're just sent out on a new assignment, that's typically what it is.
Speaker A:But many times they have this on a rotation because they send you out to get the experience.
Speaker A:And it has a limit of three or five years or something like that.
Speaker B:But at that point maybe you transition to a new job in the region or a new company.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:And that's why the packages are lower typically if you get a local assignment instead.
Speaker B: od, I think you said, between: Speaker B:And you said three weeks into the marriage is when you finally broke.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:And it was a blessing that I did, and it was a blessing that she listened to me with empathy and she didn't judge me.
Speaker A:She could have just, you know, leave me right then.
Speaker A:It could have been a very short marriage.
Speaker A:But I'm blessed that she didn't.
Speaker A:And with that, you know, it's been a wonderful journey and we have a wonderful relationship as well as a result of this.
Speaker A:The fact that we can be honest and open with ourselves.
Speaker A:I didn't have that in my first relationship and that's on me.
Speaker A:I wasn't ready to be myself and to be honest and to be open.
Speaker A:So that really set the scene for what was to come.
Speaker B:And if I understand Swedish culture, northern European culture, it's not particularly emotionally expressive.
Speaker B:Americans can be very expressive Italians, but Swedes in general I don't think of as like the most emotionally open people.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And we didn't discuss feelings and emotions in our family.
Speaker A:So that's something I have to learn as an adult.
Speaker A:And it's something that now with my son, who's 16 years of age, we have a very good relationship.
Speaker A:He lives in Sweden, but he come and visit me in Asia at least once a year.
Speaker A:And I'm spending about two months of the Swedish summer working from Sweden when I'm spending a lot of time with him and we are talking about feelings and emotions.
Speaker A:And I have a very strong and open relationship because I don't want him to grow up and being a closed book like I was.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker B:Maybe you can talk a little bit.
Speaker B:I want to talk about what happened, you know, as you were.
Speaker B:As you were in recovery and as you began to think about writing your book.
Speaker B:But maybe you can talk a little bit about the process of rebuilding your relationship with your son, which I guess is roughly a 10 year process at this point.
Speaker A:Yes, exactly.
Speaker A:And I had to of course add him to the list of people to make amends to as well as my ex wife.
Speaker A:And I got support with this and I spoke through with a sponsor how to do it in the right way and so on.
Speaker A:And because he was little at the time, you know, he was five, six years old when I separated and then eight, nine later on.
Speaker A:So it was more about making living amends for him and being there, showing up and doing it in the right way.
Speaker A:Before I couldn't care for myself, so I couldn't care for him either.
Speaker A:So I'm grateful that my ex wife filled that gap and did a wonderful job at the time relocating back to Sweden after she herself had been an expat in Asia for some years, working for the big American companies out there.
Speaker A:It must have been a hard transition for her, but she supported and managed to land him in a good school in Sweden and so on.
Speaker A:So then when I realized all of this, that I was falling short and I had to make amends, I actually had an open conversation with my dad about this and we were able to together support because at that time they were still living with my ex wife's parents because it was difficult to find an apartment in Sweden.
Speaker A:But thanks to my father's connection and some financial support, we were able to get them an apartment in Sweden where they could live.
Speaker A:So that was one way of, you know, making some amends for whatever happened.
Speaker A:And then also later on, I've been quite open and honest with my son.
Speaker A:He's now 16 to share about the struggle I had and what I went through and what I learned from it.
Speaker A:And I also took some external professional help at the time because living afar, I couldn't connect with him.
Speaker A:When he was 8, 9 years old, it was very difficult to have a call with him and get to know him.
Speaker A:So I actually went to see a child psychologist in Singapore.
Speaker A:He was quite surprised about my request to get help with this, but she really helped me to understand how can I have better, deeper conversations with him.
Speaker A:And she asked for example me to ask my ex wife to get a list of all his friends and a description of them, a list of all his subjects in school and the name of the teachers.
Speaker A:And she said can you ask your ex wife for a copy of the schedule at his school and so on.
Speaker A:So I got all of that so I could at least start study this.
Speaker A:And when I had calls with him over the phone or over Skype as I used at the time, then at least I knew a little bit of information.
Speaker A:I could ask him some questions about his teachers, his subjects, I could ask him about some of his friends and at least I demonstrated, I made an attempt to try to understand him.
Speaker A:So instead of having a 30 second call, at least I was able to hold a two minute conversation.
Speaker A:But still I remember falling short about this and I remember asking for more help of the psychologist and that's when she asked, please map out and understand what is it he loved to do?
Speaker A:Ask again your ex wife also, what does his days look like?
Speaker A:What does he do when he's really happy?
Speaker A:And as most teenage kids then, he loved multiplayer gaming, online gaming.
Speaker A:And that's when the psychology said, well you have to get into that then.
Speaker A:So what I did, I went out to get myself a gaming computer.
Speaker A:I got a headset and a webcam for me and for my son.
Speaker A:I went over to Sweden and set all this up and I started to learn how to play his games, the ones he wanted to play.
Speaker A:I remember spending time on YouTube, how to really play it and we started to play and that's when we kept this up on every Saturday afternoon for three hours for many years.
Speaker A:And that's when we really, really built a really strong connection because like me being an introvert, he's also an introvert, very shy and we never had any deep conversations.
Speaker A:But as we spent hours in the games and he showed me around his world, he kept building during the week and during the weekend, he was looking forward to this moment to show me around, introduce me to everything in the game.
Speaker A:And then I was in his world on his terms and that built some connection that is really, really strong.
Speaker A:So if I'm looking at having played over a few years, it must have been 500 hours together we played.
Speaker A:So I spent 500 hours inside his world.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:I think there's a lesson for many fathers there that's a genuine commitment of time and investment to go into his world, to build more than just rebuild a bridge, but build an enduring relationship, I imagine.
Speaker B:And now he spends.
Speaker B:You said you spend two months a year in Sweden and then he comes to visit you in Singapore.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker A:And similar mindset and thinking like around the gaming.
Speaker A:He still games, but he probably don't want me in the games anymore as a teenager.
Speaker A:He has his own friends now, but I've been looking at the same thing and keep exploring what are the hobbies he like and where do we have overlaps?
Speaker A:Where can we do together?
Speaker A:And I like cycling.
Speaker A:He likes cycling, so I got him a bicycle in Sweden.
Speaker A:So we actually together go out cycling quite a lot when we are in Sweden.
Speaker A:He also like road trips, travel in a car.
Speaker A:And what I learned for us men is that the best conversations are not when we're facing each other eye to eye.
Speaker A:The best conversation are when we're doing something side by side.
Speaker A:It can be walking, cycling, or driving a car together.
Speaker A:Because then you can have time to think and time to respond without feeling that someone is looking straight in the eyes.
Speaker A:And I'm now studying to become a psychotherapist and counselor.
Speaker A:And a big part of how to do that job, I found out, is also how you set up the room.
Speaker A:And just like that, you should sit side by side and not looking each other in the eyes.
Speaker A:So now I can understand why those activities seem to work best.
Speaker A:So I always let him pick where he wants to go in Europe every summer, he can pick one destination and then he can spend time to look up what are the places he want to see, where does he want to stay.
Speaker A:And then basically based on that, we do a road trip, which then feels for him that he's in charge.
Speaker A:It's him who picked where he wants to go.
Speaker A:And we're going together there to explore things on his terms.
Speaker A:And that again, keeps building a relationship.
Speaker A:He's now 16 and he's happy to do it.
Speaker A:He committed already.
Speaker A:We're going to go somewhere, to Luxembourg in July, and he's looking forward to it.
Speaker A:So rather than me pushing my agenda and inviting him to come, giving him a chance to Reject it.
Speaker A:It's him who's in charge, basically.
Speaker B:This is great.
Speaker B:I have so many questions.
Speaker B:So I guess what are you passing down to your son about high achievement now?
Speaker B:Because I imagine having sailed to the.
Speaker B:Climbed to the heights and been so deeply disillusioned in so many ways, and yet also knowing that achievement is the path to many forms of freedom.
Speaker B:What sort of lessons are you passing down to him now about as he begins to look into having his own career?
Speaker A:Yeah, that's an open conversation that I have with him.
Speaker A:And also because it very much involves my ex wife, we also have these conversations.
Speaker A:And since I made amends with her, we have probably a better relationship now than we ever had than when we were married.
Speaker A:And we have faced some challenges.
Speaker A:We both wanted to have him in a good international school in Sweden where he could learn English.
Speaker A:And he was in one until two years ago.
Speaker A:But then it was a lot of incidents in the school.
Speaker A:There were kids who brought in drugs, there was someone lighting a fire, sometimes there was knives in school.
Speaker A:And then I remember one incident when I spoke to him over the phone and at this time the teacher had called and the kids had been in the shop and they'd been stealing things.
Speaker A:And that's when I spoke with him and I asked him about this incident and he said, well, if I also steal, then the risk of the police catching me, but if I don't steal, my friends would bully me and maybe hit me.
Speaker A:So he was very confused about what to do with this and he asked me for advice and I just asked the question back, what can you do?
Speaker A:What options do you have?
Speaker A:So I acted as a coach and didn't judge him, didn't get angry with him, I just asked him to think about it.
Speaker A:And we kept having this dialogue back and forth for quite some time where he was thinking, coming up with suggestions, solutions, and it was his own proposal and suggestion to then change school to another city, another school, a local school.
Speaker A:And I spoke with my ex wife about this and she felt a bit sad, but we in the end supported it.
Speaker A:And before we made this decision, we even hired a coach for him, a neutral source which he could speak with about this decision, this massive decision of changing school so that he really, really felt empowered that he was ready to do this.
Speaker A:He was 14 years at that time.
Speaker A:And we made it clear, both my ex wife and I, that we will support him and back him.
Speaker A:And we wanted him to make the best decision for himself so he knew what he was going through and we didn't give him any advice, but let him make the decision.
Speaker A:I just said, I also changed school when I was 14 and it was difficult.
Speaker A:This is what happened to me.
Speaker A:I felt a bit lonely when I started.
Speaker A:I felt a bit isolated, I felt a bit left out and so on.
Speaker A:So we just had a very open conversation about it all.
Speaker A:And in the end, yeah, he was feeling lonely when he just started his new school and we spoke about the feelings of that and that he would get used to it and coached him on the side.
Speaker A:What can he do?
Speaker A:Are there a few new people he can start to see?
Speaker A:And so on.
Speaker A:And he got over that phase and now at least the relationship again got stronger because we didn't push our agenda of being proud parents of him being in a good international school as opposed to his wish of being in a school where he could feel safe.
Speaker B:I'm just.
Speaker B:I'm really struck by the difference that you're articulating between the man you were when you were having your crisis and before, even.
Speaker B: Even before: Speaker B:What is it, what is it like reflecting on the two different versions of yourself that you've been.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So as I started this journey of being open and vulnerable, I apply that to everything in my life.
Speaker A:And that's also with parenting.
Speaker A:I'm not the one to push any buttons to tell a force teenager what to do.
Speaker A:He will just resent me then.
Speaker A:So I always, when I face a challenge, take a step back and think, who can help us with this conversation?
Speaker A:As in the case of getting his own coach, for him to have these conversations, because I knew this could have been the thing for life, that he would have resented us for forcing him to remain in the school where there's trouble.
Speaker A:That would never have been a good thing.
Speaker A:But I thought, how are we going to make this shift?
Speaker A:Was the most important thing.
Speaker A:And I apply that to everything in my life, including my sport of tr.
Speaker A:Triathlon.
Speaker A:I did triathlon before.
Speaker A:So then I asked, okay, who can help me to enjoy triathlon more and how can I be better at triathlon?
Speaker A:Well, get a coach.
Speaker A:So that's what I have in that area.
Speaker A:And I read a book by author Andy Lopata who says, just ask.
Speaker A:That's the book.
Speaker A:And that's how I apply to every situation in my life these days.
Speaker A:Because that's not what I did.
Speaker A:I now always just ask.
Speaker B:So before you were.
Speaker B:You just, you just acted and now you ask?
Speaker A:Yeah, that's the big shift.
Speaker A:That's the big Shift.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So as you're going through.
Speaker B: gh your collapse leading into: Speaker B: rock bottom and now we're in: Speaker B:So talk a little bit about climbing up out of that, out of that ditch that you had, you had fallen into.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So first I recovered physically and mentally reasonably quickly and just, you know, removing the alcohol and getting back into exercise and eating well.
Speaker A:But in two, three months, I was really, really good.
Speaker A:I remember I signed up and did a half marathon after about three months feeling great, and I then signed up for full Ironman for the year after which I trained for and.
Speaker A:And then I got new healthy friends and so on and really a positive spin.
Speaker A:So my first year was really focusing on recovery myself.
Speaker A:And then what happened after one year is when I lost a friend of mine in Singapore to suicide.
Speaker A:And that was the game changer again because until then I lived in this bubble where, you know, I.
Speaker A:Some people knew I had gone through a difficult time.
Speaker A:But when I lost my friend to suicide, I decided to take action and I called up the suicide prevention agency called SOS Samaritans in Singapore.
Speaker A:I became a volunteer and a fundraiser.
Speaker A:And that's the day when I also made my story public.
Speaker A:I made a LinkedIn video that went viral all around the world where I shared about my struggle and where I was and that I overcome it by then because I was one year in and I started to feel safe talking about it.
Speaker B:So you, so you actually, you did a form of confession, really, where you were kind of revealing this is what was going on in my life, this was happening.
Speaker B:And I imagine that resonated with quite a few people.
Speaker A:Yes, it did.
Speaker A:And it was a shock to the community.
Speaker A:Having lost our dear friend Simon to suicide and someone who seemed to have it all together.
Speaker A:In fact, he'd just been to Mount Everest Base Camp.
Speaker A:One of his dreams was to go there and he had a girlfriend he loved.
Speaker A:Everything was looking great on the outside.
Speaker A:There was no one of us and no one of his family had any idea that he was going through a difficult time.
Speaker A:It didn't, certainly didn't show.
Speaker A:While at least on me on the outside, you can see I gained a lot of weight, I looked unhealthy.
Speaker A:But in the case of Simon, he's perfect.
Speaker A:He had that perfect, beautiful smile and healthy body on the outside.
Speaker A:So it was clearly something going on.
Speaker A:And then when we Lost him then this was the, the calling for me to really speak up.
Speaker A:And while I was in a shock, I let my fences down and I started to communicate clearly on social media, which I might never have done otherwise.
Speaker A:This might have been a secret if we hadn't lost Simon.
Speaker B:What were you saying in the video?
Speaker A:I basically shared about the cause for Simon and that I set up a fund and that I wanted to basically remove the stigma about discussing loneliness and the feelings around that and also that we need to have more open and vulnerable and open conversations.
Speaker A:That was basically as much as I shared.
Speaker A:And donations started to pour into this charity and with that also I was the next 24 hours on live TV, radio, newspaper articles and so on.
Speaker A:And they all said the same thing.
Speaker A:We wanted to run this kind of story for years, years.
Speaker A:All the journalists said, but no one is able to step forward and talking about it being themselves.
Speaker A:Everyone can do it anonymously, but it doesn't make any news.
Speaker A:So the fact that they had someone who was willing to talk on this topic made the whole difference to them.
Speaker A:And with that then I actually received the biggest mental health related media exposures in Singapore's history.
Speaker A:A business newspaper, writing a four pages feature on the story of Simon, my story, and so on.
Speaker A:And this was then groundbreaking for this country.
Speaker B:I imagine that was the moment where you're like, well, I guess I'm committed to this path now.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And that's when the idea of the book came up and everyone said, you must put this in the book.
Speaker A:And it was reasonably easy then because also publishers starting to call and say, you know, we need something on this.
Speaker A:So, so it was very, very easy.
Speaker A:It was an Australian publisher especially who really wanted to cover this topic.
Speaker B:So let's talk a little bit about the book now.
Speaker B:Actually, let's talk about the book is Executive Loneliness.
Speaker B:Let's unpack the word loneliness real quick because it wouldn't necessarily be obvious.
Speaker B:I mean you can think about, you can imagine why someone might be lonely, but that wouldn't be a title that people would think that executives are experiencing that particular form.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:I was looking around what to call the book and I, you know, there's the saying it's lonely at the top.
Speaker A:And perhaps that's talking about just the boss.
Speaker A:Perhaps if it's lonely at the top, that's the CEO.
Speaker A:And as I start to do research, I realize it's yes, it's lonely at the top to be a CEO, but it's also through the whole organization being an executive in those job, it doesn't have to be CEO.
Speaker A:You can be in any, you can be senior manager or manager in the company.
Speaker A:Being an executive then.
Speaker A:And you can have, have feelings of isolation.
Speaker A:If you don't have someone who you feel safe to talk to, someone at your level perhaps, or if you don't have anyone internally, a mentor or someone that you can have conversations about your struggle and stress and so on, then you can definitely feel lonely and isolated.
Speaker B:In the workplace, particularly if you're, if you're keeping some amount of insecurity in your performance or something that you don't know, that becomes, in your experience that was very isolating, is that you felt out of your depth.
Speaker B:You weren't actually, but you felt out of your depth.
Speaker B:And that led to a cascading kind of spiral when, as you yourself said, if you had just spoken up to your boss, which probably would have been a pretty easy conversation, but that isolation kicked in.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:And as I then started to talk on this topic, you know, and doing surveys, interviews for the book, I was quite shocked with the findings.
Speaker A:I mean, for a start then over 30% were suffering from loneliness.
Speaker A:And then the issue on top of that was that 84% of them wouldn't feel comfortable to talk about anything related to mental health with their boss or with their company.
Speaker A:So that means that they are, you know, perhaps suffering and they are not talking to the company.
Speaker A:If you then add on top of this that 75% were not ready to seek professional help, that really means that you are suffering in isolation.
Speaker B:And so let's talk a little bit about the structure of the book, what some of the things are in it.
Speaker B:Just maybe just run through how you put the whole thing together.
Speaker A:Yeah, so I was blessed in the sense that I had an alcohol problem because that gave me this wonderful 12 step program which has been around for 100 years and helped millions of people.
Speaker A:It was a winning formula there that helped me.
Speaker A:And, and as I said, it only took me one meeting to go in there, spend one hour around people who've gone through this before to walk out of there never needing to have an alcoholic drink again.
Speaker A:That is in itself a miracle.
Speaker A:Then it is a program that is not a religious program, it's a spiritual program.
Speaker A:So that means that that program, basically everyone can have a God of their own understanding to make it simple, to make it inclusive for everyone.
Speaker A:But the fact that it's built on pillars and spirituality, which was something that I had not been exposed to, was what I needed at the time, that it Was not only up to me, I could surrender to a power greater than myself, which was a new concept for me.
Speaker A:So that was the foundation then that I Learned for the 12 STEP program.
Speaker A:And then I realized there must be so many other people out there who have never been exposed to this.
Speaker A:Many people have declined.
Speaker A:Perhaps a God or a power greater than ourselves these days.
Speaker A:And that's what I thought is needed.
Speaker A:So the book in itself are the steps that you get into the Recovery 12 step recovery program, but without the addiction.
Speaker A:So not everyone.
Speaker A:You shouldn't have to be an alcoholic or drug addict or a social media addiction in order to fall into these recovery programs in order to get some help.
Speaker A:So that's why the book is written for anybody who don't have an addiction but still want to look at themselves or perhaps have some feelings of anxiety or loneliness in their life and especially in the workplace.
Speaker B:And so what are some of the recommendations for those of us who haven't been through any of the steps?
Speaker A:Yeah, so the first step there is really taking stock.
Speaker A:So as I shared, I had to do that moral inventory and also list of all the people I had harmed, so on, and all the pain points in life and document that.
Speaker A:So just like if you are a store owner, you would do, you know, an audit or stock take once a year, once a quarter or some once a day would counter stock.
Speaker A:How often do we do that with ourselves?
Speaker A:How often do we do this?
Speaker A:An honest audit of ourselves?
Speaker A:And that is really the.
Speaker A:That stood out.
Speaker A:It was the first time in my life I was asked to do that.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That, therefore is the step one in my book.
Speaker B:And then we'll just run through it real quick.
Speaker B:I've got it here in front of me.
Speaker B:So what was that like for you?
Speaker B:Actually, you mentioned that, I think you wrote in the book that you hadn't really had a conception of God or a higher power up until that point.
Speaker B:And suddenly you were introduced to this notion of you are bound by this kind of higher moral law that you violated that you had been ignoring for a long time.
Speaker B:Him.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was that kind of campus, you know, or North Star that I needed at the time.
Speaker A:Because many times in the corporate world, it's all about us, me.
Speaker A:You know, it's too much of the ego.
Speaker A:We perhaps elbow our way to the top.
Speaker A:We step on people's toe is me, me, me.
Speaker A:Because if you don't play the game, then perhaps someone else will take the promotions, you know, so therefore it can be a selfish journey.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But that is not serving you well for your mental health though.
Speaker A:And just to accept that there's a power greater than myself out there is something that perhaps many in the corporate world have forgotten.
Speaker A:And we need to be reminded about this, that we are part of something bigger.
Speaker A:And if we're stepping on someone's toes, we're also stepping on our own toes.
Speaker A:And just then, you know, in this process, it sort of humbles us, right.
Speaker A:And it connects us with the universe, therefore connect us with our fellow souls.
Speaker A:So it's a lot of that work that is happening in a recovery program.
Speaker A:And that's the fifth step and the last step in my book, which is really finding your purpose.
Speaker A:And with finding your purpose is not only the organizational purpose, not only the targets and KPIs that your company is so good to give you as your roadmap there.
Speaker A:You also need other purposes in your life and at least being open to that.
Speaker A:It's not you who is the center of the universe, which is the starting point here.
Speaker B:I think the thing that's this, this picture that's getting painted of this 10 year journey that you've been on essentially is it looks to me as a man who lived a, an amoral life, like you weren't immoral.
Speaker B:It doesn't sound like you were stealing or doing anything.
Speaker B:You were playing within the rules of the game in the corporate world, which, the corporate world, which can be quite ruthless, but that's the rules of the game that everyone agrees to.
Speaker B:And it's sort of an amoral way of being.
Speaker B:And it seems to me that over the past decade you've learned a more moral way of being.
Speaker B:Like, you know that there's right and wrong and you're accountable for the right and the wrong things that you've done.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:And that's something that I bring with me now in most of my conversations, most of my decisions I need to make in the office.
Speaker A:There always will be a gray zone which way to take here.
Speaker A:But I'm now trying to take back a step and looking at this from what I learned and see which is the right path here.
Speaker A:And many times we can actually have open, honest conversations with our business partners as bosses about it and say, I know that we're supposed to go this way, but I morally feel that this is not quite right.
Speaker A:This is what I feel inside me and I think that this would be a more the other path and we can have conversations.
Speaker A:And I had such a conversation last night with one of my business partners and I felt great Afterwards, the fact that I had flagged that, I didn't feel that this path that we're on in regards to this decision is quite right.
Speaker B: that was in your life around: Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker B:Maybe your ex wife could be an example or a friend or your family members that they've reflected to you.
Speaker B:You're not the same guy you were a decade ago.
Speaker B:Because I'm hearing it as you describe it.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's definitely people who've seen the change, who are motivated by the change.
Speaker A:And also my friends from back home in Sweden who remember me as a construction worker, you know, and some of them are still in the same role, working in construction.
Speaker A:So they've seen the growth and they also seen the humility in me, the fact that I'm the one who's staying in touch with them.
Speaker A:I go and see them for a coffee and a lunch every summer when I'm back in Sweden.
Speaker A:I don't judge them, but during the years when I was chasing the corporate ladder and the game, then they wouldn't see me when I was home.
Speaker A:You know, I would be home just a few days and.
Speaker A:And rushing on to the next mission.
Speaker A:So I was quiet.
Speaker A:So those were.
Speaker A:Some of those friends were on my MEND list.
Speaker A:And the amendment was simply that, I'm sorry I was not in touch for 10 years.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I was too focused on growing myself.
Speaker A:And I'm sorry that I rejected and neglected our relationship.
Speaker A:And most of them have accepted that.
Speaker A:And they will say, oh, I'm sorry too.
Speaker A:I should have been in touch.
Speaker A:I didn't also.
Speaker A:So, you know, I'm the one who now waking up these relationships and the friends I know back home who go for a run, I reach out one or two months before saying, I'm going to be in Sweden in July.
Speaker A:Should we stick in a morning when we go for a run or a walk together?
Speaker A:And they're grateful for that.
Speaker A:So I just focus on the positivity and revaking all these relationships, even going 30, 40 years back.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So to help.
Speaker B:To help sort of crystallize the picture a little bit.
Speaker B:Ten years ago, when you would wake up in the morning, like, where were you at when you woke up in the morning?
Speaker B:Like mentally, emotionally, spiritually, you.
Speaker B:First thing you get up, maybe you're hungover, whatever.
Speaker B:What was.
Speaker B:What were those early minutes of waking like?
Speaker B:And then maybe kind of what are they like now?
Speaker B:Which is probably more your state of being currently.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:In the beginning I was holding it together, disinclining myself quite firmly.
Speaker A:You know, I would be very strict.
Speaker A:I will only have three beers after work.
Speaker A:I will back.
Speaker A:I will be bed at 9:00 at night so I can be up at 5:00am to do my exercise the next day.
Speaker A:As a high achiever, I had to really look after myself and I knew that.
Speaker A:But mentally that meant I just kept adding pressure, pressure, pressure.
Speaker A:And it was when I then left the job where the wheels really fell off and then I didn't have a job to go to.
Speaker A:And then step by step the drinking took over.
Speaker A:So one year I was still able to do the exercise.
Speaker A:Perhaps I canceled some workouts and stepped in a little bit, but I was still operating at the high level.
Speaker A: But I remember in: Speaker A:I did that in Australia.
Speaker A:And I remember cramping in the ocean when I swam because I had not, not been too healthy.
Speaker A:And that's when I thought, well, I could drown here so I, I better stop this sport by now.
Speaker A: And that's when in: Speaker A:That's when drinking took over and with that I lost it.
Speaker A:So yes, in the end I, I was a morning drinker as well.
Speaker A:I needed to medicate myself in the last months just to be able to get on with the day.
Speaker A:So that's very different from today.
Speaker A:It's now early morning here in, I'm in Thailand today where my back office is and I'm going out for a bike ride in about 30 minutes here with a group of people.
Speaker A:So I get my physical health and I get my social health by going out with a group and I, I feel good.
Speaker A:There's definitely no hangover here today.
Speaker B:And so as you've gone through this shift and this man that you've become, have you sparked curiosity in those around you, those you know, who are curious, like what, what do you have?
Speaker B:Because maybe I want some of what you've got.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, absolutely, yes.
Speaker A:And I'm writing my second book on this now and that's what I'm doing also as a coach and as a speaker, a keynote speaker and in workshops and trainings, going out to share my story.
Speaker A:Because many in the corporate world are chasing just that, they're chasing the the KPIs, the targets, the promotion.
Speaker A:So it's a wake up call for everybody to look after themselves.
Speaker A:And while alcohol was perhaps the biggest poison in my life, most executives, when I come in and talk to them, have their own addictions.
Speaker A:It can be everything From Netflix to TikTok to overeating or sugar addiction or others.
Speaker A:And it's about them hearing my story and looking at themselves and being honest with themselves and going on the journey of facing that and getting the help they need.
Speaker B:And so maybe you can describe a little bit about the work that you do.
Speaker B:I believe your organization is esg, some of the, some of the coaching work and some of the consulting work you do around the world now.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So as a coach I work on one on one with executives on then holistic health, which is not only the professional target, but also looking after themselves.
Speaker A:So one on one coach.
Speaker A:But then I come in with teams and just did a leadership summit in the last couple of weeks for quite some companies.
Speaker A:So one or 200 team members for a full day where I'm sharing my story first so that they should feel that I've been open, I've been vulnerable.
Speaker A:And then I take them through the steps, basically a simulation in the room where first they look at, you know, do they have any bad habits, any.
Speaker A:Anything that is serving them bad.
Speaker A:So the bit under that taking stock, is it something that they need to surrender to?
Speaker A:And actually everyone will have, most will have something.
Speaker A:Especially as I mentioned, social media is quite a big one and people will say, I used to read a book one hour every night.
Speaker A:But now as you're saying this, I realize I spend that one hour on TikTok instead or on net watching Netflix.
Speaker A:So it's a wake up call for everyone to then pinpoint that.
Speaker A:And then I take them through the steps by, you know, helping them set goals not only professionally, but about personal goals, also relationship goals, so they have a more balanced life.
Speaker A:So in a nutshell, it's really about holistic leadership where you also are looking after yourself and not just the company purpose.
Speaker B:I imagine it's been quite rewarding to see transformations in your clients.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:And back to where we also started, Will, I said that I went on a mission to see you.
Speaker A:If I can help someone to get out of the thoughts of suicide.
Speaker A:And just the fact that I have plenty of these.
Speaker A: And my best Christmas gift in: Speaker A:Because the help that I given him, and I only share that because it's really all that is needed.
Speaker A:Sometimes we just need to be there to listen to someone and make someone feel safe and give them the opportunity to share something.
Speaker A:Because that's when the pattern is broken at perhaps that final hour for someone when they are considering going.
Speaker A:And then what's on the mind?
Speaker A:Is there someone who I feel safe enough about to break this news, or is there someone I can talk to?
Speaker A:And if we can be more of these people who are available for them, then we can do wonders for each other.
Speaker B:And so as you look back over the course of the past 10 or 15 years, do you feel a sense of the hand of Providence moving, that you were.
Speaker B:All these things were happening in your life.
Speaker B:You went through this decline and recovery, and then you sort of spontaneously emerged onto the public stage talking about these things, and you found there was more need.
Speaker B:And you've built this up and blessed so many people.
Speaker B:Do you feel that there was a story being told with your life that perhaps was larger than you?
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:I think that this is definitely my.
Speaker A:My life purpose.
Speaker A:You know, that's.
Speaker A:This was the journey I was going to go on.
Speaker A:And it's been miracles along the way.
Speaker A:And I call it that I have a life now beyond my wildest dreams.
Speaker A:And what I mean with that is that the things I could picture before, perhaps sports cars and penthouses or things deadly things, those are no longer on my list now.
Speaker A:It is about connections, honesty, and being that person and feeling connected.
Speaker A:This is things that don't come easy to me because being indeed from Sweden, where we don't talk about feelings and emotions and so on, and also being an introvert and growing up in a family where we didn't talk on these things, to be able to feel fully connected these days, that's something that I couldn't picture and that's worth more than anything.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Leading all of these executives to truth and leading your family and leading your son and patching all these things up.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:What an incredible story to tell of transformation and redemption.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Thank you, Will.
Speaker A:And it's great to talk to you about it today.
Speaker A:Great to share this, and I hope it's some hope in this for everyone, no matter where they are in their life, if they're going through a challenging time, as we said, it's a purpose for it.
Speaker A:And that is to go through this and learn from it and being as open and vulnerable as we possibly can about it.
Speaker B:Well, thank you so much.
Speaker B:Nick, this is, this is a very moving story for me to hear there.
Speaker B:I wish that there were more men that completed the journey successfully as you have.
Speaker B:And it's always so inspiring to hear.
Speaker B:It mirrors a lot of my own story.
Speaker B:So thank you very much.
Speaker A:Thank you for having this very important conversation.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker B:So the book is Executive Loneliness.
Speaker B:Where would you like to send people to find out more about you and what you do?
Speaker A:I'm Quite Active on LinkedIn.
Speaker A:For anyone who want to follow me there, it's Nick Johnson.
Speaker A:N I C K J O N S S O N Or indeed the book Executive Loneliness is available on Amazon.
Speaker A:And for those who prefer it, it's also on Audible as an audiobook.
Speaker B:Do you read it?
Speaker A:I read it.
Speaker A:Yes, I do.
Speaker B:Excellent.
Speaker B:Excellent.
Speaker B:Well, thank you so much, Nick.
Speaker B:I'll be sure to send people that way and I hope you enjoy your bike ride today.
Speaker A:Thank you, Bill, and thanks all the listeners.
