Episode 237
SETH TROUTT - Toxic Masculinity vs. Biblical Manhood: Building a New Framework for Christian Men
Seth Troutt is the teaching pastor at Ironwood Church in Phoenix and holds a doctorate focused on digital technology, Generation Z, and gender identity. In this conversation, he shares his powerful "masculinity pyramid" framework and reveals how God transformed him from an arrogant high school athlete into a humble pastor through painful but necessary humiliation. The episode tackles controversial topics like TRT abuse among Christian men and offers biblical alternatives to toxic masculinity culture.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
- True masculinity starts with humility - recognizing you are not God
- Toxic masculinity is often the absence of virtue, not excess of it
- TRT creates psychoactive changes that damage relationships and character
- Passive men cause as much relational damage as aggressive ones
- The masculinity pyramid: humility, discipline, responsibility, chivalry
- Personal transformation requires receiving correction from loving mentors
MENTIONED IN THIS PODCAST
CONNECT WITH SETH TROUTT
🌟 The Will Spencer Podcast was formerly known as "The Renaissance of Men."
FOLLOW US FOR MORE
- Biblical Men's Mentorship - START HERE
- Will Spencer Podcast Home
- Substack
- Twitter/X
- YouTube
The Will Spencer Podcast is a weekly interview show featuring extended discussions with authors, leaders, and influencers who help us make sense of our changing world today. I release new episodes every week on Friday.
ADVERTISERS
Mentioned in this episode:
Ready to Become the Man You Were Created to Be?
Feeling disconnected from your true purpose? My biblical mentorship offers both challenge and support for men ready for authentic transformation. We work through proven approaches to help you discover the strength, purpose, and clarity God designed for you. Men are finding their identity in Christ, healing relationships, and stepping confidently into their calling. This isn't about avoiding difficulty—it's about walking through it with wisdom and brotherhood. Take this step. Schedule your discovery call and use code "BALANCE" for 10% off. Explore how biblical mentorship might be the turning point you've been seeking.
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Hello and welcome to the Will Spencer Podcast.
Speaker B:This is a weekly show where I sit down with authors, thought leaders, and influencers who help us understand our changing world.
Speaker B:New episodes release every Friday.
Speaker B:My guest this week is Seth Trout.
Speaker B: een pastoring full time since: Speaker B:With a doctorate focused on digital technology, Generation Z, and gender identity.
Speaker B:Seth provides biblical guidance on both complex cultural issues and practical personal challenges.
Speaker B:His writing explores the intersections of theology, technology, and culture.
Speaker B:Seth is an alumnus of Arizona State University, Phoenix Seminary and Covenant Seminary.
Speaker B: been married to Taylor since: Speaker B:Seth and Taylor have two children, Jay and Olivia.
Speaker B:Seth Trout, welcome to the Will Spencer Podcast.
Speaker A:Will, thanks for having me.
Speaker A:It's an honor to be here.
Speaker A:I appreciate your work and I'm glad to get to share with you some of mine.
Speaker B:Excellent.
Speaker B:Well, we had a nice sit down for coffee and of course I discovered I moved out here to East Mesa around end of last year or something like that and discovered that your church was just right around the corner.
Speaker B:So I was grateful to give me for coffee a little bit ago.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, 15 minutes down the street.
Speaker A:It's a small world and a big world at the same time.
Speaker A:And it's nice when you get reminded that it's small.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And so when we sat down to chat, you told me a little bit about your upcoming book.
Speaker B:We talked about masculinity, and I thought that you had a really good framework for understanding many of the challenges that modern men are facing, particularly in the church.
Speaker B:And so I sort of came up through the manosphere and that whole world.
Speaker B:And so to sit down and talk with you about these issues was like, okay, this is a guy who gets the whole picture and knows how to communicate it specifically, specifically to Christian men, which is so important today.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, thanks for that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's a church that's right by Arizona State University that I had friends that were on staff there and they started telling me they were having a manosphere problem at their church, like that there's a bit of an Andrew Tate uprising among the Christians there.
Speaker A:And they said, hey, will you come do a talk for us on a Wednesday night on what is wrong with Andrew Tate's view or what are the errors here?
Speaker A:And they've specifically said, you know, every, everybody who's not a total dummy can smell toxic masculinity, so called.
Speaker A:But what's like the positive vision of the alternative that's when people start to kind of get dancy, especially in evangelical circles, where there is like a nervousness about articulating what is like, it's easy to say, don't be toxic.
Speaker A:I mean, who aspires to toxicity?
Speaker A:That sounds like pretty obvious to anybody.
Speaker A:And so they said, hey, come to a talk on this.
Speaker A:And I thought I got to come up with a framework of how to approach this right?
Speaker A:Besides just kind of a handful of random Bible verse verses.
Speaker A:And so much of what I had been like, frustrated by, as I've been reading broadly on masculinity, was how most masculinity books, even within the, like an evangelical subculture or even like a Christian subculture more broadly speaking, if they weren't Roman Catholic, they ended up kind of accidentally promoting some type of androgyny or this.
Speaker A:The problem is, you know, like, too many people want to be like John Wayne.
Speaker A:They should just be like Jesus.
Speaker A:I'm like, amen for be like Jesus.
Speaker A:But also like women also aspire to be like Jesus.
Speaker A:How are men trying to be like Jesus in a way that's maybe different than a way that women are trying to be like Jesus?
Speaker A:Is there a distinction there?
Speaker A:What is that distinction?
Speaker A:And at the same time, that tension kind of helped me recognize that the starting point, I think, was is the issue that a lot of what gets called so called toxic masculinity, that it's really a missing appreciation for the difference between God and man, not necessarily starting with the differences between men and women, but the difference between God and man.
Speaker A:That if you think about the most important distinction in the entire universe is the distinction between creator and creature or creator and creation.
Speaker A:That that's the.
Speaker A:That's like the basis of our whole worldview is that there is an uncreated one and he made stuff and he rules over that stuff, and we're part of that Stu stuff.
Speaker A:And so trying to make sense of the significance of that distinction helps me begin to grasp, like, what I would kind of like begin with the masculine virtues or the masculine presence is this idea of humility that I am not God.
Speaker A:And as simple as that sounds, that I think that really even before you get into the specifics of the masculine feminine thing like man, if men just got that, they would be humble, they'd be submissive to God.
Speaker A:And it's not just the creator creature distinction, but it's also the Savior needs saved distinction.
Speaker A:So there's a humility that's both recognition of your sin, your need for grace, the absolute necessity of sheer unconditional grace and at the same time the absolute ontological distinction between God and creation.
Speaker A:And so that kind of became like the foundational thing for me.
Speaker A:Like literally I built a found, I called it the masculinity pyramid.
Speaker A:And the base of that pyramid is man is not God, therefore he needs to be humble.
Speaker A:And that was like a really helpful starting point.
Speaker A:Different than, like, how are men different than women, but how's a man different than God?
Speaker A:Then I kind of built up from there.
Speaker A:Like the second layer in the pyramid is like, okay, well man is different than the rest of the creation.
Speaker A:He's the image of God.
Speaker A:He's the moral creature.
Speaker A:He's not like a dog.
Speaker A:Like think about Pavlov's dog.
Speaker A:You know, it's ring bell, drool.
Speaker A:There's just kind of cause and effect.
Speaker A:There's not a lot of agency or no agency in subhuman creation.
Speaker A:But manna can have moral vision.
Speaker A:He can order his desires, he can order his loves.
Speaker A:He can let greater things supersede lesser things.
Speaker A:And so this like idea of discipline, which is, I understand, is like rightly ordering your values and then living in congruence with those values.
Speaker A:He said, well, man's not an animal, therefore he can have discipline.
Speaker A:Like dogs don't have discipline, Chimpanzees don't have discipline.
Speaker A:So you got like humility, then discipline.
Speaker A:Then the next layer up is that man's not a boy.
Speaker A:You think about like a boy can't take care of himself, he's not responsible, he can't be trusted to make good decisions.
Speaker A:Boys need mothers, boys, boys need parents.
Speaker A:Boys need to be managed.
Speaker A:You send my son's five, send him to a grocery store, he comes back with a bunch of stuff we don't need.
Speaker A:That's not going to be what's right for him.
Speaker A:I hope soon he'll break out of that.
Speaker A:But to cease to be a boy is to gain responsibility.
Speaker A:And obviously first you take responsibility for yourself and then it goes beyond that to taking responsibility for others.
Speaker A:You think like caring like this is in one of the qualifications of an elder.
Speaker A:If a man can't manage his household, how can he take care of the church of God?
Speaker A:Those kind of like manage and care go hand in hand.
Speaker A:Like self management, self care.
Speaker A:Not in like the get a facial and get your toes done sense of self care, but the ability to like make good choices that support your flourishing.
Speaker A:Then as my care develops margin, now I can care for other people.
Speaker A:Now I have the capacity to be not just self preoccupied, but others Preoccupied.
Speaker A:Like, I've put my oxygen mask on.
Speaker A:Now I can put the mask on other people and help them breathe when the plane goes down.
Speaker A:And those first three, I do think we have mostly in common with women, though.
Speaker A:There is, like, differentiation and how some of those things play out developmentally and otherwise.
Speaker A:But then the top of that pyramid, so you've got like humility, discipline, responsibility.
Speaker A:Those are the first three layers of the pyramid.
Speaker A:Then the top of it is that man is not woman.
Speaker A:And I really kind of build that framework off of First Peter 3 7, where Peter is exhorting men, you know, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, lest your prayers be hindered.
Speaker A:So it's both like an observation about male female distinction.
Speaker A:Weaker vessel, stronger vessel.
Speaker A:There's also additional responsibility given you live with your wife in an understanding way.
Speaker A:The wife's not commanded to understand her husband, though obviously don't think that's a bad thing if wives understand their husbands.
Speaker A:But there is like, the more powerful being has an incumbent responsibility to seek out understanding.
Speaker A:And then there's like a threat that if you don't listen to your wife, I don't listen to you.
Speaker A:Your prayers will be hindered if you don't understand your wife or live with her in an understanding way.
Speaker A:And so I call that top of the pyramid chivalry.
Speaker A:The first time I made it, I called it aggression.
Speaker A:But I think chivalry, I would call rightly ordered aggression.
Speaker A:It's strength that honors.
Speaker A:And if you think about what actually makes a man a man biologically, in the womb, their genetic code triggers a testosterone wash that leads to the development of the male genitals.
Speaker A:And then the male genitals lead to something between 20 to 30%, 30 times not percent.
Speaker A:So 200, 300 times more testosterone in a man versus a woman.
Speaker A:And you think about the effect of testosterone on people.
Speaker A:It creates aggression and strength.
Speaker A:That's kind of what it does.
Speaker A:And so what would holy aggression look like?
Speaker A:I think it looks like chivalry.
Speaker A:It's strength that honors.
Speaker A:It's initiation that protects.
Speaker A:It's standing in the gap.
Speaker A:And so that was the talk I gave, which is my.
Speaker A:They called it the masculinity pyramid, or the masculine virtues of humility, discipline, responsibility, and chivalry.
Speaker A:And part of the reason I like that is when Adam first sees Eve in the garden, the first thing he says is, bone of my bone, flesh in my flesh.
Speaker A:I think if most of us saw a naked woman in the garden, we might Observe what is different first about her, but first thing he notices is how she's a human, just like me, bone of my bone, flesh in my flesh, sameness.
Speaker A:And I do think in some circles there can be the overemphasis on difference that maybe like minimizes the image of God in woman or radicalizes the gap in a way that's maybe problematic.
Speaker A:But then you kind of have the opposite, the androgynous side, which de emphasizes or minimizes the differences.
Speaker A:And so if we kind of share some of those first three, but in the top one being chivalry, which really emphasizes the difference, I think it's been a helpful framework.
Speaker A:And part of what I like about it is even young children can remember those four things.
Speaker A:Humility, discipline, responsibility, chivalry.
Speaker A:Man is not God, man is not animal, man is not boy, man is not woman.
Speaker A:And it ends up being like a good conversation starter.
Speaker A:Like when I've taught on this at our church.
Speaker A:Which of these four do you stink at the most?
Speaker A:Which of these four are you best, like naturally good at?
Speaker A:You know, are you generally chivalrous or not?
Speaker A:And so then you kind of do the whole like, what is toxic masculinity thing.
Speaker A:And I think it's mostly the absence of one of those four things.
Speaker A:So it's less the presence of something and more the absence of something.
Speaker A:So someone who like lacks humility.
Speaker A:Oh, there's toxic masculinity, right?
Speaker A:And oh, there's chivalry.
Speaker A:Like there's someone who's bombastic or self seeking, or like a peacock, he doesn't have humility.
Speaker A:Or there's someone who's constantly sleeping past their alarm and can't be trusted with their money.
Speaker A:And you go, oh, that's missing something.
Speaker A:And so I do think, I really hate the term actually toxic masculinity because most of the time toxicity means too much of something, right?
Speaker A:Like if you get a toxic level of magnesium or a toxic level of you can die from drinking too much water.
Speaker A:That's like, you got water toxic.
Speaker A:But most of the time what we're identifying is, quote, toxic masculinity.
Speaker A:It's actually the lack of masculinity.
Speaker A:It's anemic.
Speaker A:Like there's not enough of it.
Speaker A:There's not too much of it.
Speaker A:So even like the bombastic chauvinist, they lack humility.
Speaker A:They're lacking some like, very real, meaningful masculine energy, which is submission to God.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:And someone who's like wildly passive, limp, impotent in life, who's leaned out, who Withdraws, who hides, who pouts.
Speaker A:That is every bit as toxic, so called as the abusive person.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Yes, every single bit.
Speaker A:Like when I talk to guys now, this week I've had three meetings with guys who are struggling about stuff.
Speaker A:One of them had an abusive father.
Speaker A:And he's actually having an easier time naming and processing that grief, working through, setting a new generational trajectory.
Speaker A:He is like, it's a, it's a burden that he's carrying, but he's like a little more prepared to carry it.
Speaker A:The guys who had like passive, absentee, withdrawn, deadbeat fathers, like, who kind of had like a negative model as opposed to like, like the absence of a model, like to feel not pursued, not loved, ran out on creates like almost a deeper father wound than even an abusive father.
Speaker A:I don't necessarily want to be comparing traumas here, but I'm just saying in the church it's almost 4 to 1, maybe 5 to 1 on an abdicating father wound versus an abusive father wound.
Speaker A:If I'm just going to try to do the numbers based on my experience in my church.
Speaker A:And so that chivalrous, holy aggression, support, investment into women, children, your friends even, I think that's a helpful framework.
Speaker A:So that's like what I call the masculinity pyramid or the masculine virtues.
Speaker A:And I've really enjoyed bringing it to men and talking about it with them and it's been a pretty positive thing.
Speaker A:So I'm curious, you've been in the masculinity space a lot longer than I have.
Speaker A:I kind of got called pulled into it when the church asked me to teach about it.
Speaker A:How does that sit with you?
Speaker A:Like, what are the holes or the gaps?
Speaker A:What do you appreciate about it?
Speaker B:I mean, all that stuff and like I'm sitting here listening, I was like, all that stuff lands so, so well in such a powerful way.
Speaker B:So I can just in no particular things as they come up.
Speaker B:The, the first thing that really lands is the idea of there being two.
Speaker B:And I've said this before, there are two kinds of toxic masculinity.
Speaker B:There's the, there's the chauvinistic one, the macho, bravado kind of guy.
Speaker B:And that has a particular effect on his environment, a negative effect.
Speaker B:But then there's the passive guy that drains energy, life out of his environment.
Speaker B:That's a completely different form of toxicity.
Speaker B:And I don't, again, like you, I don't like the word, but just to sort of, just to simplify.
Speaker B:And so those two kinds of men are two Very different sorts of problems.
Speaker B:I've also observed, you know, that, that there are the men who.
Speaker B:That the men who need to develop an edge have an easier time than the men.
Speaker B:Like they're so.
Speaker B:They're softer men who need to develop an edge.
Speaker B:They're better at that than the men who have an edge but need to get their edge broken.
Speaker B:Like, I don't find too many men at all that are like the macho Andrew Tate types who then repent and become softer.
Speaker B:That's a.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:It happens, but it's rare.
Speaker B:But there are so many men that have grown up passive that are learning to cultivate and develop an edge and be.
Speaker B:And be more active in their lives.
Speaker B:That's another one.
Speaker B:And I think the thing that also stands out and we can run from this is I love how you start with humility.
Speaker B:Because so much of the manosphere, the masculinity dialogue, ignores the existence of God and is actually quite Nietzschean, which is you must become God in various ways, not necessarily in the Nebuchadnezzar, build a statue to yourself way, although that is present.
Speaker B:But there is very much a.
Speaker B:Become a God of your own little world, the Ubermensch.
Speaker B:And that has a very terrible effect on men who, who achieve it and then men who fail to achieve it, versus just recognizing there will always be one that you are lesser than, and that is God.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And recognizing you're not.
Speaker B:That is such a powerful place to start with humility.
Speaker B:So maybe we can start there.
Speaker B:Because men having to learn that they're not God can have benefits for both the passive man.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And the sort of more macho, bravado guy.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:One of the metaphors that helps me make sense of this is there's a type of guy who I'd call like the peacock who flaunts the feathers.
Speaker A:Look at me.
Speaker A:On the surface, they look very confident, very self assured.
Speaker A:Most of the time they're actually pretty insecure and kind of held captive to other people's gaze.
Speaker A:But that's like a kind of unhumility that, like you said, it's the machismo.
Speaker A:Then there's the other side, which I would say, like, is the male black widow, like the man who allows himself to be devoured because he has no real sense of self and he's deeply insecure in a different way.
Speaker A:Like he doesn't see himself as valuable, doesn't see himself as potent, is kind of ruled by the opinions of other people.
Speaker A:And it's kind of like whatever the worst Version of happy wife, happy life is, you know, where you're kind of enmeshed or your, your identity is derivative of other people in your life.
Speaker A:Sometimes your wife, sometimes your girlfriend, sometimes your mother, sometimes your pastor.
Speaker A:But you don't really have like a sense of yourself as valuable.
Speaker A:And I think the doctrine of humility, under the image of God, where you go, some people need to repent of their.
Speaker A:Of thinking too highly of themselves.
Speaker A:Like, no, you're a sinner, you need grace.
Speaker A:Hell is real and God saved you from it.
Speaker A:So let's not think too highly of ourselves.
Speaker A:Other people need to repent of their low view of them and go, do you think God put you on Earth to just do nothing and be nothing?
Speaker A:Like he has a created intent for every individual man, woman and child.
Speaker A:Like, he designed you with purpose and on purpose, not on accident.
Speaker A:And you know, you may not be Genghis Khan or Tim Cook or Elon Musk or whatever, but you can have dominion over the sphere that God has entrusted to you and steward it well and honor him in that and really make a difference in your corner of the world.
Speaker A:I had a mentor one time who said, I don't think men are called to try to change the world, but I do think they're called to change their corner of the world.
Speaker A:Like whatever their sphere is, that God has given them to steward it and that God has prepared beforehand for us good works.
Speaker A:That's Ephesians 2:10.
Speaker A:Right off talks about being saved by grace.
Speaker A:It's like God has prepared for you things.
Speaker A:I'm preaching on it through Hebrews right now.
Speaker A:And it says, run the race marked out for us with endurance, as though there is.
Speaker A:There's a race Abraham ran, there's a race Sarah ran.
Speaker A:There's a race that the people of the Old Testament ran.
Speaker A:And there's a race we have for us to run.
Speaker A:And God desires that we would run it.
Speaker A:And that's really ennobling to be a son of God, to sit with him and reign with him and rule with him over our domain, over our sphere, over our arena, and to rule like him.
Speaker A:That is like full of the spirit with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control, faithfulness.
Speaker A:That when I rule over what God has given me to rule congruent with the spirit of God, I do wondrous good things to the world.
Speaker A:And I'm totally in that ad.
Speaker A:And I've talked to again later last week.
Speaker A:I talked to a guy who was telling me about how he was in a field contemplating Suicide at the end of his rope, thinking about laying it down.
Speaker A:And God interrupted him.
Speaker A:Interrupted him.
Speaker A:He said that was his phrase.
Speaker A:He said, God interrupted me.
Speaker A:And I recognized God would not have me here unless he would have me here.
Speaker A:He wants me here to do something.
Speaker A:And so his repentance looked like raising his view of himself that God has a purpose for me.
Speaker A:And I didn't receive that.
Speaker A:And I think that's actually humility.
Speaker A:That's not haughtiness, that's not arrogance.
Speaker A:That's believing that God put you on earth for a purpose.
Speaker A:To do something meaningful and purposeful is not haughtiness.
Speaker A:It's going to the glory of the Lord.
Speaker A:I will do glorious things and I will point people to him with whatever I have.
Speaker A:And so that humility piece, sometimes people think it's just like self flatulation or thinking lowly of yourself.
Speaker A:But the C.S.
Speaker A:lewis quote, that humility is not thinking lower of yourself or less of yourself.
Speaker A:It's just generally thinking of yourself less.
Speaker A:Like it's being preoccupied with something besides you, which is God, his purpose, his glory.
Speaker A:And I think real masculine humility looks like going, I am a son of God.
Speaker A:I have special access.
Speaker A:I have purpose.
Speaker A:It makes me think.
Speaker A:You know, my dad used to be a high school basketball coach.
Speaker A:And when I was like seven, I would strut around Chandler High School like I owned the place.
Speaker A:And when the security guard was like, where's your ticket?
Speaker A:Or what are you doing here?
Speaker A:I'm like, my dad's the coach, you know, like this.
Speaker A:And it was pretty naive and I probably could have used a little correction on how to carry myself.
Speaker A:But this believing that my dad was in a position of authority, therefore you all need to respect me, was pretty ingrained in me.
Speaker A:And I do think that shapes how I relate to God.
Speaker A:And my dad's in a position of authority and I'm his son and he's asked me to be here and so I'm going to be here.
Speaker A:I'm going to do the best I can.
Speaker A:That kind of confident humility, not an anemic black widow male humility, but like a robust view of self is, I think really it's encouraging to me and I think it's encouraging others as well.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's, it's finding that balance between being totally self effacing, you know, false humility and, you know, and then you kind of step up out of that ditch and then learning to stand on, maybe it's a balance beam in a sense where you don't fall into the ditch.
Speaker B:Of thinking far too much of yourself.
Speaker B:And that seems to be a balance beam that that many men have trouble standing on, like climb out of one ditch only to fall into the next one.
Speaker B:And it's really only faith in Christ and understanding of your nature as a created being that can help establish that balance.
Speaker B:Because I don't see it anywhere else.
Speaker B:There's no place else to put that in a way that it can be rooted firmly and not just collapse into one of two errors.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think the Christian doctrine of salvation, it threads that needle.
Speaker A:And I don't believe in the doctrine of justification by grace because it works.
Speaker A:I believe it because I think it's true.
Speaker A:I also think it works, is the way I think about that.
Speaker A:Like this idea that you are made in God's image and absolutely deserve hell because you're a sinner and God saved you by sheer grace, and nothing can change that.
Speaker A:That really creates the balance needed, I think, to be a self, like a confident person, but who's confident because you're confident in the Lord, not because you're confident in yourself.
Speaker A:And so I'm so thankful for just the gospel of grace, because I do think that creates a view of self that's like, wildly functional in addition to being wildly true, because it's what the Bible teaches.
Speaker B:And I like also how beginning from a posture of humility immediately sets the tone for relationships with women.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Whether it be wives or someone that you're courting or anyone, just women in your environment.
Speaker B:Because so many men fall in the passive ditch, they kind of vanish and disappear.
Speaker B:And men who are passive, they will have moments where they snap out of that passivity and are far too active.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That seems to be the back and forth.
Speaker B:And then you have the bravado.
Speaker B:Guys who end up who can be quite domineering in marriage and can be quite disparaging, you know, in other circumstances.
Speaker B:But beginning with that posture of humility is the.
Speaker B:Is the surest way to prevent that, to prevent both of those and to look and see.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:This is my sister in Christ made in the image of God, another woman made in the image of God, as opposed to saying, no, I'm God, or like, I'm beneath her.
Speaker B:And that's what I've seen so much in the manosphere is you have men who either look down on women or look up to them.
Speaker B:Don't do either of those.
Speaker B:Like, you can look your sister square in the eye.
Speaker B:I know that that's considered confronting or whatever, but, like, you know, as the Metaphor, that's what you're supposed to do, is just like, look them square in the eye.
Speaker B:Because compared to your Creator and your Savior, you're both on exactly the same level, which is, like, nowhere.
Speaker B:But I think.
Speaker B:You know what I mean.
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker A:I think one of the litmus tests for humility is curiosity.
Speaker A:And here's what I mean by that.
Speaker A:In Philippians 2, Paul's talking about the mind of Christ, you know, who, being in very nature God did not considered equality with God a thing to be grasped or leveraged, but made himself nothing, taking the form of servant, being found in the likeness of man.
Speaker A:And he goes on to say, like, the purpose of this is to consider others more significant than yourselves.
Speaker A:And I don't think what he's saying is, think other people are more valuable than you, but it's like, give more consideration to others than you give to yourself.
Speaker A:And so when you meet a woman, when you meet a man, you're going to.
Speaker A:And if you approach that person with, like, genuine curiosity, not like weird, prying, interrogative, interrogating efforts, but like, going, there's something going on in this person's heart, mind and soul that's fundamentally interesting because they're made in God's interest.
Speaker A:They're made in God's image.
Speaker A:I had another mentor one time, I was telling about how I was so bored with most people and they were annoying to me.
Speaker A:And he said, well, here's the thing is people.
Speaker A:People are interesting, and if you're not interested in them, then that's your problem.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And it was like him saying, people are objectively interesting.
Speaker A:If you're not interested, then you're not humble.
Speaker A:Because the ability to consider others and weigh their opinions and thoughts and mind, to really try to get between someone's ears, behind someone's eyes and go, how do they see the world?
Speaker A:How do they think about it?
Speaker A:What do they want in life?
Speaker A:What's making them tick?
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That type of gravitas that you kind of are at, that you're attracting people because of your curiosity.
Speaker A:Tell me more about that.
Speaker A:What's going on there?
Speaker A:Hey, help me understand why that.
Speaker A:And that is actually attractive, both in friendship and in dating.
Speaker A:Like, people who, like, are genuinely curious in people.
Speaker A:People like being around them.
Speaker A:And so I don't just mean attractive like in the sexual sense, but I just mean in the.
Speaker A:People tend to like curious people because they're like, oh, I like me and you want to get to know me.
Speaker A:That sounds great.
Speaker A:And I don't think it's all that childish and petty.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But I think the people that I meet that are just like genuinely naturally curious.
Speaker A:That to me is like one of the above the line iceberg type tells on real humility.
Speaker A:Like people who really are interested in other people and not just interested in talking about themselves.
Speaker A:Because it is normal that people like talking about themselves.
Speaker A:What's abnormal is people like talking about someone else.
Speaker A:And so that curiosity test is.
Speaker A:Is one I have to give myself pretty often, but also one that when I'm like just trying to discern the character of another person, like are they just naturally curious or even supernaturally curious because of the work of God in their life?
Speaker B:Amen to that.
Speaker B:So you've said a couple things that indicate that there's been a significant change between the young man you were in high school and the man that you are today.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Can you.
Speaker B:From strutting around and.
Speaker B:And thinking people were boring and stuff like that.
Speaker B:Like clearly that's not who you are now.
Speaker B:Can you share if you'd be willing, maybe a couple of the episodes that might have set you on a course correction to the place that you are today.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's a season in my life where I was very self confident, like in high school in particular, where I was captain of the sports team, voted most attractive.
Speaker A:And I was just really mean to people all the time.
Speaker A:I would make teachers cry.
Speaker A:I would make people, I would make kids cry, like grown women.
Speaker A:Like just a general.
Speaker A:Like I had a really sharp, fast tongue.
Speaker A:I can.
Speaker A:I knew how to make people feel really small really fast.
Speaker A:You know, I had.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:One of my buddies is like super into the enneagram.
Speaker A:I'm kind of man on it.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I don't know if you hate it or not, but he talks about.
Speaker A:But yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Well, I'll tell you.
Speaker A:I'll tell you this so you're free to hate it.
Speaker A:But he's talking about.
Speaker A:He say.
Speaker A:He told me I'm an eight and Eights have this sixth sense for weakness in other people.
Speaker A:And it like I'm like, well that explains things.
Speaker A:So I feel like I could see people see what they're insecure about and just twist the knife on them just to make myself feel bigger.
Speaker A:And it wasn't even like I was like, I need to make myself feel bigger.
Speaker A:But I was like, I can make that person feel smaller.
Speaker A:Why not?
Speaker A:And it was like lab, like scientist, lab rat was kind of like how dehumanizing I think I was to other people as Far as, like, people were just entertaining to me.
Speaker A:And if I could poke their buttons and make them feel small, it was just kind of like, interesting.
Speaker A:And then I'd go home and sleep well at night if I made a teacher cry and some girl in my class cry.
Speaker A:And then I'd go to church and I'd lead worship because I was in the band.
Speaker A:And so that was the, the binary thing.
Speaker A:And I had three different mentors.
Speaker A:Guy named Thomas, guy named Luke, and a guy named Michael.
Speaker A:They never conspired together.
Speaker A:I tested them on that.
Speaker A:But, you know, Luke first.
Speaker A:Luke pulled me aside and he was a worship leader at a different church.
Speaker A:And he said, hey, you're really haughty and arrogant and you're destroying people.
Speaker A:You should really think about working on humility.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:And I remember thinking like, sure, whatever.
Speaker A:Well, how do I work on humility?
Speaker A:And he said, I want you to read this book, Humility by Andrew Murray, and why don't you memorize Philippians 2?
Speaker A:And I was very good at school.
Speaker A:I was very good academic wise.
Speaker A:So I read the book in a week, memorized Philippines two in a week.
Speaker A:Came back to him the next week and said, done.
Speaker A:What else you got?
Speaker A:I'm humble now.
Speaker A:And he said, that didn't work.
Speaker A:You're still terrible.
Speaker A:And I'm like, well, what do you got to do?
Speaker A:What are you talking about?
Speaker A:I did the thing you asked, and I know what humility is.
Speaker A:I read the book on humility.
Speaker A:I memorized the chapter on humility.
Speaker B:I know everything there is to know about humility.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you want me to teach a class on humility?
Speaker A:I could totally do.
Speaker A:So then a few weeks after that, a guy named Thomas said, you're pretty arrogant.
Speaker A:You seem to be totally unconcerned about other people, pretty aloof to what they're thinking and feeling, uninterested in what they're thinking and feeling.
Speaker A:You kind of seem to think like you're God's gift to the world and nobody else is.
Speaker A:And I was like, yeah, I think so.
Speaker A:You know, just going, I think I'm an asset.
Speaker A:I think I'm an asset.
Speaker A:And I think I'm great.
Speaker A:And, you know, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm good at school and I'm fun to be around and the Lord's lucky to have me.
Speaker A:It was kind of like the sound.
Speaker B:Like a riot to be around.
Speaker B:Sound like a lot of fun to be around.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, you know, I'd go to parties at school and people would be drinking and doing drugs and the non Christians would go like, hey, you want to drink with us?
Speaker A:And I'd say, no, I don't need a drink because my parents love me and I'm not trying to cover emptiness with alcohol.
Speaker A:And I don't know how nobody came to Christ through my wild evangelism efforts.
Speaker B:Baffling.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So a great mystery.
Speaker A:Just giving you a flavor for the haughtiness and just the high handed self importance.
Speaker A:Then another pastor told me that it was like a liability.
Speaker A:How arrogant I was.
Speaker A:And I was like, to who?
Speaker A:What are you talking about?
Speaker A:And it didn't make any sense.
Speaker A:And then my girlfriend at the time broke up with me and she was like, best looking girl in the high school, best looking girl in the youth group.
Speaker A:And she told me, I don't want to be around you, were not working out.
Speaker A:And it like really chopped me off in a.
Speaker A:At the knees, in a different way.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Going like, what are you.
Speaker A:What are you talking about?
Speaker A:You don't want to.
Speaker A:Who wouldn't want to be with me?
Speaker A:Like, you're a crazy person.
Speaker A:And there's.
Speaker A:I can only make sense of it in such a way of going.
Speaker A:There's a type of humility that only comes from humiliation.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:That you go.
Speaker A:Like, I remember going to school the next day and feeling like I'm gonna have to tell people my girlfriend broke up with me.
Speaker A:What kind of loser has her girlfriend break up with?
Speaker A:And I'm about to go to church and see her and people are gonna go, she broke up with you?
Speaker A:And I'm gonna have to like, face the music on that kind of embarrassment of how that plays out.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I feel like that really stirred something in me where I was going, okay, maybe these other people.
Speaker A:Then I remember going to some of these mentors and going, all right, now tell me again about how I'm arrogant.
Speaker A:Tell me more about that.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker A:I had two different friends.
Speaker A:One who was my best friend.
Speaker A:Tell me.
Speaker A:I don't like being around you.
Speaker A:I don't want to talk to you.
Speaker A:He went off to college, said, don't call me, don't text me.
Speaker A:You've, like, I've been like mad at you and desire to not be around you for at least the last two years.
Speaker A:And going off to college is a great way to escape you.
Speaker A:And I'm going, I thought this guy was my best friend.
Speaker A:This is the guy who led me to.
Speaker A:This is the guy who led me to Christ in eighth grade, the guy who introduced me to my girlfriend.
Speaker A:I had another really good friend who just.
Speaker A:I Was like, leading a small group at the church and said, I don't want to be a part of this thing anymore.
Speaker A:Like, left the church to get away from me, me.
Speaker A:And so it was really like mentors telling me, you're not who you think you are.
Speaker A:Me not being able to hear it, my friends telling me you're not who you think you are.
Speaker A:I don't want to be around, like, getting broken up with by your friends, getting broken up with your girlfriend.
Speaker A:That kind of, like, gave you the image.
Speaker A:It was actually, like, that kind of crisis.
Speaker A:It was probably like 18, 19, that whole window.
Speaker A:I had another, like, guy.
Speaker A:So when these pastors told me I was arrogant, I was thinking like, well, these people are just kind of passive beta men.
Speaker A:If I went to a church with, like, more healthy, masculine leadership, they would appreciate my presence.
Speaker A:And so I went to a different church to meet with the pastor there.
Speaker A:And I was like, yeah, I think it'd be great if I came over here.
Speaker A:A lot of people would come with me, and it'd be good for you if I came over here.
Speaker A:Basically, that was, like, my pitch to this guy.
Speaker A:And he said that I had young man's disease.
Speaker A:And, like, what's young man's disease?
Speaker A:He's like, everything about you, it's.
Speaker A:It's haughtiness, it's overestimation of self.
Speaker A:It's lack of humility.
Speaker A:It's misunderstanding people.
Speaker A:And he said, I don't want you to come here.
Speaker A:Like, you.
Speaker A:I mean, could if you want to, but you'll sit in the back, he won't serve, and you'll just.
Speaker A:You won't be a.
Speaker A:You will lead nothing for a very long time.
Speaker A:I don't even know why you're leading stuff over there.
Speaker A:I don't know why they're letting you do that.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so it's kind of like this feeling of, like, being unwanted by people, especially being unwanted by my girlfriend, ex girlfriend, at that time that I think gave me ears to hear and go back to.
Speaker A:So my youth pastor now, his name's Michael, at the time, I still meet with him, like, every five, six weeks.
Speaker A:It's been 20 years, maybe not 20, 15 years.
Speaker A:That gave me ears to hear what he had to say and, like, not receive the personal confrontation as something that was just another syllabus to pass or another ladder to climb, but actually having humility before God, that came on the far end of humiliation, the embarrassment, the shame of realizing my view of me and other people's view of me was really, really There's a big gap gap.
Speaker A:And so that's kind of the terrifying part when you go, I don't even trust myself to see myself.
Speaker A:Like, I.
Speaker A:My.
Speaker A:My read on me was untrustworthy, so I can't really trust myself to read myself.
Speaker A:I need mentors and people to tell me the truth about me, because I can't believe my own BS anymore.
Speaker A:Like, I can't, like.
Speaker A:And so that he.
Speaker A:That was a.
Speaker A:A painful grind of 18 to 36 months probably in that window.
Speaker A:That was really helpful to me in the long run.
Speaker A:So the Lord definitely used it, but it was like a tribe of people having to beat me down to get my ears soft enough to listen, because there's a lot of people saying the same thing.
Speaker A:And I could not hear spirit.
Speaker A:And a piece of me wants to blame.
Speaker A:My prefrontal cortex wasn't all the way developed, but I just think it was.
Speaker A:The deep embeddedness of sin is a much more biblical explanation, so I'm thankful for that.
Speaker A:I do think the biggest turning point was my girlfriend at the time breaking up with me.
Speaker A:And that kind of set off the domino effect of other people going, like, oh, you can just not want to be around Seth.
Speaker A:That sounds great.
Speaker A:Sign me up.
Speaker A:And so there was some effect there that cascaded a bit.
Speaker B:I really appreciate your.
Speaker B:Your honesty and your humility about that.
Speaker B:And it just totally makes sense that you would hit 18, 19 years old, and then all the structures that are built around you in high school that everyone feels kind of beholden to, those fall away.
Speaker B:And then everyone is sort of like, has freedom of association, and it's like, hey, now that that's done, I'm out of here.
Speaker B:See ya.
Speaker B:And again, just going back to something I said earlier in the conversation.
Speaker B:It's so rare in my experience to see men with as sharp and as hard an edge as you had to have that edge be broken or like.
Speaker B:Or like, be broken and then reconstituted in a healthy way.
Speaker B:Like what a lot of men will do who encounter.
Speaker B:Like, they'll take those three knocks and they'll be like, the whole world is wrong.
Speaker B:I hate you all, and whatever.
Speaker B:And they'll, like, triple down and their edge will get super brittle.
Speaker B:And then something will come along later in life that'll just shatter them, and they won't ever be able to be, like, a productive contributor.
Speaker B:Maybe God will find them in that place, or maybe they'll find their way into extremist ideologies.
Speaker B:Happens frequently.
Speaker B:Or drug abuse, alcohol abuse.
Speaker B:Like, that's a Very common pattern.
Speaker B:But that you actually received the correction with humility, I think is definitely a gift from God.
Speaker B:A gift of the Holy Spirit that made your internal ability to stand upright and not collapse into some worse state as a result.
Speaker B:And it sounds like God actually reshaped you in a very productive direction, because the man who you were now has the ability to speak to men who are in similar places and reach them, which is so very much needed.
Speaker B:And again, it makes a whole ton of sense why you would be called to speak into the Andrew Tate situation.
Speaker B:Because someone who can speak authoritatively into that is someone who's like, look, I get what's going on there, and I know what you feel, what you think is appealing about him.
Speaker B:And I used to kind of be that way.
Speaker B:And that will have a specific attraction for young men in a more godly direction, if that makes sense.
Speaker A:Sense.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:I hope so.
Speaker A:And I feel really grateful to the Lord because I do think in that season that had I fallen into the wrong hands, the way I would have stewarded that humiliation could have been wildly different.
Speaker A:Yes, you know, is going, well, the problem is evangelicals, or the problem is church, or the problem is women, or the problem is Western culture, or the problem is, instead of God, had all these people around me who were all, like, holding up the mirror to me and going like, no, the problem is you quit.
Speaker A:Because there's a piece of me that wanted to go the victim path and wanted to take up the woe is me path.
Speaker A:And zero people who were close to me tolerated that energy for a second.
Speaker A:They're all like, no, you, you, you, you are the problem.
Speaker A:And so the Taylor Swift song, you know, it's me.
Speaker A:Hi, I'm the problem.
Speaker A:It's me.
Speaker A:That's the.
Speaker A:I go, man, that song wasn't out when I was in high school, but it would've been my personal theme song for about two years, for sure.
Speaker A:Not the rest of the song, just that line in the song.
Speaker A:But you get how it goes.
Speaker A:Cause I do feel like where you're at, because humiliation is suffering.
Speaker A:And how you cope with suffering shapes a lot of what's gonna come of that suffering.
Speaker A:And I think that God had some loving men in my life who are not afraid to confront me and not afraid to be unimpressed with me and not afraid to tell me the truth.
Speaker B:Can't relate.
Speaker A:And they all.
Speaker A:And they all just kept holding up the mirror.
Speaker A:No, it's.
Speaker A:You keep looking in this mirror.
Speaker A:Like, it makes me think about when the prophet Nathan Confronts David.
Speaker A:And he goes, oh, you know, there is a man who had all these sheep, but then this one guy only had one sheep.
Speaker A:And what do you think about that?
Speaker A:Because the guy with all the sheep took the guy's one sheep.
Speaker A:And David goes, that's wrong.
Speaker A:That shouldn't be happening.
Speaker A:And Nathan goes, you're the man.
Speaker A:Like, it's almost like Nathan holds up a window.
Speaker A:I think Zach Eswine talks about this.
Speaker A:He holds a window.
Speaker A:Like, look out this window.
Speaker A:What do you think was out that window?
Speaker A:And then you speak with judgment about what you see out the window.
Speaker A:Them, those people, men like that, those type of people.
Speaker A:And then the prophet Nathan takes the window and turns it into a mirror and says, look in this, buddy.
Speaker A:And it's like, oh.
Speaker A:And then you see yourself.
Speaker A:So I had a bunch of men who help.
Speaker A:Like, we're good at looking out the window with me, me.
Speaker A:And then they kept turning the window in the mirror and saying, now you.
Speaker A:Now you take this medicine.
Speaker A:Now you receive humility.
Speaker A:And when I saw humility as just a project, then it was just another occasion for haughtiness.
Speaker A:But when humility became something that I kind of didn't really choose, but humiliation forced me into it.
Speaker A:And then I was able to connect with the Lord and mentors in that process.
Speaker A:I felt like it was good.
Speaker A:And so if you ask my wife now how much of that guy is still in there, she'd say, he's not all the way dead.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:Of course he's still around.
Speaker A:And even some of my friends who are listening to this might go, like, how interesting that Seth thinks he's so much better now.
Speaker A:So there's the sinful habits rear their heads.
Speaker A:And it's one of those.
Speaker A:The more kind of safe I tend to feel relationally in an environment, it.
Speaker A:The more I kind of let that part of myself come out, which is really gross.
Speaker A:You know, you think the people who love you the most and you feel safest around you try to be the most holy with.
Speaker A:But there is an old habits die hard thing that is still a battle.
Speaker A:The type of humility that's actually congruent with the spirit of Christ.
Speaker A:You have to go on in the spirit, receiving the spirit.
Speaker A:You can't just trust on past faithfulness to produce future faithfulness.
Speaker A:That's not how it works.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:I'm glad that you said that, because there's very much a component of our ongoing sanctification, which is like, yes, we're saved and the burden falls off like a pilgrim's progress.
Speaker B:But that doesn't mean we're completely brand new people.
Speaker B:There are some sins, habits, ways of being thinking and acting and speaking that continue on, that we need to throw ourselves on, on the mercy of Christ to regenerate us in.
Speaker B:And that's an.
Speaker B:That is an ongoing practice, an ongoing pattern, and it requires, it keeps us in that state of humility.
Speaker B:Like, I think the second we were like, I'm sanctified.
Speaker B:I've arrived.
Speaker B:This is a good, good moment.
Speaker B:Like in the very next breath you're going to find out that you haven't.
Speaker B:And just before we go into that, I do want to register, like, the listeners of this podcast will know that I'm hard opposed to the Enneagram.
Speaker B:And I have lots that I can say about that.
Speaker B:So I don't want to go down that route.
Speaker B:Yeah, please, go ahead.
Speaker A:I think I totally know.
Speaker A:I know that.
Speaker A:I think, I think I've seen you post about that before.
Speaker A:My whole point was.
Speaker A:Yeah, this.
Speaker A:The guy used that to say.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker A:You have this nose for weakness in people.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And, you know, you might disagree with me on this, but I do think whatever helps you grow an awareness of your sin, like, could be used possibly.
Speaker A:Well, it obviously can be used to give license and be like wacky pagan weird stuff.
Speaker A:But, well, like, at least the way this guy used it, it was like he was convicting me of sin using some tool.
Speaker B:So anyway, no, that's.
Speaker A:Sorry, bring up something I know you don't like on your podcast.
Speaker B:No, no, I'm glad, I'm glad that you did because there is a moment, like, so a part of my story is like, Bethel.
Speaker B:Bethel music.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so when I was, when I was.
Speaker B:Before I was a Christian and then I was a very, a very baby Christian, two Bethel songs played a huge role, especially before I became a Christian.
Speaker B:There was one Bethel song that was like, oh, wow, Christian music can sound like this.
Speaker B:And then after, when I was a baby Christian, the, before I was even Christian for a year, there was another Bethel song that came along at the moment that I needed it.
Speaker B:Now I go back and I listen to those songs.
Speaker B:Now I'm like, oh, wow, okay.
Speaker B:You know, and I can, I can see many of the flaws in it.
Speaker B:And in the same way, like, that was something that you needed to hear in that moment.
Speaker B:And I think that there are lots of personality tests out there that can reveal people's various quirks and flaws, and I think they're valid to that extent.
Speaker B:It's Just where people start assigning themselves to an identity like I am.
Speaker B:This is such a powerful statement.
Speaker B:Whether It's I'm an 8 or I'm an alcoholic, you know, or I'm.
Speaker B:I'm a.
Speaker B:I'm a survivor of X.
Speaker B:Once we start applying labels to ourselves, things can get very dangerous.
Speaker B:So I'm, I'm grateful that, that in that moment, that piece of wisdom was able to hit and send you spinning in a new direction.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:Yeah, so, so that's.
Speaker B:I'm, I'm.
Speaker B:I'm thankful for that without wanting to go too far down, down the path, but I do have to acknowledge it.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I totally get that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So let's move on then.
Speaker B:So, like, again, like, you've illustrated the humility in this really powerful way as the foundation of the pyramid.
Speaker B:And not just the momentary humility, which is like, to recognize when the blows come in, when the humility is not accepted, it becomes humiliation.
Speaker B:Like, humiliation is forced humility.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So accept the humility when it happens.
Speaker B:But then the ongoing humility to be like, yeah, I'm still kind of that guy, you know, but not in a way that you're proud of it, like, deal with it.
Speaker B:It's like, no, this is something that I struggle.
Speaker B:So that's such a solid foundation to build masculinity on top of, because it just redefines how you relate to people in your environment.
Speaker B:You're able to listen like the royal you.
Speaker B:Not necessarily you you, but, you know, both of us.
Speaker B:Able to listen, able to receive people, able to hear them, able to give guidance.
Speaker B:Like, humility creates so much space for the other person, and so many people feel so crowded out by life that being a man who can create, who can create space for others is a huge blessing.
Speaker B:Blessing, yeah.
Speaker A:I do think the security that comes from a good gospel humility, where you're going, I don't need this person to think something about me.
Speaker A:I'm able to just be who God made me and where I'm at in my journey, where I'm at in my walk, where I'm at my maturity.
Speaker A:And I'm just free to love them without, like, needing love back from them, per se.
Speaker A:That is a great type of person to be around, where they're able to enjoy people, not use people.
Speaker A:It's like, whatever.
Speaker A:Uncling is like that differentiated self where, like, I know who I am in Christ, and therefore, if.
Speaker A:If you don't like me, like, that's kind of sad, but it doesn't.
Speaker A:Like, it's not going to ruin my day.
Speaker A:So I can, if you reject me, I go like, well that's all right.
Speaker A:You know who didn't reject me?
Speaker A:The Lord.
Speaker A:And you know who's smarter than the Lord?
Speaker A:Nobody.
Speaker A:You know, so what are you going to do?
Speaker A:And so there is a security of presence that brings that I think is a true Jesus died for your sins humility, not a self hating humility.
Speaker A:And I think it also is like the foundation that then leads you to the other masculine virtues.
Speaker A:That is important to start there because if you go to the discussion about discipline, you start talking about spiritual disciplines, physical disciplines, relational disciplines, the habits that shape us and form us and make us that if you hate yourself and you create a genius going discipline, then body dysmorphia is there waiting for you for sure.
Speaker A:If you hate yourself when you start doing spiritual disciplines, then you're going to have the angst of Martin Luther, who's never good enough, never holy enough and you're going to fast until you have ulcers and it's going to not go well.
Speaker A:If you think God doesn't love me and I'm reading my Bible every morning, you're going to misread the Bible because that's not the story of the scriptures.
Speaker A:And so the like self improvement or the self discipline is probably a better bit more biblical way of thinking about it.
Speaker A:But this idea like I want to grow, I want to steward my body, my mind, my soul well, I want to steward my finances well.
Speaker A:Like all these different types of disciplines, when I'm doing it from a position of gratitude and security, then I'm able to do it non anxiously.
Speaker A:It's not anal, it's not fussy, it's not.
Speaker A:If I don't do this, then my day's terrible.
Speaker A:If I buy some on Amazon, I shouldn't have have, I'm not like, oh, I have, I'm a terrible person and I'm a, you know, a squanderer of God's money.
Speaker A:Which may be true in a sense, but like you're able to go, I'm just trying to steward well what God's given me both financially, spiritually, emotionally, physically.
Speaker A:You know, I talk to guys regularly who are in the gym and they don't like have a high view of themselves like as God's son, made in God's image, saved by grace.
Speaker A:And, and you know what almost all of them have in common is they think they're not big enough, they're not strong enough, they're going to TRT to try to get themselves bigger, which is a psychoactive substance and it's affecting the relationships.
Speaker A:Yeah, it certainly is.
Speaker A:Like if anybody, like all the Powerlifters and bodybuilders understand that like a testosterone or steroid enhanced man is as different from most men as most men are different from women.
Speaker A:Like if you kind of go, go women, men, steroid men, it creates a different gap and it's just like an enhancement.
Speaker A:It affects your thinking, you're relating your sleeping, it affects the shape of your heart.
Speaker A:There's a couple bodybuilding guys I like because they're interesting, but they're going, I've taken 25 to 30 years off my life to do this and they'd be in that Nietzsche in Ubermensch view.
Speaker A:They're like, and guess what, I don't care.
Speaker A:Because I'd rather have a heart attack at 52 and be jacked the whole time than be skinny and boring now and be wrinkly and old then and like that.
Speaker A:You cannot think that and maintain a view of biblical authority.
Speaker A:You can't.
Speaker A:Like the sixth commandment, thou shalt not murder includes I think, think slow suicide by lifestyle, which might be like a couch potato type thing, but it also includes artificially injecting yourself with all types of stuff that's going to prematurely end your life.
Speaker A:And so you want to go to the gym and look good and be strong and be healthy.
Speaker A:But if you don't go there out of a view of self respect as God's son, going with a view of stewarding the body, that mirror will ruin your life and you won't be able to see it well.
Speaker A:And I think it's same with people who get super fussy about spiritual disciplines and it's like an anxious exercise.
Speaker A:Not like they're communing with the Lord, but they're just trying to get it right.
Speaker A:And if they don't get it right, oh my gosh, there's like an anxiety driven thing.
Speaker A:I'm going, no.
Speaker A:Like I set an alarm, I read the Lord's word, I pray, I go to the gym and take care of my body because I work a desk job and I have to.
Speaker A:But all this is done out of like gratitude and stewardship, not because I'm.
Speaker A:If I don't, then I'm not a man or something like that.
Speaker A:And so I think the discipline one is big.
Speaker A:I do think the ordering of values, the ordering of desires is a big thing.
Speaker A:Especially like maybe in our part of the world where like the wealth goes up and Hobbies, capacity goes up and people are too busy for church because they got 15 hobbies and they're too busy to serve in church because we had a long week with sports things and you know, you have a vacation home here and a vacation home there and you, you're going, okay, what's like, do we really believe in local church?
Speaker A:Do we really believe in the gospel?
Speaker A:Do we really, really believe in this, the sacraments and the means of grace?
Speaker A:Do we really believe that the, that the, the fellowship of the body is valuable?
Speaker A:Do we really believe in stirring one other up to 11 good works?
Speaker A:Do we really believe?
Speaker A:And it's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I believe that.
Speaker A:I believe that, that.
Speaker A:And so it's not like that the belief is off, it's just wrongly ordered.
Speaker A:And like they're going, yeah, that's on my top 10.
Speaker A:But it's like number nine.
Speaker A:And it's like, okay, so similar with like sexuality.
Speaker A:Like, do you really believe that pornography is sin?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Okay, well let's go ahead and throw off that sin which so easily entangles.
Speaker A:Oh well, I mean, I think it's sin, but I don't think it's like that bad.
Speaker A:You know what, like, because everyone has like sin that they would, you know, like the idea of like acceptable sins, you know, that's like some of these things become that.
Speaker A:And so you don't, you lack the discipline of going, will I like job, make a vow to the Lord to never look at a woman with lust.
Speaker A:Or I'm going like, well, I'm not going to go that hard at it.
Speaker A:And you go, okay, discipline, the disciplining of desires, the ordering of desires, like sexual stewardship, financial stewardship, emotional stewardship, spiritual stewardship.
Speaker A:Trying to be very clear of like, what are our stated values versus our actual values and how do they need to shift and change.
Speaker A:I think is one of the disciplines a man has to think through in terms of prioritization of things.
Speaker A:I'll say.
Speaker A:I think it was the end of last year.
Speaker A:So about 18 months ago now, someone told me what one of my asked me what my New Year's resolutions were.
Speaker A:And I said, I need to go to the gym less.
Speaker B:I've been only man on earth to say that.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm like, it's just, that's an easy habit for me.
Speaker A:Alarm goes off, take a pre workout read, go to the gym.
Speaker A:The gym's like on my way to the office.
Speaker A:It's convenient.
Speaker A:I have friends there now.
Speaker A:I see them.
Speaker A:We talk.
Speaker A:How's it going?
Speaker A:Like it's, it's become an easy habit and I'm like, I need to like skip the gym couple days a week and like read more, pray more, work more.
Speaker A:Because I just sensed like gym as a value was creeping up on the list because it was easy, because it was like a, a flow.
Speaker A:It this, the rhythm created itself and going, I need a.
Speaker A:So I, you know, cut out a couple gym days to like do some more deep reading, some deep praying.
Speaker A:And it was great, right?
Speaker A:And so I think this is one of those like John Calvin's idea of like know thyself, you know, you gotta know where your values are prone to getting out of whack.
Speaker A:And like that's different for you than it is for me.
Speaker A:And so that discipline piece, I think if you don't begin that with like a view of humility as God's son, it's just a way to manipulate, manipulate God and control yourself.
Speaker A:And a self esteem grab is what discipline can become.
Speaker B:This is all so good because it articulates so clearly the different traps that men fall into.
Speaker B:And that's one of the hardest things about talking about masculinity today is that it's the quintessential example of ditches on both sides of the road.
Speaker B:And you can point out one set of problems with men specifically say, what about this set?
Speaker B:And then people are forced to sort of hopscotch back and forth between the two and you never actually get anywhere versus talking about like, okay, let's provide a lens, a framework to view this through where you can see both things as, as opposite ends of a spectrum and you find a way to calibrate in between.
Speaker B:I just think.
Speaker B:And humility is the way is again, is the key to all of that because you can be too excessive with your discipline or you can be under disciplined.
Speaker B:And you have to understand, like you said, the ways that your values are going to go out of whack, that shows up for myself.
Speaker B:Like, I love talking to people.
Speaker B:I find people incredibly interesting and I always have, have and it's really easy for me to give away lots of time during my week to show up on other people's podcasts and stuff like that.
Speaker B:And then I find the time to do the stuff that only I can do is just, it's just gone.
Speaker B:And I'm like, okay, I got to get my own values in calibration.
Speaker B:And so for you, that's the gym.
Speaker B:And if, if we can for just a moment, I really want to drill in on the TRT issue because I think this is a way bigger problem driving a lot more of the right wing extremism that we're seeing in Christian circles than people realize.
Speaker B:Like when, when I.
Speaker B:I challenge a lot of stuff on.
Speaker B:On X as.
Speaker B:As you know, but when I challenge TRT specifically, I've had men that I've broken bread with that were my friends in person.
Speaker B:I've spent time with their families.
Speaker B:They turned on me fast.
Speaker B:Like, I started questioning TRT and a guy that I knew that I'd eaten with, spent time with said, you know, pardon my swearing.
Speaker B:He said, you sound like a.
Speaker B:And I was like, whoa, bro, like, we're friends, like.
Speaker B:And he just turned on me like that.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:And so when you say that it's a psychoactive chemical.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:But guys are so resistant to hearing that.
Speaker B:Like, I'm just replacing the testosterone that's been taken from me.
Speaker B:Like, well, maybe that's true, but it's warping your mind, it's warping your personality.
Speaker B:I don't recognize you anymore.
Speaker B:Not just physically, but I guess spiritually.
Speaker B:And I've seen this so many times.
Speaker B:And it's something that I don't think a lot of pastors or people in the, in the reform world or in our relative sphere have any visibility in because it seems so niche, but it's really not.
Speaker B:So maybe we can just drill in on that for just a moment.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:So I have a couple MD endocrinologist friends who operate hormone clinics.
Speaker A:And you know, they're.
Speaker A:I think each of them are 60 plus.
Speaker A:They might hear that and be offended by it, but I don't know.
Speaker A:They're in that window.
Speaker A:And I've asked them, like, how does being a Christian change the way you operate as an endocrinologist versus someone who's maybe sub Christian or non Christian?
Speaker A:And one of the guys in particular said, I will not put someone on HRT or TRT unless their spouse is also doing that.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:Because it so changes the way you relate.
Speaker A:It so changes your sexual energy.
Speaker A:It's so changing your mood and mindset that it will ruin marriages if I don't do that.
Speaker A:So he's so, he's like, that's like one of my things as a Christian.
Speaker A:So I'm like, so if some couple in their 50s comes and like, oh, and he's like tired, maybe even has ED going on, is just like a dragon, you know, and you test his testosterone.
Speaker A:So tip like with the bell curve of the medical community because there's normal is like 300 and 900.
Speaker A:His is like 275 or something like that.
Speaker A:Like, it's, it's like technically clinically low, but also it's not like, yeah, inflaming his heart valves.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'd say, like, this is something you and your wife have to do together because I will not compromise oneness for your sense of well being.
Speaker A:And I think that was like, that was one hand.
Speaker A:Just illustrated to me the severity of the psychoactive nature of it.
Speaker A:I mean, and we do a lot of things that are psychoactive.
Speaker A:Caffeine is psychoactive.
Speaker A:So saying TRT is psychoactive is not a radical statement, but saying it's not psychoactive is a radical statement because you're going, the reason you're doing it is for psychoactive benefit.
Speaker A:Like, you want more energy.
Speaker A:What do you think psychoactive is?
Speaker A:Like, it's that type of thing.
Speaker A:So that's the view.
Speaker A:I mean, I know test levels have been dropping for a very long time, and there's a lot of factors in that.
Speaker A:And we could talk about that ad nauseam for a long time time.
Speaker A:But I also talked to some guys who want to go on trt and I'm like, well, have you stopped drinking alcohol?
Speaker A:Have you worked on your sleep?
Speaker A:Have you cleaned up your diet?
Speaker A:Have you been hitting the gym?
Speaker A:Have you been all the things that you can do to naturally boost or improve on testosterone?
Speaker A:Oh, no, I'm not.
Speaker A:So there is an element of sloth that is just a medicalized paganism or going like, I don't want to change my life.
Speaker A:I want to say the magic words and do the magic thing.
Speaker A:And then like, they want it to be magic.
Speaker A:That's what they.
Speaker A:That what they want.
Speaker A:And so I'll say likewise, like, I've.
Speaker A:I have other friend, like another friend who's on trt and like his.
Speaker A:He has like a tumor on his pituitary gland.
Speaker A:And so his test came back at like 70 and he's getting heart inflammation on his valves.
Speaker A:And it's like, can lead to premature death.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it's like, okay, this is a very level a medical situation.
Speaker A:This is not a guy who's like, I want my biceps bigger and my shirt's tighter.
Speaker A:This isn't like, there's a very real medical thing for some people that needs to be addressed.
Speaker A:Even some of my friends are like firemen.
Speaker A:It's like their sleep is all.
Speaker A:It's like irreparably damaged based on their vocation, like, serve the public good.
Speaker A:And I Go, okay, so there's like, I'm hesitant to call it sinful because I don't know people's hearts.
Speaker A:And I don't think it's sinful in every circumstance, but imprudent, often laziness sometimes.
Speaker A:But I do think the way it affects you in the way you relate, the hostility, the anger, the mood swing.
Speaker A:You know, people talk about women being more emotional.
Speaker A:I'm like, have you ever talked to a moody guy?
Speaker A:Like, like, guys are so emotional, they're maybe differently emotional.
Speaker A:But anger, depressed, moody, bad day, pouty.
Speaker A:Especially when they go on trt, it's like they call it roid rage for a reason, because it's a psychoactive substance.
Speaker A:And some people would say, well, TRT isn't steroids.
Speaker A:And I go, I think it by definition is.
Speaker A:It's an androgynous injected hormone.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:It's not great.
Speaker A:And so I have some other friends who are bodybuilders who are not Christians.
Speaker A:Like, maybe they're like kind of on the verge of becoming Christians, but they've told me, like, they are addicted to steroids.
Speaker A:Like, we're trying to have another kid.
Speaker A:We can't have one because of what I'm taking.
Speaker A:I don't know how to stop.
Speaker A:Like, the body dysmorphia is like too, it's too much, right?
Speaker A:And so, like I'm.
Speaker A:I'm finding myself having to like counsel shepherd people through putting down the needle for the sake of loving their kids well, loving their wife well, loving their thing.
Speaker A:And so I do think it's a bit of a trap.
Speaker A:And especially when the motive is the mirror.
Speaker A:That mirror will like, there's an Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary on Netflix I watched a couple years ago, and he talked about how even when he was Mr.
Speaker A:Olympia, he'd look in the mirror and think, who's that fat, scrawny skin, skinny loser who won?
Speaker A:And this is Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Speaker A:So if you think the mirror.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:If you think that you're going to like develop a healthy view of self through the mirror at the gym, I'm telling you, it's a black hole.
Speaker A:It will eat you alive.
Speaker A:And even the best looking person objectively, possibly in the history of the world had body dysmorphia while he was on the stage winning his Mr.
Speaker A:Olympia thing.
Speaker A:And so I do think there is an over promise under delivered to all types of sin.
Speaker A:And I think the kind of the vainglory to use the old seven deadly sin or vice thing, the vain glory of it, it does harm people and it compromises your health and your relationships.
Speaker A:And I just think there's other ways.
Speaker A:If you're not doing it through ordinary means, you probably have no business doing it.
Speaker A:And certainly if you're not doing it medically supervised by someone who has a regard for you as a whole person, I just strongly, strongly advise against it.
Speaker B:I'm so glad you said all of that.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Because I've seen men in my personal life that were.
Speaker B:They didn't look or weren't living the way that they wanted to, and they got on TRT and they had a big burst of success, you know, and their life started getting momentum and it was like, bro, you are now hooked on that for life.
Speaker B:And then it escalated from there into bodybuilding and then active steroids and, you know, wanting to compete and all that different stuff.
Speaker B:And this, this friend, Christian, man, his personality changed so radically that he became unrecognizable in a very short time.
Speaker B:And it was very, very sad to watch for many reasons.
Speaker B:And I just watched that happen.
Speaker B:And then there was a period of time where he went off of it and he just deflated.
Speaker B:He just deflated like a balloon.
Speaker B:And he was worse off than he was before he started.
Speaker B:And so it was really stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Speaker B:Like, either getting back on this exogenous, you know, hormone for life.
Speaker B:For life as.
Speaker B:As a young man, too.
Speaker B:Like, he wasn't in his 50s.
Speaker B:He was significantly younger than that, or you live in this kind of diminished state where your body is no longer producing testosterone.
Speaker B:It will slowly work its way back to it maybe to some degree.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And like, I can understand if a guy like you said is in his 50s.
Speaker B:You know, he's just dragging and not sleeping well and like, and all of that, you know, all things being equal, or he's had.
Speaker B:He has some sort of like, grade A medical condition, or he's just so massively disrupted to sleep patterns like a fireman, where.
Speaker B:Yeah, okay, so we can see an actual medical cause for this intervention.
Speaker B:But when you have guys that are in their young twenties that are just getting on this stuff because they saw someone on Instagram or TikTok do it, you know, they're barely not teenagers anymore.
Speaker B:And like, congratulations, you just signed up for this, for life.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, it's heart wrenching.
Speaker A:There's a guy I met at the gym, like, five or six months ago, and he's my age, 34, and he's been on testosterone for 20 years because his high School football coach put him on it and you go.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:So some guys listening to this may be like stuck on this stuff and it's not really their fault.
Speaker A:Like they got pushed it on him and now it's just a bummer.
Speaker A:And I think it's worth sharing stories about that too that it's pretty to hard, hard to come back from.
Speaker A:And I do think like the youth obsessed, porn obsessed culture, like there's just more of a fear of aging and a disdain for aging than there has been before.
Speaker A:Like the, the Bible calls gray hair a crown of glory.
Speaker A:And you know you're bald so you don't have any of that crown of glory.
Speaker A:But a little bit on my beard.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I got some on the chin.
Speaker A:You know I say I have gray hair for about every elder meeting I've been to.
Speaker A:Uh, but like I know it's easy to say as a young man right now, but I do think one of the ways I aspire to be countercultural is to age and not amen and not inject lift my way out of aging and to, to become an elder when I'm an elder and to look like one and be okay with it and to care about health span over beauty span and try to have my values change.
Speaker A:And, and so something my wife and I have talked about a bit like, you know, we are just getting to that time.
Speaker A:We're like, how are we going to handle the next 30 years?
Speaker A:Because gravity and time always wins.
Speaker A:What are we going to do?
Speaker A:And I do think there's an aligning of values that needs to happen on how we want to approach aging, wrinkling, sagging, because it's going to happen and there's a trap on believing that you can prevent it forever.
Speaker A:And again, I do think there's a lot of matter of conscience on this.
Speaker A:I don't want to bind.
Speaker A:And I do think how people process that is they have to process it personally.
Speaker A:And there is like a.
Speaker A:I don't want to speak beyond these scriptures or bind the conscience, but I also want to go, this is a cultural idol, broadly speaking is the glorification of appearance and beauty.
Speaker A:And we can't pretend like that doesn't bleed into our heart, mind and soul.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The world wants to get into us.
Speaker A:Know we, the Babylon creeps into the heart of Israel and America creeps into the heart of the church.
Speaker A:That's just certainly true.
Speaker A:And so we're way more tempted to sin like our neighbors than we're tempted to sin like people halfway across the globe.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:One of my, one of my close friends, men named Jonathan, he's been on the podcast a number of times.
Speaker B:He gave me a great line about this that I'll never forget.
Speaker B:He said, the glory of young men is their strength.
Speaker B:And as you age as a man, your strength is supposed to go from outward, outwards to inwards.
Speaker B:Like as you become an older man and you lose your outer strength, you're supposed to gain your inner strength.
Speaker B:And the glory of young women is their beauty.
Speaker B:And as they age, their beauty is supposed to go from outwards to inwards, meaning an outwards expression inwards.
Speaker B:And I really love that idea that we're supposed to take what's outer and internalize it as we get older.
Speaker B:Because, you know, I came into the manosphere through what's called the mythopoetic men's movement, which is very heavily focused on psychology and young and trauma and all that different stuff.
Speaker B:But the one thing that I can say, say is that it, it brought together men of a variety of ages.
Speaker B:So there were 18 year old men on these retreats, up to 70 year old men.
Speaker B:So here's the full spectrum of the masculine lifespan.
Speaker B:I think there may even been an 80 year old man on one of them.
Speaker B:So here's the full spectrum of the masculine lifespan where no one can just silo themselves into collections of youth versus age.
Speaker B:It's like, no, this is actually.
Speaker B:If you should be blessed enough to be a man to live into your 80s, how are you going to deal with that?
Speaker B:Are you always going to be looking back to when you were like 18 and awesome, or are you going to go into gracefully?
Speaker B:And since I saw that, it's something that I've reflected on living in such a way that I can internalize, metabolize my life experience so that when I reach 80, Lord willing, I'm not just an old man, but I'm an elder, that I've metabolized life experience and can pass along wisdom to those who want to hear it rather than just, you know, an old man who's looking back at his youth and wishing or wondering what could have been.
Speaker B:And I think in our youth obsessed culture, which you very rightly point out, that's thrown out the window like middle age, you're practically dead old man, man.
Speaker B:It's like, no, middle age is a time of deepening, a time of growth, a time of a, a time of maturation and development to transition to the next phase.
Speaker B:But so many guys are so terrified of it and they consider themselves Dead, once they turn, what, 30, 35 or 40, it's like, no, that's the wrong way of thinking about it.
Speaker B:In many ways, your life is just beginning.
Speaker B:And that's a.
Speaker B:That's a wisdom that our culture does not like at all.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:Well, if nothing happens when you die, like if you're a nihilist, then the, the way you medicate, that is through heeding hedonism.
Speaker A:It's like, well, you got to get it while you can.
Speaker A:And there's no vision for wisdom, maturity, or certainly no vision for life after death.
Speaker A:You think about Christ endured the cross for the joy set before him.
Speaker A:His capacity to do what was hard and difficult was motivated by the joy of obedience, the joy of being with God.
Speaker A:And so if we think we're going to age well and we don't have this sense of well for the joy, the joy of intimacy with the Lord.
Speaker A:The way that early church thought about the wisdom literature was very seasonal.
Speaker A:Like, the book of Proverbs was presumed to be mostly a young man's book.
Speaker A:Because your biggest problem when you're young is you're a fool and you're going to fall for it and the women are going to seduce you and you're going to be an idiot.
Speaker A:And like a lamb led to the slaughter, you're going to go all at once to the woman who's going to ruin your life.
Speaker A:It's like, that's Proverbs 7, my summary of it.
Speaker A:And there's all these, like, other, like, talk about foolishness.
Speaker A:And Basically, until you're 40, you're considered a young man and you're 40, foolish.
Speaker A:And I think even, like, when Paul writes to Timothy, let no one look down on you because you're young.
Speaker A:Timothy was probably in his early 30s when he wrote that.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:It was like, I remember reading that when I was 15, being like, yeah, nobody looked down on me because I'm young.
Speaker A:And it's like that probably like when Paul's telling Timothy you're a young man, he's probably in his early 30s.
Speaker A:And so Proverbs is like a young man's book.
Speaker A:Then you get like, the Ecclesiastes was like more kind of like middle age, middle aged, when, like, this point probably had some worldly success.
Speaker A:You've accumulated some sex, money and power.
Speaker A:Like, Solomon has all this stuff, and he's like, I got all the things and vapor, vapor, all his vapor.
Speaker A:It's like a mist.
Speaker A:It comes and it goes, and you're kind of grappling with what is the real meaning of life at middle age?
Speaker A:And then the old person book was Song of Songs, because you're meant to, like, look forward to consummation with God upon your death.
Speaker A:And this idea of looking forward to death is like the most American thing you could possibly think about, like, going, man, the best is yet to come.
Speaker A:When you're 98 years old, the best is yet to come.
Speaker A:You got to be kidding me.
Speaker A:But yet, the best is always yet to come, no matter what age you are.
Speaker A:And it's just receiving life's different invitations to maturity and recognizing that what a meaningful life consists of is different.
Speaker A:And I think the hypersexual youth worship thing wants to absolutize women when they're 20 and men when they're 30 or something like that.
Speaker A:And everything's downhill for everybody after whatever that arbitrary age is.
Speaker A:I want to go.
Speaker A:No, the Christian says the best is yet to come.
Speaker A:Always, always.
Speaker A:And your 40s are rich and great and different than your 30s.
Speaker A:And the 50s are rich and great and different Than your 40s and the Lord's in every season.
Speaker A:And so the fear of aging, I think, is part of what we need to repent of.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker B:I think there's so much fear of taking next steps in our lives.
Speaker B:Whether marriage, I think, is a big one.
Speaker B:Maybe we can speak about this for a minute.
Speaker B:I actually, I know that there are a lot of people that are struggling with finding, you know, finding partners to court, let's say.
Speaker B:I know that that's a very real thing.
Speaker B:But I also think that there's a very real hesitation to actually meaningfully and sincerely engage with it from the deepest down level.
Speaker B:I've observed that there are a lot of men and women that will disqualify other good mates because they recognize that marriage is taking them towards a very significant, significant one way road of death to self marriage and childbearing especially.
Speaker B:And that's very much a form of death, like your single life.
Speaker B:Trust me, I know.
Speaker B:Like, I'm engaged.
Speaker B:The wedding is, you know, about 40 days away at this point.
Speaker B:And so congrats, by the way.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:I'm very, very excited.
Speaker B:Traveling up to visit her tomorrow, actually.
Speaker B:And I'm looking at this at my single life, which has been extended beyond most men's.
Speaker B:And I'm looking at a very significant death to self.
Speaker B:And I'm excited.
Speaker B:And I'm also recognizing that it's very real.
Speaker B:It's very, very real.
Speaker B:And, you know, not to go into with with dread, but enthusiasm.
Speaker B:And not to, you know, reluctantly surrender the things of youth, but to be grateful for them in the season that I have them and trust, you know, trust in the time that I've remaining and take that step.
Speaker B:And I think that there are so many, both men and women, that actually on some level they will avoid or push people away that would otherwise be good candidates because they fear that death to self as a reflection of our large, our culture's larger fear.
Speaker B:Fear of death in general.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that's totally true.
Speaker A:There ends up being this like idealism that is naive and it's self protective at the same time.
Speaker A:Like, I, I went.
Speaker A:We had a, I think we had probably 60 high school seniors, maybe 30 of them were, were, were boys this past year.
Speaker A:And I did some Q and A with them.
Speaker A:And one of the questions I got was about dating.
Speaker A:And they were asking for like dating advice and career advice and things like that.
Speaker A:And they, they were, they're only asking like, how did you know that your wife was the wife for you?
Speaker A:Like, because.
Speaker A:And I was like, well, I, I needed to be like generally attracted to her.
Speaker A:I think God uses ordinary means.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Like, I don't, I don't want to marry a woman and lie to her when I tell her I think she's beautiful.
Speaker A:That's not good.
Speaker A:It's not good for anybody.
Speaker A:Not good for her, not good for me.
Speaker A:And so I'd be generally attracted to her.
Speaker A:And I do think men especially need to recognize that like their tastes have largely been shaped by evil pornography consumption.
Speaker A:And so that needs to be sanctified and that needs to be repented of, that needs to be processed, that needs to be worked through.
Speaker A:This idea that people have types, I think is just wild consumer culture and just weird.
Speaker A:And so I do think the more you cultivate purity, the more what's attractive to you about other people is holy.
Speaker A:And it's something that is like God ordered.
Speaker A:So I do think attractive thing gets kind of weirded out because of how much pornography is shaped, especially Gen Z, you know, Like I didn't have a smartphone till I was a freshman in college, so I just missed the boat on everyone having porn in high school.
Speaker A:You know, like that was, it was like the, the people right on my heels who.
Speaker A:That was a.
Speaker A:You had to go through adolescence with everyone at recess having safari access.
Speaker A:So I missed that.
Speaker A:And I'm so thankful for it.
Speaker B:Is God.
Speaker A:So there's a general attraction there has to like, you want someone who's like, has the Same general worldview as you.
Speaker A:I don't think they need to agree with you on every finer point of doctrine.
Speaker A:But like the meaning of life, the goal of life, the purpose of life, the death and resurrection of Jesus, someone who they can be equally yolked to, that you're going like, this person's going to affect me a ton.
Speaker A:And you know, in the Old Testament there's a lot of like examples of see what happens when Israel's kings marry foreign women.
Speaker A:The issue there isn't racism, it's idol worship.
Speaker A:You know, it's not the fact that they're foreigners, it's the fact that foreigners worship idols.
Speaker A:That's the problem.
Speaker A:And things get really bad.
Speaker A:And so you want to be equally yoked.
Speaker A:Someone who believes what you believe, someone who's going to raise your children in a worldview congruent with yours, that's a big deal.
Speaker A:And when you contemplate that, and the third one I said was someone who's low drama.
Speaker A:And when I said that, the whole room was like, why?
Speaker A:Like that's the one we've been missing.
Speaker A:That's the thing we've been losing out on.
Speaker A:Because I think attractive and follows Jesus is like kind of obviously, obviously, at least it should be.
Speaker A:But what I meant by that is, you know, someone who's comfortable in her own skin, who's not like using you for self esteem, who's not, you know, you know, the.
Speaker A:If you think about the kind of core masculine sins of like abuse and abandonment or abuse and abdication, a lot of Paul's letters talk about the core feminine sins as like being busy by bodies idle, not being productive.
Speaker A:And at least on the gendered lists of sins, you think about a busybody, somebody who's not minding her own business, she's prying herself in the business of other people.
Speaker A:It's like reading People magazine and being preoccupied with celebrity gossip and always knowing what's going on in everybody's life.
Speaker A:That's a high drama person.
Speaker A:And that doesn't go away unless it goes away on purpose.
Speaker A:And so you really want someone who's like, if you think about like, if like the feminine nurture goes awry when it's like nurturing in environments that has no business nurturing, that's like being a busy body.
Speaker A:Like it's care gone, gone astray.
Speaker A:You know, if chivalry gone astray is abuse or abandonment, nurture gone astray is busybodiness or like coldness or like devouring mother type stuff.
Speaker A:And so low drama was My summary word for a woman who's comfortable in her own skin, who doesn't need.
Speaker A:And if you kind of like on those three.
Speaker A:Actually, I think sometimes the third one's the most rare.
Speaker A:It's the hardest to find because people have been so under parented, so underfathered, so under mothered, so under discipled that if you can find a woman who's just like, is confident in God's love for her, confident in the death and resurrection of Jesus, confident in God's purpose for her life, life, marry her as fast as possible.
Speaker A:That's my, my general advice.
Speaker A:And that, that kind of like.
Speaker A:So we talked about the masculine virtues.
Speaker A:The other thing that as a follow up, I created a second pyramid that I called the masculine roles, which were son, brother, maker, husband, father.
Speaker B:Oh yes.
Speaker A:And so the foundation is son, because everyone is someone's son without exception.
Speaker A:And there's a lot of data in the proverbs about being a son.
Speaker A:And I said like, the task there is to, to be mindful of your generational patterns and maintain them or break them as necessary and really with the idea of being the type of man that a wise father would be proud of, not a type of man that your father would be proud of, but the type of man that a wise father be proud of.
Speaker A:Because the proverbs are filled with the idea of a foolish son bringing shame to his father and bitterness to his mother.
Speaker A:And it's like sometimes our mothers and fathers are dead, sometimes they're total idiots, sometimes times they're wildly just dysfunctional people.
Speaker A:And some people are preoccupied with making their dad proud, but their dad stinks.
Speaker A:And it's like, if your dad was a wise man, what type of man would you become to make him proud?
Speaker A:So that's the son piece.
Speaker A:And that's like, I think one of the hardest pieces is.
Speaker A:And there's a sense in which like, no, my son is 5.
Speaker A:And now there's all this stuff about like, now I have memories of what my dad was like when I was five.
Speaker A:Five.
Speaker A:And so now there's like a type of like generational work that you never graduate from because, you know, like, how was my dad to me when I was five?
Speaker A:Well, now I'm.
Speaker A:You've your instincts come out parenting they didn't know existed.
Speaker A:And I remember when I got married, that was a big.
Speaker A:Right, okay, my parents had a pretty good marriage, but it wasn't perfect.
Speaker A:What do I want to do the same?
Speaker A:What do I want to do different?
Speaker A:And then you become a child, you Become a parent.
Speaker A:And it's like the same type of thing.
Speaker A:Then it's my child's an adult.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:And so there's like processing through what generational patterns to break and what ones to maintain as part of that.
Speaker A:Then brothers like this, like fraternal appreciation and respect that we're like genuine.
Speaker A:Like David and Jonathan.
Speaker A:These guys loved each other.
Speaker A:They were great.
Speaker A:They were definitely not gay, no matter how much liberal mainliners want to say they were.
Speaker A:They just loved each other.
Speaker A:Like fraternal.
Speaker A:Good connection.
Speaker A:Then the text in 1 Timothy, Timothy where Paul says, treat younger women as sisters in all purity.
Speaker A:Like, I want to interact with women like they're my sisters.
Speaker A:And in that sense it kind of turns all lust into incest, which is a whole separate motivation to like stay, fight for purity.
Speaker A:Then maker is like my theology of work, like to subdue and have dominion to tend to your garden.
Speaker A:Like when God puts Adam on the earth, says there was no man to work the ground, and so he puts Adam on the earth to serve and protect that garden.
Speaker A:And that's before he made Eve.
Speaker A:So there's something about masculine work, masculine like sphere keeping, garden tending that, you know, the subdued dominion, fruit to multiply is said to both Adam and Eve.
Speaker A:But the servant keep work.
Speaker A:The garden was said to just Adam.
Speaker A:So there's something inherently masculine about the work.
Speaker A:I do think the way the curse is assigned as well, the subdued dominion is more cursed for Adam.
Speaker A:Like God tells Adam, by the sweat of your brow you'll provide.
Speaker A:But then he tells the woman.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker A:Pain, you shall bring forth children.
Speaker A:And so subdued dominion is like culture making work and they share it together.
Speaker A:But Adam shares the brunt of the curse.
Speaker A:The fruitful multiply thing obviously takes both a man and a woman, but the woman kind of takes the brunt of that curse.
Speaker A:So it's like a shared task.
Speaker A:Both disparate effects of the curse.
Speaker A:So that's like the maker piece.
Speaker A:And then the husband is like really be a.
Speaker A:Find a wife, take a wife, cherish her, nourish her.
Speaker A:Those Ephesians 5 words, I think are my two favorite biblical words about what is a good husband.
Speaker A:Well, he cherishes, he treats as precious and he nourishes, which is like anticipating and fulfilling needs, as you know, which is different from wife to wife.
Speaker A:And the father pieces, like what you said earlier, like, I want to be in, even if I'm never in the office of elder, I want to be elder qualified.
Speaker A:I want to be multi generational in my view of the Faith.
Speaker A:I obviously chiefly want to, like, like, love my kids, but then beyond that, I want to be a father to the household of faith.
Speaker A:And so those are more like the roles that second pyramid, which is so it said about the book.
Speaker A:So those are the nine chapters in my book.
Speaker A:Humility, discipline, responsibility, chivalry, son, brother, maker, husband, father.
Speaker A:They're kind of two pyramids.
Speaker A:And so I'm excited to bring it to the world.
Speaker A:It's not coming out for a long time, but something about publishers having goals and stuff, so.
Speaker A:But I'm excited.
Speaker A:Excited about it.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:I hope everyone can hear how complete and informative and scriptural and.
Speaker B:And directional the both of those frameworks are.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like, I hear you describe them.
Speaker B:And they're like, yes, okay, that fits with everything that I've learned in the manosphere, but I've learned in my life as well.
Speaker B:It fits into biblical categories.
Speaker B:And it's something that I can start building on and acting on immediately in all these different roles.
Speaker B:And I especially like how you're.
Speaker B:How you're unapologetic and saying, man is not woman.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And that's like.
Speaker B:That's a sadly, a controversial statement to make.
Speaker B:The observation, like, yeah, Eve didn't get her own garden.
Speaker B:You know, like, that's.
Speaker B:I don't remember that scene.
Speaker B:But it's so important to be able to differentiate men from women today in.
Speaker B:In really clear ways that are controversial, difficult.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, for some, they are.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I don't consider them that.
Speaker B:I don't consider them to be.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I think it dishonors both men and women when we pretend other otherwise.
Speaker B:But what I like about both these frameworks, and I think everyone listening will agree, is like, yeah, okay, I can really do something about that.
Speaker B:And I can apply that set of concepts to my life and start acting in these various ways that are distinctively masculine to improve the quality of my life.
Speaker B:And so I appreciate the time and thought and energy you've put into developing them, because I think they're accurate and helpful.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I appreciate that it's chiefly out of personal need.
Speaker A:Like, I'm thinking, I have a son who's five.
Speaker A:I need to form him.
Speaker A:I need to shape him.
Speaker A:Like, the book will be dedicated to Jay, my son.
Speaker A:You know, my.
Speaker A:My image and likeness.
Speaker A:And that's part of what's terrifying about being a dad is I pass on my image and likeness, which is partially faithful, partially unfaithful to my child.
Speaker A:And so he will imitate my sin.
Speaker A:He will imitate My righteousness and.
Speaker A:But it's my job, job to do my best to pass on the faith to him and what it means to be a man, what it means to follow Jesus as a man.
Speaker A:And so I've really developed a lot of this, really thinking about him.
Speaker A:Obviously he's not going to read the book when he's six, when the book comes out.
Speaker A:But the concepts, I hope, translate to a little whiteboard and we can talk about it.
Speaker A:And when he's more literate, I don't know what, I don't know, age development on literacy, 9 or 11 or 12, I don't know.
Speaker A:Hopefully he'll be able to read it and appreciate it and it'll sink into the soul of his heart and energize him for his life.
Speaker A:Because I love that little kid right now.
Speaker A:But one day he's going to be a man and he will hopefully be a better man than me.
Speaker A:And that's really what was energizing my soul as I was typing all this out.
Speaker B:And it's so real how becoming a husband and becoming a father, father, just as a complete reformulation of everything.
Speaker B:Like I'm experiencing that in my own, in my own life as I'm approaching that, just the ways my own mind is changing and transforming the way I think about my everyday life, knowing that, you know, that I'm engaged and I'll be.
Speaker B:And I'll be a husband and a father soon.
Speaker B:And so you know that you produce this book, that you, you crystallize all of your knowledge into these frameworks so that you can pass on something of value to your.
Speaker B:To your son, so you can raise him up.
Speaker B:And the nurture and admonition of the Lord, so how that shows up in his everyday life as well, how shall we now live?
Speaker B:Is just.
Speaker B:It's a really beautiful story.
Speaker B:And I think that's what we're supposed to do.
Speaker B:Maybe not everyone needs to write a book about it, but it's like not what is the financial inheritance that you're passing to your son, but what is the spiritual practical inheritance that you're passing on that will last so long.
Speaker B:And I think there are so many men that they don't think about that because their fathers didn't think about that.
Speaker B:And so that generational father hunger gap under fatherlessness, you know, is being filled by men who maybe not in your case, like your dad was around and you had this good relationship with him, but to be able to fill in those gaps for other men that didn't have that is just It's a real gift, especially in the Christian world.
Speaker B:Like, there's a lot more Christian writing about masculinity than I think I thought there was.
Speaker B:And I have a lot of catching up now that I've done all the manosphere reading, but like, to put it together in that way I think will be really useful for men.
Speaker A:Well, I hope so.
Speaker A:And your encouragement about it goes a long way because of your history, your background.
Speaker A:And I do feel like, like you said, I've been kind of under red in it.
Speaker A:I think it was last year year I read a couple dozen books about it because I was like, well, I'm about to write a book.
Speaker A:I better not say the same stuff everybody else is saying.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that was a move there.
Speaker A:But I appreciate your encouragement.
Speaker A:I appreciate you having me on your podcast.
Speaker A:It's been a joy to get to know you and talk with you.
Speaker A:Will.
Speaker A:It means a lot you as well, Seth.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:So where would you like to send men to find out more about you and what you do?
Speaker A:So I'm low active on Instagram, Seth Trout.
Speaker A:Um, I'm more active on x sethtrout t r o u t t my website, seth trout.com I do write a lot of articles.
Speaker A:You can check out the articles there.
Speaker A:I'm also selling a shirt right now that I just had designed.
Speaker A:I don't know when this comes out, but it's no deadbeat dads.
Speaker A:And I say, you know, a dad, it's a silverback with the baby gorilla.
Speaker A:And you know, I say the ABCs of fatherhood are affection, blessing and correction.
Speaker A:And a deadbeat dad doesn't have to leave his child.
Speaker A:He can also just withhold affection, blessing and correction from his child.
Speaker A:So it's kind of a fun shirt.
Speaker A:I had a buddy who has T shirt company going on.
Speaker A:Sethtrout.com Again, T R O U T T People tend to misspell my name because Mike Trout and the fish Trout.
Speaker A:But that extra T on the end, you check it out there.
Speaker A:And that's basically all I got going on.
Speaker A:Also, if you live in Southeast valley of Arizona, Ironwood Church coming by.
Speaker A:I'm around after service.
Speaker A:Love to.
Speaker A:Love to shake your hand and hear about what the Lord's doing in your life.
Speaker B:Wonderful.
Speaker B:Thank you so much, Seth.
Speaker B:I'll send everyone there.
Speaker B:And I can't wait to check out that shirt.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Thanks, Sam.
