ANDREW & SAMUEL BORNMAN and PARKER BROWN - Engaging with Culture: Insights from Missionaries and Storytellers (FLF 3)

Will Spencer: 00:00:49

Hello, my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the Will Spencer Podcast.

Will Spencer: 00:00:53

This is a weekly show featuring in depth conversations with authors, leaders and influencers who help us understand our changing world.

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New episodes release every Friday.

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Okay, everyone, buckle up for the finale.

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eries which I recorded at the: 2024

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That conference was just over a month ago now, right before the presidential election.

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And following that kind of big deal, it almost feels like we couldn't be living in a more different world from back then.

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If you've been tracking this series, the first episode featured Isaac Botkin from T.

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Rex Arms and Logan Reiser from Crux glass.

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And the second episode featured a full hour with the legendary Dr.

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James White, plus Jim Hunter from Alps Precious Metals Group.

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Now we're about to go somewhere entirely unexpected.

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This final episode features three fascinating men I encountered at the conference, each with a story that'll help you think in new ways about topics like evangelism, cultural engagement and Christian leadership.

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First up is Andrew Bornman, a missionary farmer.

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Without your typical missionary story, imagine walking away from everything comfortable to live among a native tribe in a remote Mexican village.

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Andrew didn't just move there, he became part of the community, navigating a landscape of paganism, violence and crushing poverty.

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His tale of earning trust, learning culture, and ultimately preaching the gospel is going to open your eyes.

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We're talking about real world spiritual warfare where every conversation could mean the difference between connection and rejection.

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Then, and this is where it gets even more interesting, I talked to his son Samuel.

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Picture this.

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Day two of the conference.

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This young man walks up to me, hands me his book entitled Of Wizards and A Tale of Enyaw.

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And with total confidence, he asks to be on the show.

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Not timidly, not apologetically, but with the kind of boldness that makes you take notice.

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I'll be honest, I was so impressed that I had to say yes.

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And here's the description of Samuel's book.

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Stout had everything he could parents, a good home and a safe life.

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Then one day, everything changed.

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The armies of an evil wizard named Kaukulo destroyed Stout's home and killed his parents.

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Stout joins the Forgotten Order of the Knights of Light and trains to take on the quest of destroying Calculo.

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End quote.

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And my conversation with Samuel was easily one of the most memorable of my entire weekend.

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Samuel represents something I'm passionate about.

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A generation learning to speak up, to ask for what they want, with a mixture of humility and genuine confidence in their work.

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Now, if those sound like contradictions, believe me, they're not.

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This is the kind of young leadership our culture needs today.

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And for the finale, I sit down with Parker Brown, a husband, father, video producer, and host of what might be the most innovative podcast I've discovered this year, the Watch well Podcast.

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This isn't just another movie review show.

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This is deep cultural analysis of film through a Christian lens.

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Parker does something unique in modern Christian apologetics.

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He takes our favorite movies and asks the dangerous question, what are these storytellers actually teaching us?

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In the process, he reveals how incoherent their worldviews are.

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For example, take my recent appearance on his show to talk about Guardians of the Galaxy 2, an episode which should be out the same day as this podcast.

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You can check for a link in the show notes.

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Now, on the surface, Guardians 2 is just another Marvel movie, but I think it's actually one of the most profound meditations on father hunger in modern pop culture.

Will Spencer: 00:04:28

And these are the topics that I think really matter for men today, the ones that make you see familiar things in completely new ways.

Will Spencer: 00:04:36

So I hope that by this time next year, Watch well makes it onto your top five on Spotify and that will conclude this series.

Will Spencer: 00:04:43

I hope you've gotten a feel for the conference and a glimpse of the extraordinary caliber of the men gathered there.

Will Spencer: 00:04:49

As I said in episode one, I was blown away by Fight, Laugh, Feast in general and got way more than I bargained for in the best ways possible.

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Thanks to Gabe, Toby Knox and the whole team for making something truly special, needed and fun.

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Now, friends, we're not just recording conversations on the Will Spencer Podcast.

Will Spencer: 00:05:08

We're part of a restoration project for Christian civilization in the west and I need you in this fight with me.

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There are a couple ways you can join this mission.

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First, when you stop by Spotify or Apple Podcasts, don't just hit that five star button and run.

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Take a minute to write out how these conversations impacted you.

Will Spencer: 00:05:25

Your words might be exactly what someone else needs to hear to give the show their first listen.

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And you know those conversations that hit you right between the eyes, the ones that shifted your thinking?

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Share those episodes.

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Not because I'm chasing downloads, but because we're in a war for the soul of our culture.

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And these conversations are ammunition for the right side.

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For those ready to go deeper with us, head over to willspencerpod.substack.com and become a paid subscriber.

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You'll get access to ad free interviews and exclusive content, but here's what really matters.

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When you see our sponsors names, remember that they're not just businesses, they're allies, building Christian economic strength for generations to come.

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Supporting them isn't just opening your wallet.

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It's investing in an American reformation.

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Because this isn't about entertainment anymore.

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This is economic warfare in service of the kingdom.

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And please welcome this week's guest on the podcast, the missionary farmer, Andrew Borman.

Will Spencer: 00:06:19

His son, the author Samuel.

Will Spencer: 00:06:21

And from the Watch well podcast, which you need to be listening to, Parker Brown.

Andrew Bornman: 00:06:28

Andrew, thanks for sitting down for the podcast.

Andrew Bornman: 00:06:31

We just had the chance to meet a moment ago and you were getting into telling me some of your missionary work down in Mexico.

Andrew Bornman: 00:06:36

So maybe just introduce yourself and talk a little bit about what you're doing and what brings you to fight.

Samuel Bornman: 00:06:40

Lafayette yes.

Samuel Bornman: 00:06:42

My name is Andrew bornman.

Samuel Bornman: 00:06:43

I am missionaryfarmer.com I am a farm boy that grew up and God called me the mission field.

Samuel Bornman: 00:06:52

When I heard about the Tarahumara Indians in Mexico and the fact that there's a terrible problem with childhood malnutrition, a high death rate in children.

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:02

Currently somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% of children do not make it to age 5.

Andrew Bornman: 00:07:07

Oh, wow.

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:09

And less than 1% of the population are genuine Christian believers.

Andrew Bornman: 00:07:14

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:15

And I said, oh my God, how could I turn around and look at my kids?

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:19

And I'm praying, saying, God, how in the world could I live without one of my two children?

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:24

We now are blessed with four, but at the time we had two.

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:27

So it was: 2003

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:29

moved my family in Mexico in: 2005

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:40

What was needed is to solve the problem is transforming hearts and minds through the gospel.

Andrew Bornman: 00:07:47

Oh, interesting.

Andrew Bornman: 00:07:48

So talk a little bit about that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:07:51

How did you discover that that was the particular problem, not the food itself?

Andrew Bornman: 00:07:55

Does it seem that malnutrition, you give people food?

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:58

Yeah, but there's more to it.

Samuel Bornman: 00:07:59

There's a lot more to it.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:01

I think the thing that really helped me understand what was going on was seeing the enormous quantities of food that are produced in the region.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:10

And then shortly, months after harvest, people are hungry.

Andrew Bornman: 00:08:16

Interesting.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:17

And so the majority of the food produced does not end up being utilized to feed humans.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:24

So you have entire orchards that have been planted in the past, and the fruit lays on the ground and rots.

Andrew Bornman: 00:08:31

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:31

As I was talking with one guy, I said, so it's kind of like you eat apples and peaches in season until you're sick to the Stomach.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:41

And a couple months later you do about anything to get an apple.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:45

Yeah, okay.

Andrew Bornman: 00:08:46

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:47

That's how it is.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:48

And so that's.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:50

And it's not like they don't have tech, low tech solutions for preserving food.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:55

Anybody in a dry climate can easily dry food.

Samuel Bornman: 00:08:57

Like there's almost zero effort.

Samuel Bornman: 00:09:01

And so it's not about, it's not primarily about ignorance.

Samuel Bornman: 00:09:06

Ignorance is a factor, but it's primarily about values and whether you believe that there will be a tomorrow.

Samuel Bornman: 00:09:13

Do I have reason to be confident the sun is going to come up?

Samuel Bornman: 00:09:17

Do I have a reason to be confident that the rains will come when they usually come?

Samuel Bornman: 00:09:23

And if you have a pagan worldview and you believe as the Tarahumara people do, that their religious worship sustains God.

Samuel Bornman: 00:09:33

God is not self sustaining.

Samuel Bornman: 00:09:34

God is dependent on their sacrifices and their worships worship to continue to sustain the world.

Samuel Bornman: 00:09:42

So it's this circle circular thinking that they are dependent on a God who has depended on them.

Andrew Bornman: 00:09:53

Okay, so I understand the worldview.

Andrew Bornman: 00:09:56

How do they believe their own sacrifices support God?

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:01

And what would happen if they stopped?

Will Spencer: 00:10:02

Sacrifice?

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:03

The world would cease.

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:04

They believe that the whole world would stop if they stopped.

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:08

So the people in Texas want to know what they're sacrificing.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:12

Goats, usually.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:14

And corn beer.

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:16

Cornmeal.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:17

Corn beer.

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:18

Corn beer, yes.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:19

So like the central feature of the society is this gathering.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:24

It's like a drinking network.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:25

It's the cohesive force in the society where you get together with your extended network of relationships.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:32

And you dance prayers, they're danced outdoors so the sun and moon can see the dance.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:39

Because the moon is father God.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:41

The.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:42

The moon is mother God and the sun is father God.

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:45

Okay.

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:45

Yeah, very.

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:45

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:46

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:46

So it's very typical paganism, right?

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:49

Yeah.

Samuel Bornman: 00:10:51

And their offerings nourish the gods.

Andrew Bornman: 00:10:58

That's really interesting because.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:00

And so you sitting here in Texas owe your life to their acts of worship.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:06

That is how they see it.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:08

Really.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:09

And so.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:10

But if they're starving to death because they don't preserve enough food, like is the whole world just going to stop?

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:19

I didn't think that far ahead.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:20

So this is what.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:21

So you see how it's a worldview that has no future.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:25

Correct.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:26

No future without.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:27

It's maybe it's maybe, maybe God will hear.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:30

Maybe God will send the rain.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:32

Maybe we'll keep scraping by.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:34

And so to come in saying, I serve a good God.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:38

Yes, yes.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:38

Who has promised rain and harvest until the end of time.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:45

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:46

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:47

That is just a mind blowing difference.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:52

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:52

That God is abundant in himself.

Andrew Bornman: 00:11:55

And is not reliant on us to sustain him.

Samuel Bornman: 00:11:59

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:00

That's so interesting, because I've been thinking.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:02

I can't remember the context I was thinking about, but I was thinking about the human sacrifice of the Aztecs.

Samuel Bornman: 00:12:07

Sure.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:07

You know, thousands and thousands and thousands.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:10

Right.

Parker Brown: 00:12:10

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:10

I had never considered that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:11

Possibly one of the theological ideas behind it is that human blood is actually required to sustain the gods, not merely to appease them, but to sustain them.

Samuel Bornman: 00:12:21

No, it's not.

Samuel Bornman: 00:12:22

It's about sustaining.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:23

That's wild.

Samuel Bornman: 00:12:25

So God is dependent on his creation.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:29

What an ultimate.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:30

What an ultimate idolatry of self.

Samuel Bornman: 00:12:33

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:34

Right.

Samuel Bornman: 00:12:34

And it's particularly disturbing that the Tarahumara have had over 400 years of contact with Christianity in the form of Catholicism.

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:43

Okay.

Will Spencer: 00:12:44

Yeah.

Samuel Bornman: 00:12:44

Well, since the: 1940

Andrew Bornman: 00:12:52

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:12:53

And yet we still have a very, very small percentage of the population who's converted, and we have a larger percentage of the population who have converted to heresies.

Andrew Bornman: 00:13:06

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:06

So you have oneness.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:08

Pentecostalism, Like Jesus only.

Andrew Bornman: 00:13:10

Yeah.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:11

A lot of prosperity gospel.

Andrew Bornman: 00:13:15

Even more damaging.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:17

Yeah.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:17

These are destructive things.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:19

These do not build the kingdom of God.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:21

They do not produce human flourishing.

Andrew Bornman: 00:13:23

Yes.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:25

And the true gospel does produce human flourishing.

Andrew Bornman: 00:13:29

So as you've taken these ideas down to them, what has the response been among these communities that you're a missionary to?

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:38

So mostly indifference, really?

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:42

Yes, mostly indifference.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:46

They are very suspicious of outsiders.

Andrew Bornman: 00:13:49

Sure.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:50

Like, more so than any other people I've dealt with.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:54

I've traveled quite a bit.

Samuel Bornman: 00:13:57

I've never met people who are so close to outsiders.

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:01

But praise God, we've gotten past that through acts of service, through being good neighbors, through saving lives physically, that sort of thing.

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:11

And people start to say, this is different.

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:14

And I had an opportunity.

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:16

We were at a funeral party for one of our neighbor's wives and women.

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:22

Their funerals take four years to complete.

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:24

Their funerals take four years to complete?

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:27

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:27

How long do men's funerals take?

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:29

3 years.

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:30

This is interesting.

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:32

Why so long?

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:33

And why the difference?

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:34

Well, women walk slower than men, so it takes them longer to reach their afterlife destination.

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:41

They have to walk there?

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:42

Yes.

Will Spencer: 00:14:43

Which way is it?

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:45

We don't know.

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:46

That's not a question I know how to answer.

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:48

Exactly.

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:49

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:50

That's the answer.

Samuel Bornman: 00:14:51

And I think if you asked that question, people would just kind of look at you like, are you dumb?

Andrew Bornman: 00:14:57

Yes, I might actually be.

Samuel Bornman: 00:15:00

So I was at this party, and so you get together and you drink the homebrewed Corn beer.

Andrew Bornman: 00:15:08

The corn beer.

Andrew Bornman: 00:15:08

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:15:09

And that is the key entry into the society is to be a drinking and joking friend with someone.

Andrew Bornman: 00:15:17

Okay.

Andrew Bornman: 00:15:17

That makes sense.

Samuel Bornman: 00:15:18

And if you reject that, you have chopped off the possibility of relationship.

Andrew Bornman: 00:15:23

Sure.

Samuel Bornman: 00:15:24

And so the teetotalling missionaries who've preceded me cut themselves off from the culture by refusing to drink with the people.

Samuel Bornman: 00:15:37

Oh, because if I offer you a bowl of a gourd full of corn beer and you say no, it's like refusing to shake in somebody's refusing to shake an American's hand and spitting in his face.

Andrew Bornman: 00:15:50

Sure.

Samuel Bornman: 00:15:50

Like you've just destroyed the possibility of relationship.

Samuel Bornman: 00:15:54

But they drink with the goal of becoming drunk and reaching communion with the spirit realm.

Andrew Bornman: 00:15:59

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:16:00

Okay.

Andrew Bornman: 00:16:00

Very common.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:01

And so I maintain the biblical doctrine that drunkenness is sin.

Andrew Bornman: 00:16:10

Right, right.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:11

And so when my friends offer me corn beer, I say thank you.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:17

And then I return a gourd full to them.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:20

You're dipping out of a five gallon bucket.

Andrew Bornman: 00:16:22

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:22

And the flavor can range from something like water keep for like, to unmentionably bad.

Will Spencer: 00:16:30

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:16:31

Homebrew.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:34

And about the third or fourth gourd that they give me, I say, thank you, I've had enough.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:42

And they might press again, but people that know me no longer press.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:48

And I say, it would be shameful and disobedience to my God if I become drunk.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:54

I cannot do that.

Samuel Bornman: 00:16:57

My God says that's wrong.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:00

And people have always accepted that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:05

Yeah, that makes sense.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:06

Yeah.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:08

Other missionaries say, don't go to these events because it's dangerous.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:12

Well, yeah, it's dangerous.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:13

You're hanging out with 40 people drunk out of their minds.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:18

Crazy stuff happens.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:19

Communities do.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:20

Spirits.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:21

Yes.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:22

Communing with spirits.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:24

Crazy stuff happens.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:26

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:27

So have some situational awareness.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:30

Say the ambiance of this gathering is turning ugly.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:33

Hey, guys, I've got some work.

Will Spencer: 00:17:35

I gotta go.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:35

I gotta go.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:36

Yeah, exactly.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:37

It's real easy.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:40

Well, sort of.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:41

Does violence break out or.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:43

Murder is common.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:44

Murder's common.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:45

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:46

Rape is common.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:47

Incest is common.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:49

I mean, it's an ugly pagan gathering.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:54

What do you expect?

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:55

Sure.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:55

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:56

I mean, these are people without God.

Andrew Bornman: 00:17:59

Yes.

Samuel Bornman: 00:17:59

And so I was at this party about just over a year ago, a year and a half ago now, I suppose, with my neighbors.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:08

The second funeral party.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:11

You have a party on the.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:12

The anniversary of the death.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:16

And my neighbor, one of my neighbors, he's a big guy, leans over me, I'm sitting down and he says, tell me, why are you really here?

Andrew Bornman: 00:18:28

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:29

And I had this fear come over me, like I am Scared out of my wits.

Andrew Bornman: 00:18:36

Sure, you can feel it.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:38

The guy's somewhat aggressive.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:40

Everybody's drunk.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:42

What are you really here for?

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:44

You want land?

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:45

You want women?

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:47

Okay, what are you trying to get?

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:50

And I said, no, actually, I'm here because I want you to know God.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:56

I'm here to help you produce more food.

Samuel Bornman: 00:18:59

And the moment I was truthful about why I'm here, the entire environment changed spiritually.

Andrew Bornman: 00:19:09

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:19:10

The host of the party, they'd been playing a game where you toss.

Samuel Bornman: 00:19:16

You toss a little metal piece at a hole in the ground.

Andrew Bornman: 00:19:20

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:19:21

They've been playing the game.

Samuel Bornman: 00:19:22

Game ended.

Samuel Bornman: 00:19:24

The host goes and pulls out some chairs, and we sit around the fire.

Samuel Bornman: 00:20:57

We talked theology for two hours.

Will Spencer: 00:21:01

Really.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:01

We had a rising shaman there as a young man.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:07

Brother in law to the man who asked me, why are you really here?

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:11

And he opened up.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:13

He shared his theology with me.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:16

I shared my theology with him.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:19

And it was such an incredible opportunity, and it was powerful.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:25

Right.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:26

And I gained insight into some of why they do the things they do.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:31

And I've reached the conclusion that, as you know, one of them said something about how Christians often say hurtful things about them being pagans and hating God, and it's true.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:46

And at the same time, they genuinely want to reach the Creator and they do not know how.

Samuel Bornman: 00:21:57

And the church has often placed obstacles in their path by refusing fellowship.

Andrew Bornman: 00:22:03

Fair.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:04

Yeah.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:05

And so by being willing to get sick as a dog, drinking stuff that wasn't very good.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:13

Like, I mean, you don't have to get sick if it's bacterially contaminated.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:16

You're.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:17

Yeah, you get sick.

Andrew Bornman: 00:22:19

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 00:22:19

You're not drunk, but sick, which is different.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:21

That's right.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:22

There's two things that are very different.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:23

One's sin, one's not.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:25

Yes, they're both miserable.

Andrew Bornman: 00:22:27

That's right.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:28

But you have to be willing to hang out with people that have tb.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:33

Like, TB is endemic tuberculosis.

Andrew Bornman: 00:22:36

Sure.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:37

So, yes, you risk your life, violence, disease, but is it not worth it?

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:44

Did Christ not lay down his life for you?

Will Spencer: 00:22:47

That's right.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:48

So as I tell my kids, go conquer the world.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:56

Yes, go conquer the world.

Samuel Bornman: 00:22:58

You know, that's world dominion is what Christ came for, to bring it that everything would be placed in subjection to Christ, including forgotten little villages up in the mountains of Mexico.

Andrew Bornman: 00:23:12

How long into your time there, before that, you were playing that game where they said, why are you really here?

Andrew Bornman: 00:23:20

How long had you been there when that happened?

Samuel Bornman: 00:23:22

So that happened.

Samuel Bornman: 00:23:23

I think that happened in: 2023

Andrew Bornman: 00:23:37

So you'd been there for seven, eight years?

Samuel Bornman: 00:23:40

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:23:41

Wow.

Samuel Bornman: 00:23:42

It's like in the last year and a half, the floodgates have burst open.

Andrew Bornman: 00:23:47

Yes.

Samuel Bornman: 00:23:47

And I have so much opportunity.

Samuel Bornman: 00:23:50

run out of that community in: 2017

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:00

They've had multiple battles fought over that mountain, and every single house has either been burned or ransacked.

Andrew Bornman: 00:24:08

When you say battles fought over the mountains, like for land rights?

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:11

No, cartel conflict battles involving hundreds of men on the mountainside in the middle of nowhere.

Andrew Bornman: 00:24:18

So two cartels are fighting each other on the mountain, but not for the mountain?

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:23

No, they're.

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:24

Well, they're fighting for control of the territory.

Andrew Bornman: 00:24:26

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:27

It was the one guy's base where he'd go hide out.

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:31

He had a fairly large personal army, and, like, he had a couple hundred men there.

Andrew Bornman: 00:24:37

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:39

And his enemies said, enough's enough.

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:41

We're gonna kill him.

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:42

And they did.

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:43

They played a game of soccer with his head.

Andrew Bornman: 00:24:46

That'll kill you.

Samuel Bornman: 00:24:48

I go into that environment in: 2023

Andrew Bornman: 00:25:01

Right.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:03

And I had the proper credentials to be able to go in because I've been vetted.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:10

Everybody knows who I am, and they know that I don't say things I shouldn't say.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:17

And so I had access.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:21

After a year of building relationships, I asked one of the men there.

Andrew Bornman: 00:25:26

Would.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:27

It be all right if we'd start doing a Bible study after a year?

Andrew Bornman: 00:25:30

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:31

Yeah.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:32

And his response was, yeah, that'd be really good.

Andrew Bornman: 00:25:38

Praise God.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:39

Yeah.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:40

And so my approach is always to go to the men.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:43

Like, I'm polite to women and kids.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:47

I pursue relationship with men.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:51

It's really.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:53

I think it's the way that God prescribed.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:55

Right.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:55

You address the authority structure that God created.

Andrew Bornman: 00:25:58

Yes.

Samuel Bornman: 00:25:58

And you don't try to go around their back, deal with it head on in a friendly manner.

Samuel Bornman: 00:26:04

Right.

Samuel Bornman: 00:26:05

But it's interesting.

Samuel Bornman: 00:26:09

That man rounded up his second wife's extended family.

Samuel Bornman: 00:26:13

He has two wives.

Samuel Bornman: 00:26:15

Rounded up the extended family that was nearby and said, hey, come on outside.

Samuel Bornman: 00:26:20

We're going to sit down and listen to Andrew give a reading from the Bible.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:24

So they've heard of the.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:25

Oh, yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:25

They didn't encounter other missionaries there.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:28

But not the right people who hadn't handled things the wrong way.

Samuel Bornman: 00:26:32

I won't.

Samuel Bornman: 00:26:33

I won't comment on that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:34

Sure.

Samuel Bornman: 00:26:34

So, yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:36

So the turning point moment came seven, nine years, seven or so years in when they had seen you being there for a long time and like, they couldn't figure it out from material means.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:49

Like, what is this guy doing here?

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:51

He says he wants to teach the Bible.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:54

Like now he's been here for seven years and we can't figure out what he's really about.

Andrew Bornman: 00:26:58

We've seen him, we've watched all of his behavior until they finally had a couple drinks and they roll to confront you.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:02

What are you really here for?

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:04

Yeah, like, I'm really here for what I told you I was here for.

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:07

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:08

And then they're ready to talk to you.

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:09

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:10

Praise God.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:11

Yeah, praise God.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:12

Thank you so much for your service, sir.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:14

Like, where can people go to find out more about you and missionary?

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:17

Farmer.com.

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:19

i have a newsletter that you can sign up for.

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:22

I send that about once a month.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:24

Okay.

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:24

Well, that's my goal.

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:25

Reality is about 10 times a year.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:28

Won't tell anybody.

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:29

So.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:30

Well, thank you so much for your missionary service on behalf of the kingdom and the community in Mexico.

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:35

Thanks for the interview.

Samuel Bornman: 00:27:36

It's a pleasure to be here.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:43

Hi, Samuel.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:44

Welcome to the Will Spencer podcast.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:47

You came up and talked to me about your book yesterday.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:49

Yes, I talked to your dad earlier today.

Andrew Bornman: 00:27:51

Why don't you introduce yourself and, and tell people more about you and what you do?

Speaker E: 00:27:55

Yeah, so I am a missionary and author and distiller, living and working in Mexico mostly.

Speaker E: 00:28:03

I'm here to talk today about my book and why it's important for people to have my book.

Speaker E: 00:28:10

I wrote a kid's book for people ages 12 to 8, more or less, about transhumanism, infanticide and evil at age appropriate levels.

Speaker E: 00:28:24

And it's all in the context of a fantasy fiction novel so that your kids can enjoy a good story and start thinking about these issues so when they meet them in the real world, they're recognized them for what they are.

Andrew Bornman: 00:28:37

So I got your book here.

Andrew Bornman: 00:28:39

It's called Of Wizards and A Tale of Enyaw.

Andrew Bornman: 00:28:44

Am I saying that right?

Speaker E: 00:28:44

Yes, sir.

Andrew Bornman: 00:28:45

So how did you come up with the idea for this book?

Speaker E: 00:28:49

Yeah, so it started during COVID Funnily enough, I was angry about all the transhumanist stuff that was going on and I was angry about abortion.

Speaker E: 00:29:01

And so that worked itself into the book.

Speaker E: 00:29:03

I started out thinking I'm going to write a lighthearted kids novel.

Speaker E: 00:29:07

And all the stuff I was reading, all the stuff in the news that work this way Naturally into my story.

Speaker E: 00:30:29

And I said, okay, I guess this is a kids book, but I'm gonna have to make it lighthearted enough that kids can actually enjoy it and not make it too heavy.

Speaker E: 00:30:39

But, you know, it's interesting, I think, that children can enjoy certain things that they don't see the parallels to the real world because it's set in a fantasy setting.

Speaker E: 00:30:51

And then when they recognize when they actually encounter it in the real world, they're like, oh, that's like in that book I read when I was a little kid.

Speaker E: 00:30:59

Now I know what needs to be done.

Speaker E: 00:31:00

You know, someone who wants to chop babies up, they deserve an ax in the head.

Speaker E: 00:31:04

You know, that kind of thing.

Speaker E: 00:31:06

So that's the.

Speaker E: 00:31:09

They deserve to be fought.

Speaker E: 00:31:11

So that's what I'm doing with that book.

Andrew Bornman: 00:31:14

How long did it take you to write it?

Andrew Bornman: 00:31:16

Like, from when you had the idea and then you fleshed it out, like, how long did the entire process.

Speaker E: 00:31:20

That took me a little more than a year.

Speaker E: 00:31:23

Okay, so pretty fast for books for a first fiction.

Andrew Bornman: 00:31:27

Had you been a fiction writer before?

Speaker E: 00:31:29

No, I had done some writing of short stories.

Speaker E: 00:31:32

I had written some larger pieces but never published them.

Speaker E: 00:31:38

Probably never will because the idea is I was learning how to write.

Speaker E: 00:31:44

But no, that's my first book.

Andrew Bornman: 00:31:46

Well, congratulations.

Speaker E: 00:31:47

Thank you.

Andrew Bornman: 00:31:48

So can you talk a little bit about the plot and the setting and the story?

Andrew Bornman: 00:31:51

Like, just kind of set the stage and some of the characters?

Speaker E: 00:31:54

So the tale is about a boy named Stout.

Speaker E: 00:31:58

He's living a normal life in his home village.

Speaker E: 00:32:03

And one day, he and his friend Sally, they break the rules of their community and go enter a wood slow.

Speaker E: 00:32:11

That's forbidden.

Speaker E: 00:32:13

And while they're in there, this other character, the light, uses the fact that they sinned to his glory by using that sin in spite of their sin.

Speaker E: 00:32:26

He saves them because while they're in the woods, their village gets attacked and destroyed.

Speaker E: 00:32:33

So then that sets the stage for Stout to go off and fight the evil wizard.

Speaker E: 00:32:37

The.

Speaker E: 00:32:38

The light sends him on a mission to go stop the evil wizard who is doing transhumanistic surgeries, grafting men and animals together to have better warriors, better soldiers in his army.

Speaker E: 00:32:51

And so that's the plot of this story.

Speaker E: 00:32:55

So definitely a fantasy.

Speaker E: 00:32:58

Goblins, you got dragons.

Speaker E: 00:32:59

You got these creatures called the Dark Eternals that if these demonic, like, creatures.

Speaker E: 00:33:09

So, yeah, you definitely want to check this book out.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:12

That's great.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:12

I mean, that I can see the parallels between, like, you've made it age appropriate for ages 8 to 12, where it's like, an adult could look at that setup and be like, yeah, I recognize the pieces.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:23

But an 8 to 12 year old, if they've been properly catechized, might as well.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:27

But it kind of gives them a different spin on the same.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:29

On the same world.

Speaker E: 00:33:30

Yes, yes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:32

That's a.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:32

Like, that's a.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:33

I don't know, like, what were some of the things that you saw in the world that you'd like?

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:37

One element, maybe one character that you drew.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:40

Like, someone out in the world that you drew inspiration from.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:42

Like, I can look into the book.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:43

I don't want you to spoil anything.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:44

But, like, you know, maybe you read a headline somewhere.

Andrew Bornman: 00:33:47

Like, I gotta put that into the book.

Speaker E: 00:33:48

Yeah.

Speaker E: 00:33:48

So I think that the evil wizard whose name is Calculo, it's kind of just a caricature of modern science, especially science involving the use of fetal stem cells from aborted children.

Speaker E: 00:34:07

So he is.

Speaker E: 00:34:09

He's wanting to improve humanity as he sees fits.

Speaker E: 00:34:14

But he's also kind of got this really dark sense of humor.

Andrew Bornman: 00:34:19

Okay.

Speaker E: 00:34:20

Because I'll just say this one scene, he takes a guy's arms off, gives him crab claws, then the guy can't open a door.

Speaker E: 00:34:31

Right, Right.

Speaker E: 00:34:32

So he breaks people.

Andrew Bornman: 00:34:34

Yeah.

Speaker E: 00:34:36

To make them stronger.

Speaker E: 00:34:37

Because the guy told Calculo, hey, I want strong hands.

Speaker E: 00:34:41

I want to be able to crush a man's skull.

Speaker E: 00:34:44

That kind of idea.

Speaker E: 00:34:45

Like, I want to be the strongest man.

Speaker E: 00:34:48

So he gives him these crab claws, but now he can't open a door.

Andrew Bornman: 00:34:52

Right.

Speaker E: 00:34:55

The way he was designed to work, you know, have hands that can open something as simple as a doorknob.

Speaker E: 00:35:00

And now, because he has wanted to be something else, something that God didn't create him to be, can't do something as simple as open a doorknob.

Speaker E: 00:35:09

And Calculo has this kind of sense of humor, like, hey, now you're as strong as you can.

Speaker E: 00:35:14

Wanted to be.

Speaker E: 00:35:15

You're stronger than any man, but now you can't open the doorknob.

Speaker E: 00:35:20

And so he gives people what they want, but not quite the way they want.

Andrew Bornman: 00:35:25

That's actually a pretty nice bit of inspiration right there.

Andrew Bornman: 00:35:29

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 00:35:29

Because there's something darkly true about that, about, like, okay, I'll give you what you want in a way that be careful what you wish for.

Andrew Bornman: 00:35:36

You might get it.

Speaker E: 00:35:37

Yeah, we see that with Satan, right?

Andrew Bornman: 00:35:41

Yes.

Speaker E: 00:35:42

So.

Speaker E: 00:35:43

So he definitely, you know, Satan and his servants, they think alike, and so they do stuff like that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:35:51

So is this the first book in a series?

Andrew Bornman: 00:35:53

Yes, sir, Intended to be.

Andrew Bornman: 00:35:54

So where do you plan to go?

Andrew Bornman: 00:35:56

With the series, obviously, those books are in process, but what's the overall vision for the series?

Speaker E: 00:36:01

So, yeah, so this next book is going to be set, like a couple generations later, so following the same theme, same war, but different characters.

Speaker E: 00:36:13

So the overall general plot is tell the story of how sin corrupts and how evil.

Speaker E: 00:36:26

Evil spreads its roots everywhere and pops up time and time again and has to be fought in pretty much every age, because if you just follow, like one character, you get a sense of evil, but, like, over a short period of time.

Speaker E: 00:36:41

And I kind of wanted to do kind of like what CS Lewis did with his Chronicles of Narnia, like, spread it out over years, maybe even generations, thousands of years, because it reminds us that even if we defeat a certain evil in our time, we still need to be watchful.

Speaker E: 00:37:02

Because due to some mistakes that if you read this book, there's some mistakes the characters make that result in evil reoccurring in the next book.

Speaker E: 00:37:11

So you'll see that there.

Andrew Bornman: 00:37:14

How old are you?

Speaker E: 00:37:15

24.

Andrew Bornman: 00:37:16

24.

Andrew Bornman: 00:37:17

Okay.

Andrew Bornman: 00:37:17

That's a lot of wisdom for 24.

Speaker E: 00:37:21

My parents have been reading the Bible to me since I was little, every day pretty much.

Speaker E: 00:37:27

And we've read through the Bible multiple times.

Speaker E: 00:37:31

So I think I would.

Speaker E: 00:37:33

I would say that God has given me wisdom and that my parents have read the Bible to me and that I have a very, very, very active imagination.

Andrew Bornman: 00:37:42

Yes.

Speaker E: 00:37:42

And I have lived in Mexico, where I see violence firsthand.

Andrew Bornman: 00:37:46

Yeah.

Speaker E: 00:37:46

And so I would say that all those things together, they bring a certain amount of wisdom.

Andrew Bornman: 00:37:56

Now you're a missionary with your parents out there in Mexico.

Andrew Bornman: 00:37:59

I spoke to your dad about, you know, some of the processes of getting to know those people and getting.

Andrew Bornman: 00:38:05

Earning their trust and talking theology and the way their theology works.

Andrew Bornman: 00:38:09

What is that?

Andrew Bornman: 00:38:09

What has that been like for you?

Andrew Bornman: 00:38:11

Because you were like, seven or so years ago, so you're maybe 17, something like that, and you've been there through the process.

Andrew Bornman: 00:38:18

What has that been like for you as you've been there with your parents?

Speaker E: 00:38:20

Well, so we actually moved to Mexico first when I was 4.

Andrew Bornman: 00:38:24

Oh, okay.

Speaker E: 00:38:25

And we've been there pretty much ever since.

Speaker E: 00:38:28

nity that we've been in since: 2009

Speaker E: 00:38:43

re, and we bought the farm in: 2014

Speaker E: 00:38:46

So that's.

Speaker E: 00:38:49

That's probably the time period my dad was talking about to you there.

Speaker E: 00:38:53

But so what my role Was primarily, for many years, was helping my dad get to know families.

Speaker E: 00:39:01

Right.

Speaker E: 00:39:03

I didn't even know it.

Speaker E: 00:39:05

I was just playing with kids.

Speaker E: 00:39:07

But kids playing together tend to introduce parents to each other.

Andrew Bornman: 00:39:11

Yes.

Speaker E: 00:39:12

And so it's a very natural way for parents to get to know each other.

Speaker E: 00:39:16

Say, hey, our kids are playing together.

Speaker E: 00:39:18

Why don't you guys come over, you know, come over for supper and hang out.

Speaker E: 00:39:23

So that was how I helped my dad at first.

Speaker E: 00:39:26

After that, you know, as I got older, I started telling people what I understood about the gospel as I understood it.

Speaker E: 00:39:34

And as I developed more and more, you know, my understanding of the gospel was able to share more and more clearly.

Speaker E: 00:39:41

And now I sometimes go to community events on my own.

Speaker E: 00:39:48

You know, some of those, I'm sure my dad mentioned the drinking buddies that the corn beer.

Speaker E: 00:39:54

Yeah.

Speaker E: 00:39:55

They have these ritual drinking parties and sometimes I go by myself and I go and I sit around and I visit, I drink with them, tell them that drunkenness is a sin, but that drinking in moderation is not.

Speaker E: 00:40:08

And that, yeah, it's fine to dance a little while, it's fine to dance, but if you're married, you should dance with your wife.

Speaker E: 00:40:16

And if you're not married, you should be careful how you dance and what kind of messages you give across.

Speaker E: 00:40:22

So, yeah, so that's kind of been my role.

Speaker E: 00:40:28

Started out just introducing my dad to people, you know, being a kid.

Speaker E: 00:40:33

And now I'm all the way into preaching the gospel at these drunken parties.

Andrew Bornman: 00:40:40

And writing sci fi fantasy allegory on the side.

Speaker E: 00:40:44

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker E: 00:40:45

I wouldn't actually call it allegory.

Andrew Bornman: 00:40:47

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker E: 00:40:48

Because I'm not.

Speaker E: 00:40:49

I'm not trying to write.

Speaker E: 00:40:52

Yeah.

Speaker E: 00:40:52

It's not allegory, it's fantasy.

Andrew Bornman: 00:40:54

Yes.

Speaker E: 00:40:55

But as a Christian writer, my Christianity is just woven into it.

Speaker E: 00:41:00

It's like, I think it's hard to separate.

Speaker E: 00:41:05

If you truly care about the gospel, it's hard to separate your Christian beliefs from your work.

Speaker E: 00:41:12

I think it'll show that it should be.

Andrew Bornman: 00:41:14

Yes, your beliefs.

Andrew Bornman: 00:41:16

I mean, that's what we're doing here at Fight La Fils as we're learning how to infuse all of Christ for all of life, all means all, including your work, including your creativity, including your labors.

Speaker E: 00:41:28

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:41:29

So just.

Andrew Bornman: 00:41:31

So just sort of the last question then, like, had you, you've been writing your whole life and sort of walk me into the moment where you had the inspiration to write the book.

Andrew Bornman: 00:41:41

Was there like a moment where it's like, oh, wait, and it kind of clicks in Your mind?

Andrew Bornman: 00:41:46

Or was it something that had kind of taken shape in layers over time?

Speaker E: 00:41:50

Yeah.

Speaker E: 00:41:51

So like I said, I started out wanting to write a lighthearted kids novel.

Speaker E: 00:41:55

Like, yeah, I'm gonna have some fun.

Speaker E: 00:41:57

Write a novel.

Speaker E: 00:41:58

I wrote it.

Andrew Bornman: 00:41:59

Just have some fun.

Andrew Bornman: 00:41:59

Write a novel.

Andrew Bornman: 00:42:00

No big deal.

Speaker E: 00:42:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker E: 00:42:02

Cause I mean, it's my hobby.

Speaker E: 00:42:03

That's.

Andrew Bornman: 00:42:03

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker E: 00:42:04

I just enjoy, I've always enjoyed telling stories ever since I was a little kid.

Speaker E: 00:42:10

As soon as I started talking, I started making up stories.

Andrew Bornman: 00:42:12

Oh, great.

Will Spencer: 00:42:13

Okay.

Andrew Bornman: 00:42:13

Telling stories, that's just part of who you are.

Speaker E: 00:42:14

Yeah.

Speaker E: 00:42:15

Which I mean, if you like to tell stories a lot, sometimes you start to get into telling lies.

Andrew Bornman: 00:42:20

Sure.

Speaker E: 00:42:21

So, but, but yeah.

Speaker E: 00:42:24

So I started out just like, hey, writing fun kids novel.

Speaker E: 00:42:29

And then, you know, in: 2020

Speaker E: 00:42:36

Reading all the news about all the evil stuff that's going on with COVID and the development of the COVID vaccine and, and also just violence in our local area, you know, and all this stuff just kind of wove its way in.

Speaker E: 00:42:51

And then I'm like, okay, I wrote something a little heavier.

Speaker E: 00:42:54

I wonder if this can even be a kid's novel.

Andrew Bornman: 00:42:56

Yeah.

Speaker E: 00:42:56

And I handed it to my dad because he wants to read what I, you know, I'm writing.

Speaker E: 00:43:02

He's like, he reads it and he looks at me and he says, this is good.

Andrew Bornman: 00:43:08

And your dad's the sort of man who would be honest with you about that.

Speaker E: 00:43:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker E: 00:43:12

My dad's been telling me for years, write something else.

Speaker E: 00:43:15

Write something else.

Speaker E: 00:43:16

This is not good enough.

Speaker E: 00:43:17

Write something else.

Speaker E: 00:43:18

Don't publish this.

Speaker E: 00:43:19

And I'm like, okay.

Speaker E: 00:43:20

So then he says, this is good.

Speaker E: 00:43:23

I'm like, what do you mean it's good?

Andrew Bornman: 00:43:26

What do you mean, like, what do you mean it's good?

Speaker E: 00:43:27

He's like, I think you could publish this.

Speaker E: 00:43:30

If you do some publishing, you can publish this.

Speaker E: 00:43:33

I like, okay.

Speaker E: 00:43:34

My dad has never encouraged me to publish it.

Speaker E: 00:43:36

It must be good.

Andrew Bornman: 00:43:37

It must be good.

Andrew Bornman: 00:43:39

It means something.

Speaker E: 00:43:40

It means something.

Speaker E: 00:43:41

And so that is when the moment clicked.

Speaker E: 00:43:44

Like, okay, now I have to publish a book.

Speaker E: 00:43:47

How in the world do I publish a book, right?

Speaker E: 00:43:50

So I'm like, okay, start researching this on online and started like talking to some people.

Speaker E: 00:44:01

But I like, I wasn't really super serious about it.

Speaker E: 00:44:03

I was like, yeah, I want to, but I don't even know where to begin in because.

Speaker E: 00:44:08

And I was looking at the publishing world and like listening to authors talk about how hard it is to get published.

Speaker E: 00:44:14

I'm like, man, this is crazy.

Speaker E: 00:44:16

I'm not already established.

Speaker E: 00:44:20

I'm not some famous politician wanting to write a book about their terrible life in their 20s or whatever, right?

Speaker E: 00:44:29

So how in the world do I get published?

Speaker E: 00:44:32

Plus, also, I don't want to be supporting a company that is woke or tyrannical.

Speaker E: 00:44:43

And as I'm thinking about it, I ended up meeting a guy online, a guy named Alan Stevo, who.

Speaker E: 00:44:50

He wrote a book on how face masks hurt kids.

Speaker E: 00:44:54

And I met him online and I was.

Speaker E: 00:44:58

My dad signed me up for his business class.

Speaker E: 00:45:00

He had a business class he was doing.

Speaker E: 00:45:02

And he says, so what business are you going to do?

Speaker E: 00:45:04

I said, well, I've written a book.

Speaker E: 00:45:05

I've been thinking about publishing it.

Speaker E: 00:45:07

He says, all right, you've got like three months or something to get it published.

Speaker E: 00:45:12

I'm like, what do you mean?

Speaker E: 00:45:13

He says, just self publish on Amazon.

Speaker E: 00:45:14

I'm like, I don't really like Amazon.

Speaker E: 00:45:16

He said, me neither.

Speaker E: 00:45:17

He said, but you need to get it published, because if you don't publish it, you're never going to publish.

Andrew Bornman: 00:45:21

Fair.

Speaker E: 00:45:22

So I said, okay, I guess I'll do it.

Speaker E: 00:45:26

And then I had a deadline, and I had a guy who was keeping me accountable because the way his business workshop worked was each week we had a call, and I had to tell him what I'd done to get towards my call, my goal, you know, on a call, straight up coaching 10, 20 other people.

Speaker E: 00:45:45

Like, okay, in front of all these people, what have you done this week?

Speaker E: 00:45:49

Like, did you do what you said you were gonna do?

Will Spencer: 00:45:51

No.

Speaker E: 00:45:52

Okay, done.

Speaker E: 00:45:52

Why?

Andrew Bornman: 00:45:53

Like, what's going on?

Speaker E: 00:45:54

And so that really, really motivated it.

Speaker E: 00:45:57

And that's.

Parker Brown: 00:45:58

That's.

Speaker E: 00:45:59

That's why that book exists, because they.

Speaker E: 00:46:03

They held me accountable.

Speaker E: 00:46:05

That and my.

Speaker E: 00:46:06

And my siblings, they were like, you really have to publish this.

Will Spencer: 00:46:08

We.

Speaker E: 00:46:09

We love this book.

Speaker E: 00:46:10

We want other people to enjoy it.

Speaker E: 00:46:12

They've been telling me for years I should publish something, but I always took it with a grain of salt because my dad was saying it was bad.

Speaker E: 00:46:20

But when my dad, my siblings, and my mom all agree that it's good, I'm gonna go for it.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:27

Congratulations.

Speaker E: 00:46:28

Yeah.

Speaker E: 00:46:29

Well, thank you.

Will Spencer: 00:46:29

That's a beautiful story.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:30

Well, thank you.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:31

Because when you walked up to talk to me yesterday, you walked up very confidently.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:36

It was such.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:37

It was such an inspiration.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:38

Like, this is a young man who just walks up to me, hands me his book, and says he wants to talk.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:41

Talk to me on the podcast.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:42

And I'm like, I got instant respect for that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:44

You know what I mean?

Speaker E: 00:46:45

Well, thank you.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:45

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:46

But you have your parents, your siblings, you have this accountability coach behind you, and you shipped the thing.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:52

You put it out there.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:53

And so when we were talking yesterday, you seemed quite confident about continuing the series.

Andrew Bornman: 00:46:59

And I understand now why, because it's like, you got the first one out there, it's going to make the second one so much easier.

Speaker E: 00:47:05

Yes.

Speaker E: 00:47:05

Yes, it is.

Andrew Bornman: 00:47:06

Well, congratulations.

Speaker E: 00:47:07

Well, thank you.

Andrew Bornman: 00:47:09

Where would you like to send people to buy the book or learn more about you and what you do?

Speaker E: 00:47:13

Yeah, so you can go to samuelbournman.com that's S A M U E L B O R N M A n dot com.

Speaker E: 00:47:21

If you sign up there, you'll receive notifications about my mission work.

Speaker E: 00:47:27

You'll also hear about book releases, book updates on the next books.

Speaker E: 00:47:33

You'll also be able to download a free short story about a boy who survives an attempt to be aborted and how his life is forever thereafter plagued with a dragon who wants to devour him until he's able to defeat it.

Speaker E: 00:47:52

So you should check that out.

Speaker E: 00:47:54

Download a free short story.

Speaker E: 00:47:56

If you subscribe to my newsletter there you can also find my book on Amazon, but you'll have to search for the title and my last name, otherwise you won't find it.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:06

Great.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:07

We'll send people your way.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:08

Thank you so much, Samuel.

Speaker E: 00:48:10

Thank you.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:11

Lord bless you.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:16

Parker, man, what's up?

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:17

Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Parker Brown: 00:48:18

Anytime, brother.

Parker Brown: 00:48:19

Anything for you.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:20

So I'm a big fan of your podcast.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:24

Watch.

Parker Brown: 00:48:24

Well, Yep.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:25

Which is all about.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:27

Not just this, I don't think, but all about breaking down movies from within a Christian worldview.

Parker Brown: 00:48:31

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:31

And I just think that's such an incredibly cool idea because that's what I do when I watch movies now, which is why I don't watch many movies.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:39

So the opportunity to talk about it with brothers is a really cool idea.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:43

So how did you come up with this?

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:44

With a podcast.

Parker Brown: 00:48:45

So the story of the podcast actually starts with my co host, who's my cousin Nick, who you've met.

Andrew Bornman: 00:48:51

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:48:54

20 years ago, 15 years ago, something like that.

Parker Brown: 00:48:57

He kind of.

Parker Brown: 00:48:58

He was in college and he was going to movies.

Parker Brown: 00:49:00

And ultimately when you would leave the movie theater, he would talk to his buddies about the movie.

Parker Brown: 00:49:05

That's kind of.

Will Spencer: 00:49:05

That's what you do.

Parker Brown: 00:49:06

That's what you do.

Parker Brown: 00:49:06

Right.

Parker Brown: 00:49:07

And he kind of.

Parker Brown: 00:49:08

This trend just kind of emerged and he found that more often than not it would end up in a conversation about worldview.

Andrew Bornman: 00:49:15

Oh, that's interesting.

Parker Brown: 00:49:17

And he was like, yeah, every time we about a movie, it ends up, like, good and evil and subjective, objective morality, all these different things.

Parker Brown: 00:49:25

And he said, you know, I should write a blog.

Parker Brown: 00:49:27

I should do a blog on this stuff.

Parker Brown: 00:49:30

And then he never did it.

Andrew Bornman: 00:49:33

Story's over.

Andrew Bornman: 00:49:33

Well, cool part.

Andrew Bornman: 00:49:34

And he never did.

Parker Brown: 00:49:35

I'd love to tell you that, you know, I sailed off into the future and it was happy ever after.

Parker Brown: 00:49:38

But no, he never wrote the blog.

Parker Brown: 00:49:40

And then years later, he was put in charge of the youth group at his church.

Parker Brown: 00:49:44

And he was, like, remembered back.

Parker Brown: 00:49:46

And he was like, oh, this is this idea.

Parker Brown: 00:49:47

And he applied it to the youth group kids, where they would come over to their house, they would watch a movie, and then they would talk about it and engage it biblically with worldview, presuppositional apologetics, and all those different things.

Parker Brown: 00:50:00

And he found really, really good success with it.

Parker Brown: 00:50:04

And then he did that for a few years.

Parker Brown: 00:50:07

And then later, I don't know, maybe 10 years later, again, he was talking to me, and I was like, yeah, I'm trying to get into podcasts, but I can't really think of an idea.

Parker Brown: 00:50:17

And he remembered back, and he said, well, I had this idea.

Parker Brown: 00:50:23

I call it Watch well, and we just do reviews of movies with biblical worldview.

Parker Brown: 00:50:28

And I said, that's it.

Parker Brown: 00:50:29

So then we recorded our first episode that week on Fences with Denzel Washington.

Parker Brown: 00:50:33

And it was a long time ago.

Andrew Bornman: 00:50:34

I haven't seen that one.

Parker Brown: 00:50:35

It's really good, man.

Parker Brown: 00:50:36

Yeah, really good.

Andrew Bornman: 00:50:37

What other episodes?

Andrew Bornman: 00:50:38

What other movies have you done?

Parker Brown: 00:50:39

Oh, man.

Parker Brown: 00:50:39

Back to the Future.

Parker Brown: 00:50:40

We've done the Back to the Future.

Parker Brown: 00:50:42

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:50:43

Dark Knight trilogy.

Parker Brown: 00:50:44

We've done Forrest Gump.

Parker Brown: 00:50:45

We've.

Parker Brown: 00:50:45

On the new the Batman with Robert Pattinson, Forrest Gump.

Andrew Bornman: 00:50:49

I would shred in a Christian worldview.

Andrew Bornman: 00:50:52

I would rip that to piece.

Parker Brown: 00:50:53

It's so fun.

Parker Brown: 00:50:54

It's so fun.

Parker Brown: 00:50:55

We probably need to redo it.

Parker Brown: 00:50:56

We probably need to have you back on and talk about Forrest Gump.

Andrew Bornman: 00:50:59

Oh, please, let's go.

Parker Brown: 00:51:00

That would be so fun.

Parker Brown: 00:51:02

Oh, man, we've done so many.

Parker Brown: 00:51:03

Fences is good.

Parker Brown: 00:51:04

We've done 13 hours.

Parker Brown: 00:51:05

Secret soldiers of Benghazi.

Parker Brown: 00:51:07

Yeah, we've.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:08

Oh, that's two different titles.

Parker Brown: 00:51:09

No, it's one title.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:10

13 hours.

Parker Brown: 00:51:11

13 hours.

Parker Brown: 00:51:12

It's all about the military guys that got left in Benghazi with.

Parker Brown: 00:51:17

No, they got hung up.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:18

The guy from the Office, right?

Parker Brown: 00:51:19

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:51:19

John Krasinski's in it.

Parker Brown: 00:51:21

There's actually, I think there's three or four characters from the Office the guy that plays Roy in the Office is in it.

Parker Brown: 00:51:27

And then do you remember the.

Parker Brown: 00:51:29

Who's the guy that comes.

Parker Brown: 00:51:30

The guy that comes in and does all the checks.

Parker Brown: 00:51:35

He's in the movie as well.

Parker Brown: 00:51:36

I can't remember.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:36

I'm really bad at tv, so.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:38

It's okay.

Parker Brown: 00:51:38

It's okay.

Parker Brown: 00:51:39

So, yeah, those are.

Parker Brown: 00:51:41

We've done, I think We've done like 40 some movies or something like that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:44

Really?

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:44

You've done 40 episodes?

Parker Brown: 00:51:45

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:51:45

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:46

That's fantastic.

Parker Brown: 00:51:47

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:47

So, like.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:48

Okay, so what were some of.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:49

What were some of your favorites?

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:50

Like, what's the one that really stands out in your memory is like.

Parker Brown: 00:51:52

Yes, we did one with Dead Poets Society.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:55

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:51:56

We had a guest on Robin Williams.

Andrew Bornman: 00:51:57

Is the Bad Guy.

Parker Brown: 00:51:58

Yeah, yeah, we did one with Dead Poet Society.

Parker Brown: 00:52:00

Taryn came on and we talked.

Parker Brown: 00:52:02

That one was a good one.

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:04

Sorry, Taryn.

Parker Brown: 00:52:05

So Taryn Boyette, she has a podcast and she came on.

Parker Brown: 00:52:11

I don't you want me to say with.

Parker Brown: 00:52:14

I believe it's called Chasing Rainbows is her podcast.

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:17

Okay.

Parker Brown: 00:52:18

And she came on, we talked about discipleship and you know, there's a lot of different things in that movie that we.

Parker Brown: 00:52:25

That we talked about.

Parker Brown: 00:52:26

It's hard to remember them all, to be honest with you.

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:28

Oh, sure.

Parker Brown: 00:52:29

They all run together.

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:30

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:52:30

But yeah, the Dark Knight trilogy was fun.

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:33

And you did the whole trilogy?

Parker Brown: 00:52:36

Yeah, we did them like sequential.

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:38

Oh, one episode for each film.

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:40

What did you say about the Dark Knight?

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:43

The second film?

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:43

What did you say about that one?

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:44

If you can recall.

Parker Brown: 00:52:45

So I have to be careful because it's Nick's all time favorite movie.

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:50

No, your cousin.

Parker Brown: 00:52:51

My cousin, yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:52:51

It's his all time favorite movie.

Parker Brown: 00:52:53

It's his, like the best.

Parker Brown: 00:52:54

He is a Batman, like, Die Hard Dark Knight fan.

Andrew Bornman: 00:52:58

Really?

Parker Brown: 00:52:59

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:00

Why?

Parker Brown: 00:53:01

It's not a bad movie.

Parker Brown: 00:53:03

He would.

Parker Brown: 00:53:03

I don't know.

Parker Brown: 00:53:04

He would talk about it better than I would.

Parker Brown: 00:53:06

Okay, we need to get you guys in a room together and talk about the Dark Knight.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:09

We'll debate about it.

Parker Brown: 00:53:09

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:53:11

So.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:12

So, yeah, I mean, you can't really argue with someone's favorite, but you can argue whether a movie is good or not.

Parker Brown: 00:53:17

That's.

Parker Brown: 00:53:18

That's true.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:18

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:53:18

Like, he's not a fan of the Dark Knight Rises.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:21

No, because that's a horrible movie.

Will Spencer: 00:53:23

It's a.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:23

It's a horrible movie.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:24

Yeah, it's.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:25

The ideas just didn't come together.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:27

No, it's like they messed it up with Wokeness.

Parker Brown: 00:53:29

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:30

ake it Work like Blade Runner: 2049

Parker Brown: 00:53:34

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 00:53:34

Which I haven't seen that one.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:36

Oh, that.

Parker Brown: 00:53:36

What's that one about?

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:37

Blade Runner: 2049

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:43

It's in the future where there are replicants still, but they're more controlled after they went crazy the first time.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:49

And the whole plot revolves around a replicant.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:51

His name, I think, is K.

Andrew Bornman: 00:53:53

Discovering that replicants can now reproduce via, like, childbirth because replicants had to be manufactured.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:01

And so they find out that it's possible the replicants can reproduce, like sexually reproduce, like they can be their own species.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:07

And so it's like one replicant has been produced that can allegedly do that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:12

Is it him?

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:12

Et cetera.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:13

So it's that whole journey.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:15

Harrison Ford shows up and I have a lot that I could say about.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:18

A lot of guys are huge fans of that movie.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:19

And I'm just.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:20

There's a lot of good things about it.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:22

It's Denis Villeneuve who did the Dune series and the Arrival.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:28

So he's a very talented filmmaker visually.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:32

But the story.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:34

There were some problems with the story.

Parker Brown: 00:54:35

What do you think about Dune?

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:38

I.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:38

I felt differently about the.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:40

The.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:40

Both movies.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:41

Both movies were significantly impacted in very small ways by Wokeness.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:47

Okay, so in the first Dune, there's a character Liet Kynes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:52

Liet Kynes.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:53

In the books.

Andrew Bornman: 00:54:54

The first of all, the Dune book is like, incredible.

Parker Brown: 00:54:57

It's like, yeah, I haven't read the books yet.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:00

Oh, okay.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:01

Well, you know, I don't know that you have to read the books, plural.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:03

But the first Dune book is of the entire science fiction genre, going back to H.G.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:09

wells and before top five, if not top three, might even be the best sci fi novel of all time.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:15

It's back when science fiction.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:17

So that's what I did in high school is I read science fiction novels.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:20

All of them.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:21

Not all of them, but many, many, many of them.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:23

And so it's just an incredible book, like, really, really worth reading, the language and all that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:29

So in that book, there's a character, Liet Kynes, who's a man who is kind of like in charge of the planet.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:36

Dune, in a way, knows a lot about it.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:39

In the movie, Liet Kynes was replaced with a black woman.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:43

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:43

So it's a minor character.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:45

The way that they portrayed it in the book, it's a much bigger character.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:48

But the Wokeness was so evident.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:50

And the thing is, in movies, like, for a character to be given esteem because you're okay.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:58

So a character comes on screen.

Andrew Bornman: 00:55:59

Why should I listen to whatever this.

Will Spencer: 00:56:00

Person has to say?

Parker Brown: 00:56:01

You have the development.

Parker Brown: 00:56:02

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:02

So the cinematography, various things, exposition about the character, the costume, all of this communicates.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:09

This is a person you should be listening to subconsciously so that someone doesn't come on screen and says, we need to listen to what this guy has to say.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:16

So the thing thing is, like, for most characters, credibility is established, you know, in all these ways for this character, she comes on screen and she behaves as if you should pay attention to what I have to say.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:27

And the only way her credibility is established is because she's a black woman.

Parker Brown: 00:56:30

Yeah, right.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:31

Which is a very common thing in films today.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:33

Like, oh, the magical black woman.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:34

And it's an old thing for men as well.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:36

The magical black man is like a well known movie trope.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:40

And like, I think there's a golf movie, something like that, you know, where.

Parker Brown: 00:56:44

It'S like a.

Parker Brown: 00:56:45

Oh, is it Bagger Vance?

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:47

That's it.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:47

Okay.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:47

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:48

It's a well established.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:49

It's a well established trope in film.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:50

You can look it up.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:51

So that's kind of that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:52

And that.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:53

There was something about that scene that was just.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:55

It just left a really bad taste in my mouth.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:58

A really small change.

Andrew Bornman: 00:56:59

But it's like this is a significant character that they did nothing with and kind of discarded.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:03

And so that affected.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:05

That affected the movie in that small way.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:07

But it was in the second Dune that they had a real problem because the character of Chani, played by Zendaya.

Parker Brown: 00:57:15

Yep.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:17

The function of that character is to be the conscience of the story.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:22

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:22

So she's the one who's supposed to be looking at Paul Atreides rise and being like, hey, I'm not so sure about this.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:29

Everyone's totally bought in.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:30

Go, go, go.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:31

And she's supposed to be like, hey, like, pump the brakes a little bit.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:34

Maybe this isn't a good idea.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:35

Yeah, totally valid role in the story.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:38

The problem is Zendaya is not a really good actress.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:41

So she couldn't pull off the nuances of performance to suggest disapproval without scowling.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:48

So she was.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:48

She was telling instead of showing, I'm upset with what's happening.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:52

Frowny face.

Parker Brown: 00:57:52

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 00:57:53

As opposed to suggesting, like, a more skilled actor would be able to communicate that in a way that would be more impactful and less obvious.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:00

So that was bad.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:02

But what was really bad is at the end of the second film, Chani is supposed to recognize that the right thing for Paul Atreides to do is actually to marry the Emperor's daughter, that that's the only way to preserve peace in the galaxy.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:16

And like, she's supposed to be bought in the conscience is supposed to acquit him so he can take this step.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:22

Instead, they had to play it off as the jilted girlfriend.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:25

And suddenly she turns into the woke Bo boss babe who's been discarded for the girl.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:28

And she goes riding off on her worm motorcycle.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:31

And it's just like, that is completely getting the character wrong.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:34

And so, like, these are small things.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:37

You could look at them that way.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:39

But it's also mars what would be an otherwise good movie.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:42

It's not Zendaya's fault.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:43

It's not her fault that she's not a good performer.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:46

She's simply not right.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:47

And I don't even mind.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:48

People are getting down on her for her looks.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:50

She's not as pretty as others look.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:53

She.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:53

She plays a desert.

Andrew Bornman: 00:58:54

A desert girl doesn't necessarily have to be as attractive, like, because that would be authentic to the character.

Will Spencer: 00:59:00

It's that she didn't have the chops.

Andrew Bornman: 00:59:01

She did not have the acting chops.

Andrew Bornman: 00:59:03

And I thought everyone was very unfair to her.

Andrew Bornman: 00:59:04

But then again, we didn't cast her, so she was.

Andrew Bornman: 00:59:07

She was under qualified for the role and it showed up in the story.

Parker Brown: 00:59:10

Yeah, I'm often, or I'm immediately going through scenes of movies where you said that she didn't have the chops for those scenes where she had to show disgust or disapproval.

Parker Brown: 00:59:22

Like Forrest Gump at the very end when Tom Hanks finally realizes that the kid is his son.

Parker Brown: 00:59:28

And just that scene of that emotion, he looks at Jenny and he, you know, and he does the physical expression of like, is he like me?

Parker Brown: 00:59:38

But he doesn't say anything.

Parker Brown: 00:59:40

That's right.

Parker Brown: 00:59:40

And it just gives a whole different dimension to the story and the scene.

Parker Brown: 00:59:45

And it brings you into it to actually feel like you're in the room with them.

Will Spencer: 00:59:51

That's right.

Parker Brown: 00:59:52

And I think, you know, I don't know if I would have.

Parker Brown: 00:59:56

You're making me think about Dune now.

Parker Brown: 00:59:58

And I don't know if I would have pulled that out, specifically that scene with Zendaya, but I think you're absolutely correct.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:04

Yeah, I mean, like, that's.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:06

This is the art of acting that we don't have a lot of information about.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:10

We know when it's awesome.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:11

Like Marlon Brando is.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:13

I think he's generally considered the best male actor of all time.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:16

And he just has this gravitas, like in the Godfather.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:19

In the Godfather, he's literally Just sitting there.

Parker Brown: 01:00:22

Presence.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:23

Presence, that's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:25

It's light.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:26

It's photons bouncing off a screen.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:28

You know what I mean?

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:29

In a movie theater.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:30

And yet you're there with him because he has this presence.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:33

There's no sound.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:34

How does that work?

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:35

I don't know how that works, but it does.

Parker Brown: 01:00:37

But it's a skill.

Andrew Bornman: 01:00:38

It's a skill.

Parker Brown: 01:00:39

And it takes a really long time and I think anymore.

Parker Brown: 01:00:42

I would love to get your thoughts on this too, where you have these almost.

Parker Brown: 01:00:46

These kids that just come up and they're just famous.

Parker Brown: 01:00:49

Immediately, boom.

Parker Brown: 01:00:50

And it's like there was no, like, trial or vetting process.

Parker Brown: 01:00:57

Almost.

Parker Brown: 01:00:58

It's like you're just gonna act in this movie.

Parker Brown: 01:00:59

Correct.

Parker Brown: 01:01:00

And there was no tried and true.

Parker Brown: 01:01:03

I say vetting.

Parker Brown: 01:01:04

I don't know a better word.

Parker Brown: 01:01:05

But I think you can kind of get what I'm trying to say where someone like Marlon Brando, the craft was a big deal.

Andrew Bornman: 01:01:11

The craft, yes.

Parker Brown: 01:01:12

And, you know, I mean, I would even say like Tom Hanks and some of these great actors and I mean, even actresses, they just kind of stood the test of time.

Parker Brown: 01:01:21

Which is why when you go back and I'm kind of a big fan of Titanic, I don't know what you think about Titanic.

Andrew Bornman: 01:01:29

Rose is one of history's great villains.

Parker Brown: 01:01:31

Yeah, that's right.

Parker Brown: 01:01:32

That's right.

Parker Brown: 01:01:32

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:01:33

She's evil.

Parker Brown: 01:01:34

But the acting in the movie, I think is pretty decent.

Andrew Bornman: 01:01:37

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:01:37

And I.

Parker Brown: 01:01:38

And I think that it's kind of a timeless movie because you can go back in a way.

Andrew Bornman: 01:01:41

Surprisingly so.

Andrew Bornman: 01:01:42

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:01:42

You can kind of go back and you can watch Titanic and still enjoy the movie.

Parker Brown: 01:01:46

But if you go back and watch Dune.

Andrew Bornman: 01:01:47

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:01:48

It's probably not going to last a generation.

Andrew Bornman: 01:01:50

No.

Andrew Bornman: 01:01:51

The visuals are incredible.

Parker Brown: 01:01:52

It's art on screen, man.

Parker Brown: 01:01:53

It's cinematographic.

Parker Brown: 01:01:55

They do that well.

Parker Brown: 01:01:56

But you got to get to the story, and then you have to get the right people on the bus in order to carry the story along.

Parker Brown: 01:02:02

You can't have really good story and bad people to carry the story.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:06

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:06

Oh, they try.

Parker Brown: 01:02:07

Yeah, they do.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:08

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:02:08

And I don't, you know, I don't know if budgeting goes into all of that or anything like that.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:13

It's that no one wants to spend money on writers.

Parker Brown: 01:02:15

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:16

The things that make a movie succeed is good writing.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:20

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:20

And good acting.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:22

If you have those two things, you can do a ton with a very low budget film.

Parker Brown: 01:02:25

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:26

But like now people would rather spend money on spectacle and Spectacle, just the way that I define it is like it's action scenes that do nothing to advance the plot, but just look amazing to look at.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:38

Like, the Transformers movies are pure spectacle.

Parker Brown: 01:02:41

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:41

You know what I mean?

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:42

But this explosion that I'm looking at right now doesn't do anything to advance the plot or whatever.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:47

It's just something to look at.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:48

Now there are action scenes that do advance the plot.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:51

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:51

And that's not spectacle, and you want to invest money into those.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:54

But.

Andrew Bornman: 01:02:54

But a lot of it is just like, this needs to be, you know, 50% longer for the.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:00

For the low information voters.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:02

That's right.

Parker Brown: 01:03:03

That's right.

Parker Brown: 01:03:05

Yeah, man.

Parker Brown: 01:03:05

That's.

Parker Brown: 01:03:06

It's just so much fun to talk about movies.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:08

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:03:09

It's so fun.

Parker Brown: 01:03:09

And they're such a big part of our lives.

Parker Brown: 01:03:11

You know, I was just actually having a conversation over here with Dusty Devers, and we were talking about Christian engagement and entertainment.

Parker Brown: 01:03:20

And so, so much of entertainment today is exactly what we just talked about.

Parker Brown: 01:03:23

It's just.

Parker Brown: 01:03:24

It's just brain rock.

Will Spencer: 01:03:26

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:03:26

There's no point to it.

Parker Brown: 01:03:27

It's.

Parker Brown: 01:03:27

It's get on tick tock and scroll.

Parker Brown: 01:03:29

Death scroll.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:30

Yes.

Parker Brown: 01:03:30

And.

Parker Brown: 01:03:31

And.

Parker Brown: 01:03:31

And that's kind of what we aim to do is take.

Parker Brown: 01:03:34

Take back the.

Parker Brown: 01:03:35

The.

Parker Brown: 01:03:36

The reins of entertainment.

Parker Brown: 01:03:38

And, you know, we got T shirts here at Fight, Laugh, Beast, you know, bringing death to the passive consumption of entertainment.

Parker Brown: 01:03:43

And that's exactly literally what we want to do.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:46

Bringing death to the passive consumption of entertainment.

Parker Brown: 01:03:49

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:49

High five, bro.

Parker Brown: 01:03:50

Thanks, man.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:50

Thanks, man.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:52

So, like, what are some.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:55

What are some techniques?

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:56

So there's two questions.

Andrew Bornman: 01:03:58

What are some really good films that Christians can watch?

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:00

Good films that Christians can watch?

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:02

Not good films that Christians.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:03

And just there's lots of those.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:05

And like, what are some ways that Christians can watch, like, mainstream movies and insulate themselves from some of the toxic ideas?

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:14

Because you don't want to pat.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:15

Like you said, you don't want to passively consume entertainment.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:18

But, like, it can get really tiring to constantly be on guard against messaging in films.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:24

A good example is I went to the second.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:26

I went to see the second Top Gun with my dad, and I think I got.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:30

I was like, I could feel myself kind of white knuckling.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:32

Where's the wokeness?

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:33

Wake.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:33

Where's the wokeness?

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:34

And then it didn't come.

Parker Brown: 01:04:35

Didn't come.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:36

And I could just sit there and enjoy the film.

Parker Brown: 01:04:38

And it's such a freeing feeling.

Parker Brown: 01:04:39

Like, it's like, oh, my gosh, they're not trying to force anything down My throat.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:43

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:44

And how often does that happen?

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:45

Almost never nowadays.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:46

So, like.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:47

So there's a.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:47

There's a clenched watching, but, like, there's a way to do that smartly in a way to just do that.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:53

Like, I'm not watching.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:54

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:04:54

Yeah.

Will Spencer: 01:04:54

So.

Andrew Bornman: 01:04:55

But if I don't want to do that, what are some films that I can watch that you would recommend instead that might be a little bit easier, Less clenching.

Andrew Bornman: 01:05:00

So kind of both.

Parker Brown: 01:05:01

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:05:01

So I guess to give you an idea of what we do, I would point to the movie Tombstone.

Parker Brown: 01:05:07

And I hope this is answering your question.

Parker Brown: 01:05:09

But, you know, one of the things that we took away from Tombstone was Curly Bill.

Parker Brown: 01:05:15

And I'll say curly Bill's the bad guy.

Parker Brown: 01:05:17

Curly Bill's the bad guy.

Andrew Bornman: 01:05:18

That's the Michael Biehn.

Parker Brown: 01:05:21

Yes.

Parker Brown: 01:05:22

Yes.

Parker Brown: 01:05:25

What's interesting about watching a movie is when we go and watch the movie, we automatically presuppose that we are like the good guys.

Andrew Bornman: 01:05:34

Yeah, that's.

Andrew Bornman: 01:05:34

Yeah, it's.

Parker Brown: 01:05:35

And how often do we ever, you know, correlate to the bad guys in the interest.

Andrew Bornman: 01:05:42

We're not supposed to, but there is some of that.

Parker Brown: 01:05:44

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:05:44

So, like, we're not supposed to, but how.

Parker Brown: 01:05:46

If we.

Parker Brown: 01:05:47

If.

Parker Brown: 01:05:47

I guess the technique that we use is, you know, you have to, obviously have to start with preparing, read the Bible.

Parker Brown: 01:05:51

You have to know your theology, know your worldview.

Parker Brown: 01:05:54

But then when you.

Parker Brown: 01:05:54

When you watch a movie like Tombstone and you watch how much time and effort went into getting the viewer to hate Curly Bill because of how terrible he is.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:05

That's right.

Parker Brown: 01:06:05

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:06:06

And you absolutely want him to get what he deserves.

Parker Brown: 01:06:08

You want him.

Parker Brown: 01:06:09

You want the worst things to happen to that guy.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:11

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:12

Films, good films, spend a long time setting up the emotional payoff of the death of the villain.

Parker Brown: 01:06:18

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:18

Because you have to, like.

Samuel Bornman: 01:06:19

Yes.

Parker Brown: 01:06:19

And when it comes, it's satisfying.

Parker Brown: 01:06:21

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:06:21

It's like, oh, my gosh.

Parker Brown: 01:06:22

Justice.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:23

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:23

Yes.

Parker Brown: 01:06:24

And that appeal to justice is written on our hearts, you know, Romans chapter one, Romans chapter two, Romans chapter three.

Parker Brown: 01:06:29

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:06:29

No one righteous, no one good, no one seeks for God.

Parker Brown: 01:06:33

We exchange the truth for the lie.

Parker Brown: 01:06:35

We have what, you know, God's law written on our heart.

Parker Brown: 01:06:37

So we have that appeal to justice.

Parker Brown: 01:06:39

But how often do we look at Curly Bill and see ourselves because standing before a holy and righteous God, we're Curly Bill.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:47

Oh, man.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:50

Yes.

Parker Brown: 01:06:50

You know what I'm saying?

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:51

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:52

So in respect of.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:53

This is the difference between total depravity and absolute depravity.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:56

Like, we're not all criminals.

Andrew Bornman: 01:06:58

And so far as any of you know, we're not all criminals right now.

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:01

Like that.

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:02

However, before holy God.

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:05

Yes.

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:05

There's not a meaningful amount of difference between us.

Samuel Bornman: 01:07:08

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:07:08

And I think that's a really good way to present the gospel to people that you go to the theater with or you know, how often you're just sitting around and like, hey, we need something to do.

Parker Brown: 01:07:17

Let's watch a movie.

Parker Brown: 01:07:18

Hey, let's throw a tombstone.

Parker Brown: 01:07:19

Hey, what do you know, your non believing friend?

Parker Brown: 01:07:21

What do you think about Curly Bill?

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:23

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:07:23

You don't.

Parker Brown: 01:07:24

You don't necessarily believe in objective morality.

Parker Brown: 01:07:26

Because we're friends and I kind of know your worldview a little bit.

Parker Brown: 01:07:29

Why do you.

Parker Brown: 01:07:29

Why do you want Hurley Bill to get what he deserves?

Parker Brown: 01:07:32

What do you deserve?

Parker Brown: 01:07:35

How do you justify calling that immoral?

Parker Brown: 01:07:39

Like him killing and slaughtering all these people.

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:41

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:07:41

I mean, he slaughters people in a church in the opening scene.

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:44

That's right.

Parker Brown: 01:07:45

You know, a couple that just gets married, he just shows up and just kills them all.

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:49

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:07:50

Why is that wrong?

Parker Brown: 01:07:50

Yeah, that's kind of the idea of what we want to do.

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:55

That's great.

Andrew Bornman: 01:07:55

And you point out something really important is to understand that feeling of justice.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:01

That's something that I've observed in the movies that I watch, is that the movie has to establish within the premises of the movie why the villain is bad and get you to have a negative feeling against him.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:10

It can't just be the way that he looks.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:12

You have to see the villain do something that triggers this feeling that advances the plot.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:17

So I think of the movie Kill Bill.

Parker Brown: 01:08:19

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:19

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:19

And so like, you see the bride, you know, get, you know, and that's like such a brutal and savage and truly satanic scene, let's be honest.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:28

Like it's.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:28

It's really like the only reason that.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:31

The only reason.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:32

In fact, that reminds me, I should send you an article that I wrote on my substack about why there.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:37

Why there are no convincing female action heroes.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:41

And one of them is because no one wants to see actual violence done to a woman.

Parker Brown: 01:08:45

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:46

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:46

And the only reason that scene in Kill Bill where she gets shot is even passable is because you already know she's going to survive.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:53

That's well established.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:54

She's alive and it's in black and white.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:56

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:08:56

Her face is bloodied and beaten, but you can't see any of that because it's black and white.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:00

And you know that she survived.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:02

So it can't be that bad.

Will Spencer: 01:09:03

No.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:03

One would ever tolerate a scene like that.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:06

Nor should we.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:08

Right, but we would, we wouldn't like it from a man.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:11

But like when you see John Wick being tied up and tortured, you know what I mean?

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:14

It's like he's the hero.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:16

And men, we expect that from men.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:17

You don't torture women.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:19

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:09:20

You mean you didn't connect to the scene where she's buried alive and she's three inches away and she's punching her.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:25

Way out of the.

Parker Brown: 01:09:26

Stupid man.

Parker Brown: 01:09:27

So stupid, so dumb.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:28

But it's that kind of like chop socky come.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:31

Like it's like I can willingly, like.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:33

Yeah, willingly suspended.

Parker Brown: 01:09:34

Suspension of disbelief to the backs.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:36

Exactly.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:37

That she kicks the door open and he blasts her in the chest and she goes flying backwards from salt.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:41

Like what?

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:43

Right, but that character, what's his name, the Billy Budd who lives in the trailer.

Parker Brown: 01:09:49

Oh, I can't.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:50

But I think that's the character.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:51

Yeah, he's one of the Fox Force flyer.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:55

He's the one who pulls the trigger.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:57

And so you see him get.

Andrew Bornman: 01:09:59

Doesn't he get bitten in the face by the snake?

Parker Brown: 01:10:01

That's right.

Parker Brown: 01:10:02

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:02

So the, the violence and the whole.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:04

And the shock horror, I guess of that is the payoff for the terrible acts that he's committed.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:10

And so being sensitive to that pattern in films, but then applying that to understand the sins that you've committed in your life and the justice that you deserve.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:19

This is these principles are woven into us as beings and we project them in large, like literally project them in large format on a screen that you're watching.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:28

You've sinned against the Holy God.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:30

What do you deserve from him?

Parker Brown: 01:10:32

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:32

But you don't necessarily have to receive that.

Parker Brown: 01:10:35

You don't think that way when you're sitting in the movie theater.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:36

You know, I've never thought that way until now.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:39

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:40

But that's real.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:42

We're seeing reflected in a sense.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:44

It's like taken from us.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:45

Because the biblical stories by David Ries is like giving a full on sermon right now.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:51

I don't know if you've been listening to what he's been saying.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:53

Policy to avoid while out of power.

Andrew Bornman: 01:10:56

Proverbs 30, 22, 32, 30.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:00

I mean, he's like talking about sovereignty and all this stuff anyway.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:03

So it's like in a sense like the awareness of these things has been taken from us because we should be learning this out of the Bible.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:10

But we're not learning it out of the Bible anymore.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:12

We're learning it in a Twisted and demented form from Hollywood.

Parker Brown: 01:11:16

That's right.

Parker Brown: 01:11:17

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:11:17

And if you're not tethered to the Bible, you'll believe in anything.

Parker Brown: 01:11:20

You can believe anything.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:21

That's true.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:21

Yeah, that's true.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:22

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:23

And people.

Parker Brown: 01:11:24

And then movies will train you to think, however the directors.

Parker Brown: 01:11:27

And you'll essentially be indoctrinated to believe whatever the story writers believe.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:34

Yes.

Parker Brown: 01:11:34

Because every movie has a message.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:36

That's right.

Parker Brown: 01:11:37

And the question is, what is the message?

Parker Brown: 01:11:39

And how does it stack up to actual truth, which can only come from the Bible.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:43

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:44

That's right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:44

And that's not to say that while so many films borrow from the Bible, like Braveheart, what is Braveheart but a Christ story?

Parker Brown: 01:11:52

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:52

That's literally what it is.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:53

It's not even.

Andrew Bornman: 01:11:54

I mean, it's only marginally close to history, you know, but it's like a young chosen boy goes and trains and comes back and, you know, gets his disciples together and gives it like.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:03

That's exciting.

Parker Brown: 01:12:04

I mean, there's a reason why Jesus told parables.

Parker Brown: 01:12:06

There's a reason why God.

Parker Brown: 01:12:07

I mean, the narrative and the canon of Scripture is a giant story.

Parker Brown: 01:12:10

And I don't mean that in, like a mythological.

Parker Brown: 01:12:13

But God is a storyteller.

Will Spencer: 01:12:15

That's right, he is.

Parker Brown: 01:12:17

So there is significance there.

Parker Brown: 01:12:19

And one of our other taglines is you must know Christ to understand story, because without good and evil, without a narrative, there can't be a story.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:31

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:12:32

So that's, you know.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:34

Yeah, but there's a whole pattern happening now in films where you do have the antihero.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:41

You have the movie, like Joker.

Will Spencer: 01:12:42

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:43

Or the guy from.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:43

Have you seen Drive with Ryan Gosling?

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:47

Or the.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:47

Or Christian Bale from American Psycho?

Parker Brown: 01:12:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:50

Like the.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:51

I think it's either Millennial or Zoomer Men have this whole collection of lone nut, you know, sigma males.

Andrew Bornman: 01:12:57

You know what I mean?

Parker Brown: 01:12:58

But I think that the whole antihero is a corruption.

Andrew Bornman: 01:13:00

I agree.

Parker Brown: 01:13:01

Of the actual order in which it's a chaotic.

Parker Brown: 01:13:08

It's just a chaotic narrative.

Andrew Bornman: 01:13:09

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:13:10

And I think that if we're gonna.

Parker Brown: 01:13:11

If we're gonna lean more into virtue as opposed to vice, then you are gonna have a more, you know, God is a God of order.

Parker Brown: 01:13:18

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:13:18

You know, we have.

Parker Brown: 01:13:19

We have.

Parker Brown: 01:13:19

We have order and structure.

Parker Brown: 01:13:21

And when you.

Parker Brown: 01:13:23

When you start to see those types of corruptions, there's foul play.

Andrew Bornman: 01:13:26

Sure.

Parker Brown: 01:13:27

And, you know, and when you get into chaos and different things, you know who the father of chaos is.

Parker Brown: 01:13:31

Right.

Parker Brown: 01:13:31

So.

Andrew Bornman: 01:13:31

Of course.

Parker Brown: 01:13:33

So, yeah, I Totally agree.

Parker Brown: 01:13:38

It's tough because I think the flesh likes the antihero a little bit, though.

Andrew Bornman: 01:13:43

Yes.

Parker Brown: 01:13:44

The flesh kind of likes it, and there's something raw and relatable.

Parker Brown: 01:13:49

But I think that's the lie, right?

Parker Brown: 01:13:52

I think that's the lie.

Andrew Bornman: 01:13:53

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:13:54

Who sows chaos right in the.

Andrew Bornman: 01:13:57

That would seem virtuous within the bounds of story, but that isn't.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:01

That's a really good point, actually.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:02

Cause a lot of these Sigma Male guys, they do focus on the antihero.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:07

You know, the Joker is the great example, but again, Christian Bale or even Deadpool.

Samuel Bornman: 01:14:12

Deadpool.

Parker Brown: 01:14:12

You know, like, it's tough because if I'm being honest, I really am drawn to those movies.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:18

The Marvel movies?

Parker Brown: 01:14:19

No, no, not the Marvel movies.

Parker Brown: 01:14:20

Just Deadpool's character and.

Parker Brown: 01:14:23

But I'm not convinced I should be.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:25

No.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:26

I watch clips on YouTube from the recent Deadpool vs.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:29

Wolverine.

Parker Brown: 01:14:30

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:30

And it's so vulgar.

Parker Brown: 01:14:32

It is.

Parker Brown: 01:14:32

It's very.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:33

So vulgar.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:34

And it's so violent and it's so graphic.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:38

And I'm so.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:39

I don't know that I could actually sit through the entire film.

Parker Brown: 01:14:41

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:41

But it's like.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:43

But I would like to.

Parker Brown: 01:14:44

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:45

You know what I mean?

Parker Brown: 01:14:45

I mean, I did.

Parker Brown: 01:14:46

And it's.

Parker Brown: 01:14:46

Everything you said.

Parker Brown: 01:14:47

Just said it is.

Parker Brown: 01:14:48

And I watched clips of the Gambit.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:50

You know what I mean?

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:51

It's like, what a fun character.

Andrew Bornman: 01:14:53

What is he saying?

Parker Brown: 01:14:55

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:14:55

You just.

Parker Brown: 01:14:56

You know.

Parker Brown: 01:14:56

And I know I didn't see this one, but what's the newest Doctor Strange?

Parker Brown: 01:15:00

I stopped watching Marvel after Endgame.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:02

But there's, of course, like, everyone did.

Parker Brown: 01:15:04

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:15:04

And there's a new Doctor Strange movie and just the sorcery.

Parker Brown: 01:15:08

And it's like you kind of.

Parker Brown: 01:15:11

The new age, you know.

Parker Brown: 01:15:12

You know a lot about the New age stuff, and I'm sure there's tons of that in that.

Parker Brown: 01:15:15

You.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:16

And I remember there being a few things in the first one.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:19

Like, it's.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:22

It's Dr.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:23

Strange going into the Dark Dimension to confront Dormammu.

Parker Brown: 01:15:28

Yeah, that's right.

Parker Brown: 01:15:29

And it's a loop.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:30

It's a loop.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:30

But there's a scene where the Enlightened One or whatever character, like, punches his soul out of his body.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:39

Open your eye.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:40

So open your eyes.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:41

You know, chakra, third eye kind of thing.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:43

But then that entire sequence is like.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:46

It's just.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:47

That's what an ayahuasca trip looks like.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:49

So very clearly the designers or something had done drugs to create those.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:53

Those graphics.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:54

That's what that is.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:55

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:55

And so, you know, I wanted to comment on that.

Andrew Bornman: 01:15:57

In fact, I want to start doing more reaction videos to some of the stuff that's out there and point out that's what this is.

Andrew Bornman: 01:16:03

Because people don't recognize.

Andrew Bornman: 01:16:04

I see it because, you know, but these values are being put through story and with hyper powerful graphics.

Parker Brown: 01:16:11

Yeah, yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:16:13

What are your.

Parker Brown: 01:16:14

So obviously we have to follow our convictions.

Parker Brown: 01:16:16

You know, if we don't.

Parker Brown: 01:16:17

If we don't follow our convictions, we're in sin.

Andrew Bornman: 01:16:19

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:16:19

So how, what is your opinion on engaging with that kind of content?

Parker Brown: 01:16:25

Can you say just never watch it and maybe border like Christian retreatism or from entertainment object?

Parker Brown: 01:16:32

Obviously I'm trying to be clear here.

Parker Brown: 01:16:36

Follow your convictions.

Parker Brown: 01:16:37

Right, sure.

Parker Brown: 01:16:39

And I know that that line is going to be very different for everybody, but in order to react to something, you have to see it and be knowledgeable of it and to be up to date.

Parker Brown: 01:16:47

So what do you think?

Parker Brown: 01:16:49

How best can we do that in your opinion?

Andrew Bornman: 01:16:51

Well, I mean, I would just say like as a content creator, it's a little.

Andrew Bornman: 01:16:58

It's different than an everyday consumer passively.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:02

Passively?

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:02

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:02

For me, like I don't watch movies, I don't watch Netflix, I don't watch tv.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:06

Like I listen, like.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:07

And I'm not, I'm not advocating this for others.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:09

I just mean for myself.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:10

I've always been hyper sensitive to media and so like I've never been able to watch a horror movie because I'm way too sensitive to it.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:17

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:17

So I don't engage with that stuff.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:20

And I just don't.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:21

I can't, you know, I will watch commentary.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:23

There's a great guy, Rock Rob Ager, collative learning on YouTube.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:27

You'd really like his stuff.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:28

Actually all he does is in depth analysis of film and sometimes video games and tv.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:34

But he's brilliant.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:36

I'll watch that.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:37

It takes a lot to get me to watch a film nowadays.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:40

As a content creator though, my thought is that I can spot things that are in these that are intentionally.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:49

It's not just a coincidence.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:50

I can spot things that I think people need to see.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:52

I'll give you a good example.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:53

I don't know what it is, but I downloaded it from the Internet.

Andrew Bornman: 01:17:56

It was a cartoon that tells the story of Satan and Lilith.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:02

Right.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:02

And it's sort of talking.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:04

It talks a little bit about God and it's pure Gnosticism.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:07

It's all of this and it's like it's done in a kid's style of animation.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:11

Maybe it might be Adult Swim, like for adults, but like it's still kind of.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:15

It's a card.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:15

It is very much a cartoon.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:17

And I watch that.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:18

It's like, I don't know how long it is.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:19

Maybe it's five minutes.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:21

Animated sequence.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:22

It looks like the introduction to a series.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:25

I'm sure I can find out what it is.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:27

And I'm looking at this and I'm like, I know what every single one of those comments means.

Parker Brown: 01:18:32

It's terrifying.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:34

And none of it is any good.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:36

From the very second sentence of the script.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:39

It takes a bible story and then slides it and tries to position it as good.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:44

And it's like, I look at that and I know what all that means.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:46

Someone else may, like, what does all that mean?

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:48

I can tell you exactly what that means.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:50

And that's what they're showing to your kids.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:52

And so I think for that, yes, but like, I wouldn't just put it out there.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:57

Just like, I'm just gonna create a piece of content.

Andrew Bornman: 01:18:59

It's like, you need to see what's going on here.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:01

Avatar movie.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:02

Avatar is another great example.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:04

Nature worship, you know.

Parker Brown: 01:19:06

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:07

Hatred of.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:07

Hatred of men and masculinity and the father.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:10

Hatred of capitalism.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:11

Worship of the planet.

Parker Brown: 01:19:12

Yeah.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:12

You know, all this different stuff.

Parker Brown: 01:19:13

All this stuff.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:13

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:19:14

We have avatar and Avatar 2 on our podcast.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:16

Oh, you've done them already?

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:17

Yeah, I haven't seen Avatar 2.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:18

How was that?

Parker Brown: 01:19:19

I think it was.

Parker Brown: 01:19:20

I think it was better than the first one in terms of our values, from our worldview.

Parker Brown: 01:19:23

I've heard that there was, there was a really actual, really good thread of the father figure.

Parker Brown: 01:19:29

I heard that.

Parker Brown: 01:19:30

But you still have the, you know, the, the worship of nature and, you know, we're all one, you know, in one way, spiritually, one or another.

Parker Brown: 01:19:40

We feed off each other and.

Parker Brown: 01:19:42

Yeah, that's.

Parker Brown: 01:19:43

That's tough.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:45

It is, it is.

Andrew Bornman: 01:19:46

Well, that's why I'm grateful that your podcast exists because I think like, there's both a prophylactic, as in, like, maybe you can watch a little bit of, you know, maybe you can do like spoiler free versions like, hey, if you're going into this, keep these things in mind.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:02

Who.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:02

Someone won a drawing, I guess keep these things in mind.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:04

And then there's like, when you're done watching it, then you can unpack it from there.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:07

So you can send people there to prepare people for what they're going to watch is better than not at all.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:12

But then also, like, someone could be really troubled.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:14

Like, I saw this film, I didn't know much about it.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:16

I watched the whole thing, and I was really troubled by it, but I can't put my finger on what.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:20

Oh, the watch.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:21

Well, guys, they.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:22

That's what was bothering me.

Parker Brown: 01:20:24

I love that.

Parker Brown: 01:20:24

Yeah.

Parker Brown: 01:20:25

Well, I really appreciate you, man.

Parker Brown: 01:20:27

You've been a blessing to me.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:28

Oh, thank you.

Parker Brown: 01:20:28

We're just looking up to you as a content creator, and we're trying to learn the best we can, you know, and this is not just flattery.

Parker Brown: 01:20:36

No, this is genuine, man.

Will Spencer: 01:20:37

Thank you.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:37

No, and I'm very blessed by that because, you know that I'm such an enthusiastic supporter of what you do.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:43

So it's like.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:43

It's a fantastic idea, and I'm grateful that Nick put that into a blog.

Parker Brown: 01:20:47

And I didn't know what to do with it or didn't put a blog.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:50

And I don't know what to do with it.

Parker Brown: 01:20:51

It's like.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:51

Because this is.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:51

He planted a seed, and.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:53

And this is a real.

Andrew Bornman: 01:20:54

This is what should be done with it, and it's really needed.

Parker Brown: 01:20:58

The idea was so far long ago, and now it's here, and we're doing the best we can.

Parker Brown: 01:21:02

And again, you've been gracious to us, so we appreciate it.

Andrew Bornman: 01:21:04

Please keep it up, because I see a big success for this, and I want it to be successful.

Andrew Bornman: 01:21:09

So I'm grateful to talk with you and share.

Parker Brown: 01:21:10

Thanks, Will.

Andrew Bornman: 01:21:11

Cheers, buddy.