Episode 207
DR. JAMES WHITE & JIM HUNTER: Scriptural Truth and Kingdom Wealth at Fight, Laugh, Feast
My second episode from Fight Laugh Feast features conversations with Dr. James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries and Jim Hunter of Alps Precious Metals Group, and opens a rich dialogue about the intersection of faith and modern economic practices.
First, Jim Hunter shares his compelling journey from a successful career in high finance to running a Christian precious metals trading company. His insights into the corruption within the financial industry and the importance of investing in tangible assets like gold and silver resonate deeply, as he emphasizes the need for Christians to take control of their financial futures.
Then, Dr. James White contributes his extensive knowledge of apologetics, discussing the importance of Sola Scriptura and its relevance in today's cultural debates. With nearly 200 public debates under his belt, White shares anecdotes about defending the faith against various worldviews, including Roman Catholicism and secularism. He provides insights on the Coherence-Based Genealogical Method (CBGM), which analyzes biblical texts, reinforcing the reliability of scripture and illustrating the importance of defending the faith amidst modern challenges.
Takeaways:
- Jim Hunter discusses his transition from high finance to Christian precious metals trading, emphasizing integrity and faithfulness.
- Dr. James White shares his extensive experience in apologetics, highlighting the importance of sound theology and biblical criticism.
- The episode explores the impact of secular influences on Christian thought, particularly in debates around sola scriptura.
- Both guests reflect on the resurgence of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy in contemporary discourse, urging for a robust defense of Reformed theology.
- The conversation underscores the necessity for Christians to engage actively in cultural restoration, emphasizing the role of economics and faith.
EPISODE 1 feat. Isaac Botkin & Logan Ryser
CONNECT WITH DR. JAMES WHITE
CONNECT WITH JIM HUNTER
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Transcript
Hello, my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the Will Spencer Podcast.
Will Spencer:This is a weekly show featuring in depth conversations with authors, leaders and influencers who help us understand our changing world.
Will Spencer:New episodes release every Friday.
Will Spencer:This is episode two of my three part series from my podcast booth at the Fight Laugh Feast Conference in late October.
Will Spencer:If you haven't listened to my first episode with Isaac Botkin and Logan Reiser, definitely go do that now.
Will Spencer:Those two men kicked off my weekend at the conference in style, talking about the impact of faith on both commerce and art.
Will Spencer:Those interviews will set the stage for you for how things generally go out there at flf.
Will Spencer:Today's episode brings together two journeys, one from the heights of secular finance to Christian precious metals trading, and another a distinguished career in Reformed apologetics, which he's now taken on the road, literally.
Will Spencer:For my regular listeners, one of these two guests won't need an introduction, so we'll save that particular guest for after so first up, we have Jim Hunter from Alps Precious Metals.
Will Spencer:Jim and I were talking privately in a sort of green room for sponsors and speakers, and he had an intriguing story of his awakening to the corruption of the financial industry after a career in high finance.
Will Spencer:Since then he's transitioned to running Alps Precious Metals Group, which offers physical precious metals trading and storage in the United States and Europe, among many other services.
Will Spencer:Jim is one of those rare believers who has put his lifetime of experience in an important industry to bear for the benefit of fellow Christians.
Will Spencer:That is a trend that I'm thrilled to see.
Will Spencer:Professionals of all stripes like doctors, lawyers, software engineers and more are leaving their mainstream professional worlds to serve their brothers and sisters in Christ, putting their knowledge and experience into service for the Kingdom.
Will Spencer:Jim is doing just that from a place of scriptural awareness and faithfulness, which I think you'll hear, and perhaps that's why he also appeared on Cross Politic as well.
Will Spencer:You can find that link in the show notes then.
Will Spencer:The second guest on this episode is none other than Dr.
Will Spencer:James White, the legendary apologist, author and debater who has conducted close to 200 moderated public debates with Roman Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, the LGBTQ community, and more.
Will Spencer:As it turns out, Dr.
Will Spencer:White has also been my most requested guest on this podcast.
Will Spencer: Reformed theology, It was his: Will Spencer:In our wide ranging hour long conversation, Dr.
Will Spencer:White and I explore his new RV lifestyle.
Will Spencer:We dive into the latest biblical criticism tools as we try to make our way into a discussion of the resurgent Roman Catholic Church, though that last topic will have to wait for a future episode.
Will Spencer:Along the way we get a surprise visit from Keith Foske, host of the popular your Calvinist podcast.
Will Spencer:Keith ducked in to share the story of how he and Dr.
Will Spencer:White met, and it's one of those moments that I wish I had caught on camera so you could see the face he makes, but you'll just have to imagine it.
Will Spencer:Thanks especially to Dr.
Will Spencer:White for sitting with me for an hour.
Will Spencer:A man like him at an event like that, his time is very valuable.
Will Spencer:I was blessed for the chance to meet and talk face to face with a man that I esteem highly and I hope our conversation blesses you as well.
Will Spencer:Again, this is episode two of a three part series.
Will Spencer:The third and final episode next week will feature a discussion of Christianity and film with Parker Brown of the Watchwell podcast, plus interviews with the father and son duo of Andrew and Samuel Bornman.
Will Spencer:Andrew is a missionary farmer with wild stories of his work with a native tribe in Mexico, and his son Samuel is the author of a young adult novel about Christianity and transhumanism.
Will Spencer:That was one of my most memorable conversations of the conference.
Will Spencer:Now friends, we're not just recording conversations here.
Will Spencer:We're part of a restoration project for Christian civilization in the west, and I need you in this fight with me.
Will Spencer:There are a couple ways that you can join this mission.
Will Spencer:First, when you stop by Spotify or Apple Podcasts, take a moment to write a review about how these conversations impacted you.
Will Spencer:Your words might be exactly what someone else needs to hear to give this show their first listen.
Will Spencer:And you know those conversations that hit you right between the eyes?
Will Spencer:The ones that shifted your thinking?
Will Spencer:Share those.
Will Spencer:Not because I'm chasing download numbers, but because we're in a war for the soul of our culture.
Will Spencer:And these conversations are ammunition for the right side.
Will Spencer:For those ready to go deeper with us, head over to willspencerpaw.substack.com and become a paid subscriber.
Will Spencer:You'll get access to ad free interviews and exclusive content.
Will Spencer:But here's what really matters when you see our sponsors names, remember, they're not just businesses, they're allies building Christian economic strength for generations to come.
Will Spencer:Supporting them isn't just opening your wallet, it's investing in an American Reformation.
Will Spencer:Because this isn't just about entertainment anymore.
Will Spencer:This is economic warfare in service of the kingdom.
Will Spencer:And please welcome our guests for this week's episode first up, a man who traded Wall street wisdom for kingdom wealth building, Jim Hunter.
Will Spencer:And sitting down with us for a full 60 minutes, a voice that shaped reformed thinking for a generation.
Will Spencer:You know him from the debate stage, the pulpit, and probably your own Theological Journey, Dr.
Will Spencer:James White.
Jim Hunter:Jim, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast Connect Talk.
Jim Hunter:Yesterday, briefly about gold.
Jim Hunter:I had to run to go on my own podcast with Reformation Red Pill.
Jim Hunter:But tell the people a little bit about what you do and the blessings that you share with the Christian community.
Dr. James White:Sure.
Dr. James White:I am in the physical gold and silver trading and vaulting business.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:Our company is based in Pensacola, Florida, but I have partners, two partners in the United States, one actually in your hometown, Phoenix, Scottsdale Monetary Metals, which is a.
Dr. James White:That partner focuses on getting return on gold and return on silver.
Dr. James White:One of the biggest pushbacks for physical gold and silver is like, well, gee, I just put it in my house and I don't get any cash flow from it.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Dr. James White:But monetary metals is essentially, they have not made a new mousetrap.
Dr. James White:It's just going back to the way things were.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Dr. James White:100 plus years ago it was standard operating procedure.
Dr. James White:You have gold bonds, gold leases, and that's all they've done is brought that back.
Dr. James White:Typically the borrowers are a small gold mine that needs to build a small refinery outside the mouth of the mine.
Dr. James White:Jewelers, gold dealers, etc.
Dr. James White:Firms that need to lease gold and they like to stay away from banks because banks will handcuff them from what they like to do.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:My other partner in the United States is Texas Precious Metals, based in Shiner, Texas, which we're here in Fort Worth.
Dr. James White:It's about three, four hours to the southeast of here.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:Christian family from top to bottom.
Dr. James White:The original patriarch of the Casper K A S P A R family was a Lutheran missionary to the prairie land of Texas in the late 19th century.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:Now, he did nothing but preach the gospel in open Lutheran churches.
Dr. James White:But his son got in the wire business right when barbed wire came in.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:And his wire business eventually evolved into the shopping cart.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:And then after that, many of your listeners may not know of these things, but not that long ago, when newspapers were ubiquitous, to buy one on the street, there was a kind of a wire ish canister that you would open, put in a quarter or two quarters and open all of the wire.
Dr. James White:And all of those boxes all over the world came from Casper.
Jim Hunter:That's a good business.
Dr. James White:So needless to say, they've become a very, very, very wealthy family.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Dr. James White: And then after the: Dr. James White:That evolved into Texas Precious Metals.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:And they're one of the largest private dealers in the country and certainly one of the largest private vaults in the country.
Dr. James White:And that's the whole key to what we bring to the table is the ability for Christian families and especially will the churches.
Dr. James White:I've been on sessions, vestries, et cetera.
Dr. James White:When most church sessions are thinking we're going to be conservative.
Dr. James White:That translates into I'm going to put a CD in a bank, buy treasury bills, et cetera.
Dr. James White:But normally it's CDs in a bank.
Dr. James White: would be in jeopardy if we do: Dr. James White:Yeah.
Dr. James White:Without getting way into the weeds, it's simply title two of the Dodd Frank law.
Dr. James White:If anybody pulls that up, they'll be shocked at how the corporate structure has changed.
Dr. James White:If you get into another insolvency bankruptcy of the Wall Street.
Jim Hunter:Got it.
Dr. James White:So that's how we add value, by converting dollars to physical gold.
Dr. James White:We're not asking people to light their hair on fire and turn go 100% gold.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Dr. James White:But we are saying what gold does is it rallies in chaos.
Dr. James White:Best vignette and I can give you others.
Dr. James White: ,: Dr. James White:23 years later and we have essentially 10x gold over that period of time.
Dr. James White:That blows away the S and P 500.
Dr. James White:That blows away.
Dr. James White:Now, are there certain.
Dr. James White:Did it beat bitcoin?
Dr. James White:Well, no.
Dr. James White:There are certain things that come along, but if we look on market averages, there's no comparison.
Jim Hunter:Absolutely.
Dr. James White:So the question simply at this stage of the game is simply, well, gee, should I get into gold now?
Dr. James White:Because we're at a nominal high.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Dr. James White:It really comes down to the question of chaos.
Dr. James White:Do if we saw the chaos going forward should be less then you would tend to want to get out of gold and go back into risk.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Dr. James White:More riskier ventures.
Dr. James White:Or if I could trust the banking system.
Dr. James White:I think neither one of those are true.
Dr. James White:If I end up being wrong, let's say either not wealthy family or a wealthy family took a 10% position in gold or a church 10% position ago.
Dr. James White:If I end up being wrong and the chaos goes down and everything's great and the stock market keeps going higher, well, okay, you bought some gold and went down, but it's going to be More than made up for in terms of what you're rallying.
Dr. James White:But if I'm right and the chaos continues, if a 10% position over 20 years protected your entire portfolio.
Dr. James White:Because it's up 10x.
Dr. James White:Right?
Will Spencer:Right.
Dr. James White:10% up 10x.
Dr. James White:I covered the whole thing, even if it all went to zero.
Jim Hunter:Yep.
Dr. James White:That's where we're coming from.
Dr. James White:That's where we think we have money.
Jim Hunter:So we were talking, you and I, yesterday.
Jim Hunter:Hello, ma'am.
Jim Hunter:You and I were talking yesterday about some of your background in high finance and the things that you saw.
Jim Hunter:You're like, talk a little bit about that because you've had a unique window into a particularly corrupt part of society that impacts everybody.
Jim Hunter:But not a lot of people come out of that world and say, hey, it's a mess in there.
Will Spencer:Right.
Jim Hunter:So if you could talk a little bit about that.
Dr. James White:Sure.
Dr. James White:Started in the institutional fixed income business, which means the bond.
Dr. James White:The bond world.
Dr. James White:The book.
Dr. James White:The Bonfire of the Vanities by Tom Wolf.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:80S.
Jim Hunter:Yeah, that's.
Dr. James White:That's what.
Dr. James White:Where I was, okay, I worked for Merrill lynch and I worked for Lehman Brothers over about a 15 year period.
Dr. James White:And then in 03, excuse me, 05, I started a structured credit hedge fund with a partner of mine in a little town called Fairhope, Alabama.
Dr. James White:I was born and raised in Alabama.
Dr. James White:My partner was on the very first credit default swap desk for CIBC in New York.
Jim Hunter:Oh, wow.
Dr. James White:He had moved back to Pharaoh, as I did, to kind of get out of that game.
Jim Hunter:Credit default swaps were bad.
Dr. James White:They were great until they got levered.
Jim Hunter:Oh, okay.
Dr. James White:The concept of credit default swap is fine.
Dr. James White:What is not fine is when you lever that credit default swap over multiple times, whether it's a credit default swap or filling the blank futures contracts, et cetera.
Dr. James White:Once you start levering those because you've got free money from the central banking system, that's where you get into trouble.
Jim Hunter:Got it.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:So the.
Dr. James White:So the film, the big short.
Dr. James White:Yes.
Dr. James White:Even a better one is Margin Call.
Dr. James White:Have you ever seen Margin Call?
Jim Hunter:I've heard of both of those.
Dr. James White:Margin Call is.
Dr. James White:Having been in some of those rooms, Margin Call absolutely nails it.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:And it gives you a great picture of, in a very condensed two hour film of what happened in 08.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:But we were.
Dr. James White:We were a small structured credit hedge fund.
Dr. James White:We were short investment grade credit risk.
Dr. James White:And when the credit world fell apart, our fund did very well.
Will Spencer:Okay.
Dr. James White:The problem was, is the denouement of that.
Dr. James White:One of the ways we competed with Wall street was we said to our Accounts, we will give you three day liquidity.
Dr. James White:We will not have any trap doors or gates or all a lot of the nonsense that happened with the hedge funds during that period of time.
Dr. James White:Well, as a result, we did what we said we were going to do.
Dr. James White:And we went from 35 million in assets under management to 2.
Dr. James White:Well, because we were a source of liquidity, that was the right thing to do.
Dr. James White:And a lot of our accounts were like, you're the only guys that will give us liquidity.
Dr. James White:You're the only ones that have done the right thing.
Dr. James White:So we did the right thing.
Dr. James White:Long story short, the.
Dr. James White:Our swap counterparties were some of the investment banks on Wall Street.
Dr. James White:They were having trouble paying us, even though we were a little bitty nothing in fourth quarter of 08.
Dr. James White:Fast forward the clock.
Dr. James White:Nine months.
Dr. James White:Same guy, totally different attitude.
Dr. James White: ummer of what would have been: Dr. James White:Y'all don't get to play anymore.
Dr. James White:And we were sitting there saying, this is rich.
Dr. James White:These guys should be out of business.
Dr. James White:We shouldn't even be talking to this guy.
Dr. James White:And yet we're being told that we can't.
Dr. James White:We're too small to do this trade.
Dr. James White:Now, that was sort of a.
Dr. James White:I mean, I'd already worked on Wall street, but this was kind of the crowning event.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Dr. James White:And I had.
Jim Hunter:You were just invited out of a room that you had just helped a lot of folks out in?
Jim Hunter:Yeah, yeah.
Dr. James White:Just surreal.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:Were we cool, like five minutes ago?
Dr. James White:So did some independent stuff.
Dr. James White:And eventually there was a family office that was one of our clients in the structured credit hedge fund.
Dr. James White:And they were contemplating building a vault in the Northern hemisphere.
Dr. James White:But the patriarch of the family hired me to go do the due diligence.
Dr. James White:So I went to Europe, talked to Lloyds of London, talked to Julius Baer, one of the big bank gold dealers in Zurich, but ended up meeting a company that was brand new called Liechtenstein Precious Metals.
Dr. James White:Tiny little country of Lincoln's time, okay?
Dr. James White:Two families, two families took their own capital, built this thing from scratch.
Dr. James White:Their own capital, own, building, own.
Dr. James White:Insured by Lloyds of London.
Dr. James White:So you are able to store and trade your gold and silver not dealing with a bank, not dealing with the government, and not dealing with a brokerage company.
Dr. James White:This was the answer.
Dr. James White:So I started my little company in Pensacola because these guys in Europe were like, sure, we'd love to have a partner in the United States and help us, you know, build out our clientele.
Dr. James White:We are eight years old.
Dr. James White:We're over eight years old now.
Dr. James White:And over that time, how the Holy Spirit directs things, I mean, I've ended up talking to a lot of Americans that are like, okay, we love the concept, but we really don't want it offshore.
Dr. James White:We'd love it onshore.
Dr. James White:And through a series of events, that's how I met the guys in Shiner Texas.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:And thanks be to God, you know, only he could have directed me.
Dr. James White:Right.
Dr. James White:To a family that is some of the most robust Christians you're going to meet.
Jim Hunter:Got it.
Dr. James White:And that's who your partner is.
Dr. James White:So when the churches Christian individuals are thinking of, how do I.
Dr. James White:I'm not sure things are right.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Dr. James White:What can I do?
Dr. James White:And that's where we step in.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Jim Hunter:And so the people who partner with you, they're not some offshore gold company.
Jim Hunter:This is here in Texas with a family of Christians.
Jim Hunter:So that you can be assured that the people that you're partnering with share your values.
Dr. James White:Correct.
Jim Hunter:That's not some fly by night, some sort of.
Jim Hunter:Okay, great.
Jim Hunter:I mean, what a blessing for families.
Jim Hunter:You've probably seen it touch a lot, a lot of lives that way.
Dr. James White:Absolutely.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:So what has it been like for you to go through that?
Jim Hunter:I guess maybe personal or even spiritual evolution to have been within the high finance world and to be putting your foundation on gold and on faith?
Jim Hunter:Like, what has that been like for you personally?
Dr. James White:Sure, it's.
Dr. James White:Well, it's, it's been just.
Dr. James White:I spent a lot of time.
Dr. James White: rting, as I said, Starting in: Dr. James White:My partner was Christian.
Dr. James White:So what we were doing, doing in our office was outstanding and blessed by God.
Dr. James White:But it's who you're dealing with in this situation.
Dr. James White:Now, I'm coming from the position of, well, we are.
Dr. James White:We are the bank.
Dr. James White:We are quote, unquote, the bank, but we are the direct partner and without counterparties.
Dr. James White:This is.
Dr. James White:This, these families.
Dr. James White:If, if one of our listeners wanted to be offshore or is offshore, we can do that in Europe.
Dr. James White:But most of your listeners are probably in the United States.
Dr. James White:I mean, this is.
Dr. James White:We don't have to talk to anybody else.
Dr. James White:This is going directly to the people that built it.
Dr. James White:And I'm dealing with a Christian brother.
Dr. James White:So it has been nothing but a gift from God.
Jim Hunter:Praise God.
Jim Hunter:Yes, I can see the enthusiasm.
Jim Hunter:That's the thing that comes across because I know a lot of people, they get themselves embedded in industries that are, we'll say, theologically diverse, whether they're Atheists or whether they're pagans or materialists or whatever.
Jim Hunter:And so to some extent it's necessary as Christians to work with the outside world.
Jim Hunter:We can't completely separate.
Jim Hunter:But to be able to do things on our own terms is such a blessing.
Jim Hunter:And so I can tell the way you're nodding and the way when we were talking yesterday, it's like this was a big step that you needed to take in this world that you had come up in to something that can support you and offer blessings to more people.
Dr. James White:Right.
Dr. James White:And I had a conversation in our booth today and it's like, why did you do it?
Dr. James White:Or whatever.
Dr. James White:And it really comes down to the fact that I, as opposed to selling 25 million worth of a commercial mortgage backed security.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. James White:That was issued by a government agency.
Dr. James White:Okay.
Dr. James White:Well I don't believe in the government agency.
Dr. James White:I do believe in helping my clients that wanted to buy those sort of bonds.
Dr. James White:But at the end of the day you're not.
Dr. James White:But I don't believe in this.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. James White:This is a totally different story.
Dr. James White:If Will Spencer and his family get involved, I.
Dr. James White:It is not only is it clear conscience, it's like I have truly added value.
Dr. James White:Yes, I may not see you again for a year, but I know, but I know that I added value to it.
Dr. James White:And what's even more interesting now is that some of the, at least one bank, large bank, the cibc, Canadian Imperial bank of Commerce.
Dr. James White:And this, this is a real value add for a church, for a family.
Dr. James White:You can have your deposit with us in gold, in shiner.
Dr. James White:But CIBC is going to treat that deposit as if you had the deposit with them in their bank.
Dr. James White:Meaning you can have the full suite of financial services if you want them.
Dr. James White:You need a home equity loan, you need a line of credit, you need a building loan, you need a whatever, they're going to give it to you.
Dr. James White:But they never get the deposit.
Dr. James White:And that's the key of what we were talking about earlier relative to the Dodd Frank law.
Dr. James White:The Dodd Frank law is going to allow what is essentially a claw in of the defunct bank to go after the deposits of their depositors.
Dr. James White:It is a, it's terrible.
Jim Hunter:It's not very good.
Dr. James White:Oh no, it's really.
Jim Hunter:How does it feel like that get passed?
Dr. James White:Because a lot of times congressmen don't even know what they're doing.
Dr. James White:They don't understand, they don't understand capital structure.
Dr. James White: If you go back to Cyprus in: Dr. James White:It's terrible, but it's true.
Jim Hunter:Got it.
Dr. James White:Now is it a tail risk event?
Dr. James White:Yeah, it's a tail risk event.
Dr. James White:But if it.
Dr. James White: But so is: Dr. James White:So was the Great Depression.
Dr. James White:So you got it.
Dr. James White:For this not to be a material risk, you have to say, I don't believe that's ever going to happen again.
Jim Hunter:Dangerous bet.
Dr. James White:I don't think that's wise.
Dr. James White:Right, so you're being wise as a serpent is innocent as a dove.
Dr. James White:And you're.
Dr. James White:And again, think of it this way, you're coming with, not lighting your hair on fire, not going 100% gold.
Dr. James White:10, 15, 20, some number.
Will Spencer:Yeah.
Dr. James White:But now you've got the deposit where you're in the position of strength.
Dr. James White:Not the bank, they don't have your deposit, they can't muck you around with it.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Dr. James White:They can't 90% lend it out and keep 10% for you.
Jim Hunter:Right?
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. James White:This is all you.
Dr. James White:And you face this now.
Dr. James White:You're facing the system in a position of strength.
Jim Hunter:Got it.
Dr. James White:You can do the same thing with IRAs.
Dr. James White:Now, IRAs, you still have the government claw on them, right?
Dr. James White:Because of the fact that it's a tax free instrument, et cetera.
Dr. James White:But at least you're in physical gold and silver.
Jim Hunter:Got it.
Dr. James White:So there are lots of different ways where a family, a church, a corporation that has God's given them assets.
Dr. James White:You do not have to be beholden to a system which is sadly one that needs to be bulldozed and start over again.
Jim Hunter:It does.
Dr. James White:You know, if, if, if the system was a true capitalist system, JP Morgan wouldn't exist.
Dr. James White:Neither would Goldman Sachs, neither would Citibank, neither would bank of America, neither would Morgan Stanley.
Jim Hunter:That's right.
Dr. James White:All five of those guys were functionally insolvent.
Dr. James White:What should have happened is they should have been sold for pennies on the dollar.
Dr. James White:And there were plenty of other institutions around the country that didn't have their exposure.
Jim Hunter:Right?
Dr. James White:But we didn't do the way we should have.
Dr. James White:And so we've got guys flying around in airplanes that are very important, quote, unquote, and they shouldn't be in the airplanes.
Jim Hunter:The malfeasance, the mismanagement, the incompetence, the corruption.
Jim Hunter:And this is, it's, it's not just rewarded, it's just sustained.
Jim Hunter:And you have smaller players that can't even.
Jim Hunter:How can you compete in an environment where corruption is rewarded and smaller players have to play by the rules.
Will Spencer:Right.
Jim Hunter:It's completely upside down.
Dr. James White:Rules for thee and not for me.
Jim Hunter:Correct, Correct.
Jim Hunter:And everyone feels that.
Jim Hunter:I think they can feel the sense of like wait a minute.
Jim Hunter:So I try to be a good person, I play by the rules financially, pay my taxes on time, etc, etc.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Jim Hunter:And like I now there's what, 70,000 additional IRS agents chasing after.
Jim Hunter:They're chasing.
Jim Hunter:There was some law passed.
Jim Hunter:They're chasing after, what is it?
Jim Hunter:Non realized gains.
Jim Hunter:Something like that.
Dr. James White:Oh, which is.
Dr. James White:You want to kill the.
Dr. James White:You want to kill American.
Dr. James White:I mean that's the dumbest thing that ever came down the.
Jim Hunter:Yeah, it should be criminal.
Jim Hunter:And you look at the top of that, you see corruption being rewarded at the highest levels.
Jim Hunter:It's hard not to get discouraged in that environment.
Dr. James White:But if we're wise as serpents and as doves, we'll go, okay, there's the playing field.
Dr. James White:How can I maneuver around that player playing field?
Dr. James White:The one way, one of the, one of the ways to do it is get to a position of strength and keep in mind if I, you know, will you and I probably discussed five or six, you know, different reasons rationale for why you want to be long.
Dr. James White:Go.
Dr. James White:Yeah, forget them all and remember the one, the one crowning argument.
Dr. James White:What is the number one physical or tangible asset outside of the real estate of every government in the world?
Dr. James White:It's physical.
Jim Hunter:Physical gold.
Dr. James White:88,133 tons is the size of the US government Federal Reserve position.
Dr. James White:That's value right now is 700 billion.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:It's their fail safe.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Dr. James White:What if I don't let the futures market fool around with gold anymore because I've run out of options and I just let gold fly.
Dr. James White: e to the right and gold's not: Dr. James White:I went from an asset of 700 trillion to 700 billion to 7 trillion.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Dr. James White:Let it move twice and now I don't got a debt problem.
Jim Hunter:That's right.
Dr. James White:I'm just saying I just want to be on the same side of the trade as those guys are.
Jim Hunter:That's a good point.
Dr. James White:It's very compelling.
Jim Hunter:Well, thank you so much, Jim.
Jim Hunter:This has been great.
Jim Hunter:Where can people find out more about you and the business that you're running?
Dr. James White:Sure.
Jim Hunter:There's a lot of people here to talk to as well.
Jim Hunter:For you as well.
Dr. James White:Absolutely.
Jim Hunter:Preach this gospel.
Dr. James White:This has been a great.
Dr. James White:It's the second year we've been at Fight Laugh, Feast.
Dr. James White:It's great to be with brothers and sisters in Christ, period.
Dr. James White:And then to tell the story.
Dr. James White:And so it's on the web.
Dr. James White:It's www.alps.pmg.
Dr. James White:so a L P S P M G dot com.
Jim Hunter:Yep.
Dr. James White:And my phone number is easy too.
Dr. James White: -: Jim Hunter:Okay.
Dr. James White:And I will text back or call back or whatever it is, but that's, that's the best way to get in touch with.
Will Spencer:All right.
Jim Hunter:Fantastic, sir.
Jim Hunter:I hope a lot of people get in touch cuz I think people will hear what you just had to say.
Jim Hunter:We want to be in that pot.
Dr. James White:Yes, sir.
Dr. James White:Thank you, Will.
Dr. James White:You're very kind.
Will Spencer:Thank you, sir.
Dr. James White:Appreciate it.
Jim Hunter:Pastor James White, thanks for joining me on the podcast today.
Keith Foskey:Good.
Keith Foskey:Good to be here.
Keith Foskey:Even though we're not in Arizona, we're in today rainy, rainy Texas.
Jim Hunter:So, okay, about that.
Jim Hunter:You're glad you're not flying anymore.
Jim Hunter:So RV life is suiting you.
Jim Hunter:I listen to the dividing line.
Jim Hunter:You talk about the troubles of RV.
Keith Foskey:Life and the challenges that you look, you're dragging a house down interstates that are not always overly well maintained.
Keith Foskey:Texas does a fairly decent job.
Keith Foskey:New Mexico, not so much.
Keith Foskey:Louisiana doesn't even try.
Keith Foskey:Alabama does a great job, interestingly enough.
Keith Foskey:It's very interesting how different each one is.
Keith Foskey:But look, that poor little house experiences like 20 earthquakes a day.
Keith Foskey:What would your house look like if it had 20 earthquakes a day?
Jim Hunter:Probably not.
Keith Foskey:Well, so, yeah, you've got to repair stuff.
Keith Foskey:You've got to tighten up screws and stuff breaks, and that's the way it is.
Keith Foskey:But it's my bed, my pillow, my clothes, my shower, my food, my refrigerator, and my portable webcasting studio with two 4K cameras, Atem and Starlink and 5G and everything else in the back.
Keith Foskey:So, yeah, it's been a learning curve.
Keith Foskey:But when you all are banned from flying because you won't stick poisonous stuff in your bodies, you're all going to be coming to me going, okay, how do we do this?
Keith Foskey:And I'm going to start my own webcast on how to attach sewer hoses without getting all sorts of stuff all over your hands.
Keith Foskey:And yeah, there's little things you learn.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, definitely.
Jim Hunter:Well, I've been traveling, I've been on the road this week.
Jim Hunter:And I can understand and definitely empathize with the desire to have my own bed instead of an Airbnb bed or something like that.
Keith Foskey:I tell you, at my age, that's a game changer because I have arthritis, kidney issues, heart issues, all Sorts of stuff like that.
Keith Foskey:So having regularity is very, very important and not having to deal with TSA is a great blessing.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:I took a bus, actually.
Jim Hunter:I flew into Houston to visit a friend and then took a luxury bus down here from Houston to Dallas.
Jim Hunter:And that was so much nicer.
Jim Hunter:It was a little bit more expensive than a flight, but I didn't have to worry about TSA or security or all of that whole dance.
Jim Hunter:Just get on the bus and work for four hours.
Keith Foskey:But I did the same drive from Spring, which is just north of Houston, up here on Wednesday, and it was my worst heart day of the year.
Keith Foskey:I drove four hours in supraventricular tachycardia.
Will Spencer:Oh.
Keith Foskey:So my heart was in a completely unusual rhythm over twice normal speed all the way.
Keith Foskey:Driving from just north of Houston up here to Dallas.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:That wasn't fun.
Jim Hunter:No, that doesn't sound fun.
Keith Foskey:Didn't make it a fun trip.
Keith Foskey:So, yeah, there are some things like that.
Keith Foskey:But most of the time, you know, as I nod off, what I really love is when it rains because the sound of the rain on the roof of an RV and a little bit of rocking back and forth, a little bit of wind.
Keith Foskey:Man, talk about knocking you out.
Keith Foskey:It's.
Keith Foskey:It's awesome.
Jim Hunter:You're selling me on RV life.
Keith Foskey:Well, depends on what happens in the election as to whether there's going to be an RV industry in the future because really.
Keith Foskey:Well, think about it.
Jim Hunter:Oh, environmental standards.
Keith Foskey:Not only environmental stuff, but it's the fossil fuels.
Keith Foskey:You can't pull an RV with an electric vehicle.
Jim Hunter:No, you can't do much of anything.
Keith Foskey:I have a 6.1.6 liter turbo diesel with a 10 speed Allison transmission pulling that sucker.
Keith Foskey:So, yeah, we'll see what happens in the future.
Keith Foskey:We'll see what happens in the future.
Keith Foskey:I've said, and I feel selfish saying this, but I've selfishly said I hope for a certain outcome in the election, not just for my grandchildren and my great grandchildren, but so I can get another at least four years worth of traveling in.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:Because if Trump wins, this will probably air after all that, I would imagine.
Keith Foskey:I don't know.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, most likely, you know, if Trump wins, I assume I'll get another four years where I'll be able to afford.
Keith Foskey:Afford fuel and travel around if he doesn't.
Keith Foskey:I don't have any guarantees of that.
Jim Hunter:That's true.
Keith Foskey:So is that selfish?
Keith Foskey:Yeah, I suppose.
Keith Foskey:But I really enjoy doing what I'm doing.
Keith Foskey:I get into so many smaller churches.
Keith Foskey:Sure.
Keith Foskey:You know when you.
Keith Foskey:When you do the flying routine, you know, people have to come see you when I'm driving, you know, like on Sunday, I'm going to speak at a little missions church for a friend of mine about 50 miles from here.
Keith Foskey:I don't get.
Keith Foskey:You don't get the chance to do that because, see, mine's called a fifth wheel, so I can detach from it.
Keith Foskey:And now I've got a truck to go wherever I need to go.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:So I'll be driving down to.
Keith Foskey:I think it's called Granbury or something here in Texas.
Keith Foskey:Old friend that.
Keith Foskey:He and I went to seminary together.
Keith Foskey:I mean, we've been friends for many, many, many years.
Keith Foskey:And I don't get to do that if I'm flying.
Keith Foskey:You know, I have to be renting vehicles and doing all sorts of stuff like that.
Keith Foskey:And rental car stuff was so much fun, too.
Jim Hunter:Oh, no, it's a blast.
Keith Foskey:Those lines.
Keith Foskey:Those lines at the airport to get a rental vehicle, and then you get into it and you can't find anything.
Keith Foskey:You don't know where the turn signals are.
Keith Foskey:Oh, it's.
Keith Foskey:Believe me, I did it for years and years and years.
Keith Foskey:So anyways, no one cares about my.
Keith Foskey:Well, I'll take that back.
Keith Foskey:Somebody might be going, you know, that might be how I need to do things in the future.
Keith Foskey:So maybe that'll be helpful to them.
Keith Foskey:But they're more important things to talk about.
Jim Hunter:Well, I like the idea, just quickly, I like the idea that you're able to stop into these small churches along the way that you otherwise wouldn't be able to visit.
Jim Hunter:You're coming up on 200 public debates now, right?
Keith Foskey:You know what's horrible is I did a debate a week ago today, and I don't know how I'm gonna go back and fix this, but I have forgotten which debate it was.
Keith Foskey:It was either one.
Keith Foskey:It was either 194 or 195, and I'm not exactly certain which one.
Keith Foskey:And I just feel like my memory is going.
Keith Foskey:I can't keep track of stuff like that.
Keith Foskey:But, yeah, that is another way that you can get to do debates in certain areas, like I'm supposed to.
Keith Foskey: struggling to schedule things: Keith Foskey:And so I have scheduled a King James only debate in Louisiana, I think, in April.
Keith Foskey:And so on the way, we have a email address, roadtripomn.org and if a church wants to have me in sort of Informally, in the sense.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:I'm gonna be driving by.
Keith Foskey:I'm gonna be staying near you.
Keith Foskey:It might be a Tuesday night.
Keith Foskey:I'm not gonna be wearing a suit and tie.
Keith Foskey:Maybe we'll just do something with the elders or something like that.
Keith Foskey:Whatever they send in that contact information, I have this whole map with pins all over the United States.
Jim Hunter:Amazing.
Keith Foskey:Of churches that have said, hey, whatever day it is, just let us know.
Keith Foskey:We'll work something out.
Keith Foskey:And so if I.
Keith Foskey:Honestly, if I wanted to be doing something almost every night while traveling, I could.
Keith Foskey:I can't do that.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:I'd be exhausted.
Keith Foskey:But it has been so neat because Alpha Mega has been going for over 41 years now, praise God.
Keith Foskey:And we've had a lot of impact over the years.
Keith Foskey:And now I get to meet a lot of those people in these little churches.
Keith Foskey:I stopped at a little.
Keith Foskey:I spoke at a little church in Montana, and I'm talking little church, no air conditioning.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:And this woman comes up to me after I speak.
Keith Foskey:I'm soaked in sweat because they're having a heat wave.
Keith Foskey:There's no air conditioning.
Keith Foskey:There's just fans.
Keith Foskey:And I'm sitting on the front row with this lady, and she says, you need to understand.
Keith Foskey:My son told me that I need to come hear you speak.
Keith Foskey:I didn't know who you were, but my son told me he's in South America.
Keith Foskey:I think he was.
Keith Foskey:No, no, he's in the South Pacific.
Keith Foskey:He had joined, like, a cruise line.
Keith Foskey:He had gotten on a ship.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:And then he jumped ship.
Keith Foskey:And he was just out there living the life in the South Pacific and somehow ran across Jeff Durbin and I on YouTube and was converted in the South Pacific, praise God.
Keith Foskey:And so he's talking to his mom, and his mom tells him, hey, I've heard this church.
Keith Foskey:This guy named James White's guy.
Keith Foskey:You've got to go see him.
Keith Foskey:And tells him the whole story.
Keith Foskey:So here I am in Montana talking to the mom of a guy that was converted through Jeff and I's ministry in South Pacific.
Keith Foskey:How does that even happen?
Jim Hunter:And that's.
Keith Foskey:And she'd never get to go to, like, G3 or something big like this to sit around and tell me this stuff.
Will Spencer:Right.
Keith Foskey:So, yeah, I'm enjoying it.
Jim Hunter:So this experience, you meet all these people that you get to see firsthand the impact of your 40 years of ministry.
Keith Foskey:40 years.
Keith Foskey:And sometimes it was a long, long, long time ago.
Keith Foskey:I mean, sure, the things that the Lord has done was stuff that we did back when we had nothing and it could be very discouraging.
Keith Foskey:I mean, you know, my wife had to work full time.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:Until just recently.
Keith Foskey:That's the only way that she and I had health insurance.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:All those years was that she was.
Keith Foskey:She worked in the airline industry.
Keith Foskey:She didn't fly, but she worked in reservation.
Keith Foskey:She worked in luggage.
Keith Foskey:When she went to work in luggage.
Keith Foskey:I have to admit, that was sort of cool.
Jim Hunter:Why is that?
Keith Foskey:Because you lose your luggage.
Keith Foskey:But I knew who to call.
Jim Hunter:Oh, got it.
Keith Foskey:I just called the wife, and she has access to.
Keith Foskey:There's this computerized thing that all the airlines use.
Keith Foskey:And she's like, I'm on it, you know, and she'll call me back to me.
Keith Foskey:Okay, it'll be delivered such and such and such place.
Keith Foskey:And she first started doing that, she was so excited to get to do it.
Keith Foskey:And then she took a flight, and she calls me and says, well, my luggage is missing.
Keith Foskey:I said, well, do you know what to do?
Keith Foskey:No.
Keith Foskey:No sympathy out of me.
Keith Foskey:You seem to enjoy when mine gets lost.
Keith Foskey:So, yeah, it was.
Keith Foskey:It was.
Keith Foskey:It was sort of fun to have that kind of connection.
Keith Foskey:So, anyway, I'm sorry.
Keith Foskey:No, I'm babbling on.
Jim Hunter:No, that's okay.
Jim Hunter:Like, so we're talking about the.
Jim Hunter:The opportunity to meet the people that you've impacted over your 40 years of ministry.
Jim Hunter:And I know that the Apologia channel has over 500,000 subscribers.
Jim Hunter:There are people, possibly likely hundreds or even thousands of people watching one of those videos right now.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, that's true.
Jim Hunter:Sort of.
Jim Hunter:It's sort of difficult to imagine, to comprehend that, you know, 6, 7, 8 billion, 8 billion people on the planet.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:And then around the world.
Jim Hunter:What.
Jim Hunter:What is happening with your words right now?
Keith Foskey:When I.
Keith Foskey:When I.
Keith Foskey:When I first visited South Africa, which I visited many times, I miss those folks down there.
Keith Foskey:There's great, great Christians down there.
Jim Hunter:Hard to get an RV down there.
Keith Foskey:Very, very hard to drive there.
Keith Foskey:That nation's in trouble.
Keith Foskey:It's really struggling.
Keith Foskey:But when I first visited, I went to Pachasroom, South Africa, and I just.
Keith Foskey:I think, just did a debate with a Muslim there.
Keith Foskey:And this homeschool family comes up to me, and the dad's talking about, you know, how long they've been listening.
Keith Foskey:The dividing line.
Keith Foskey:I'm on the other side of the planet.
Keith Foskey:I mean, you don't get much more on the other side of the planet than Pachas.
Keith Foskey:From South Africa.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:Actually from Phoenix, Arizona.
Keith Foskey:And there's this teenage daughter standing there.
Keith Foskey:And you know how teenage daughters are with this really deadpan look, she looks at me and she goes, I've grown up listening to your voice.
Keith Foskey:I'm on the other side of the planet.
Keith Foskey:You know, it's just like, wow, what a day we live in that we've had this type of opportunity.
Keith Foskey:And that's one of the things that a lot of us are so worried about with censorship and stuff like that.
Dr. James White:Sure.
Keith Foskey:Is to see that end.
Keith Foskey:Because it's been such a blessing, but had the time.
Keith Foskey:Still trying to use the opportunity, feel a little bit more pressure to make it work right now because you realize, man, there are people that really want to shut that down.
Keith Foskey:They don't want us to be able to have this type of freedom to.
Jim Hunter:Talk about these topics.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:To preach the gospel globally like this.
Keith Foskey:I mean, censorship is a real, real AI and stuff like that.
Keith Foskey:Gotta, gotta, gotta pray about what the future is gonna look like.
Keith Foskey:So anyway.
Jim Hunter:Yeah, well, what's so interesting about that is for a long time, podcasts were a very difficult medium to censor because it's recorded audio.
Keith Foskey:Right.
Jim Hunter:But now there are all these AI companies that produce podcast transcripts.
Jim Hunter:You have to pay for it still.
Jim Hunter:It's not expensive.
Jim Hunter:But I think there's going to be potentially a push to censor podcasts now that they've all been.
Jim Hunter:Now that you have the transcript so easily produced, they can find what you're talking about.
Keith Foskey:That's how YouTube does it.
Keith Foskey:They've been doing it for a while now.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, it's.
Keith Foskey:It's a little scary.
Keith Foskey:It's neat to have that capacity and that ability, but, yeah, it's.
Keith Foskey:It's a little bit scary.
Keith Foskey:Nothing, Nothing.
Keith Foskey:When we first started podcasting, we did it because we were so poor.
Keith Foskey:I mean, we are pioneers.
Keith Foskey:I don't know if anyone.
Keith Foskey:The dividing line has been going for.
Keith Foskey:Well, we went.
Keith Foskey: We went Digital in, like: Keith Foskey:There wasn't even MP3.
Keith Foskey:We were using something called Real Audio.
Jim Hunter:Yes, I remember.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
Keith Foskey:I mean, that's how long ago it was.
Keith Foskey:And the only reason we did it was not because we had some prophetic vision that this is where everything was going to go.
Keith Foskey:The reason we did it is because we couldn't afford to pay the Saturday air rates on a local terrestrial radio station.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:And they had started doing Real Audio.
Keith Foskey:And what we realized was because we were doing it, but it was.
Keith Foskey:It was killing us.
Keith Foskey:All of our calls were coming from people listening to the Real Audio stream.
Will Spencer:Amazing.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:And so Rich is like, I'm gonna look into this.
Keith Foskey:And he found out, you know, we can.
Keith Foskey:We can do real audio ourselves.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:And code it.
Keith Foskey:The Internet had just started.
Keith Foskey:You know, we had our website, I think our first website, in 90.
Jim Hunter:97.
Keith Foskey:98.
Keith Foskey:Somewhere around there, Texas 387.net I think was the URL back then or something like that.
Keith Foskey:And so Rich is like, I think we can do this.
Keith Foskey:And we're not spending $700 a month for a radio station where obviously no one's listening to us on a Saturday anyways.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:So that's how the dividing line went digital.
Keith Foskey:And we switched over to the MP3 stuff and stuff like that when it became available.
Keith Foskey:But, yeah, that's why we started really early.
Keith Foskey:And I'm looking right now at a guy standing over there who approached me almost two years ago now and said, hey, I want to help you guys make all of your dividing lines.
Keith Foskey:Debates, sermons, church history lectures, everything you've done.
Jim Hunter:Oh, yeah.
Keith Foskey:Available to be fully searched.
Jim Hunter:I remember you announcing this in the past year.
Keith Foskey:That's the guy right there standing about 30ft away that did it for us.
Keith Foskey:And so it's an advantage.
Keith Foskey:But at the same time, just imagine how different.
Keith Foskey:Anything I've basically said for a quarter century is fully searchable to anybody who wants to find it.
Keith Foskey:Sure, my friends use that, but my enemies do too, of course.
Keith Foskey:But no generation had before ours had ever even dreamed of that kind of thing.
Jim Hunter:It's frightening.
Keith Foskey:So what are my great grandchildren gonna be facing?
Keith Foskey:I don't know.
Keith Foskey:I don't know.
Keith Foskey:It could be great.
Keith Foskey:It could be.
Keith Foskey:Because that can be used for good or evil.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:Of course it can be used for good or evil.
Keith Foskey:And the other stuff that's going on now is like.
Keith Foskey:Do you know the program Speechify?
Jim Hunter:Yes, yes.
Keith Foskey:It will read you PDF documents, web pages, whatever I can.
Keith Foskey:I have recorded my voice model of your voice.
Keith Foskey:The model of my voice.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:And it's amazing how easy it is for me to listen to a book in my own voice.
Keith Foskey:A lot of people don't.
Keith Foskey:I talk so much.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:It's just sort of second nature.
Keith Foskey:And now that I'm so old, I'm wearing hearing aids, now I hear myself even more.
Keith Foskey:But I can listen to my own voice.
Keith Foskey:And I remember when someone posted something on Twitter, it was video of me and my mouse moving, but I'm saying things I've never heard me say before.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:And it was the beginning of AI modeling of.
Keith Foskey:Of voices.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:And I think.
Keith Foskey:I think applying God's law is going to become more and more of an issue, because by the mouth of two or three witnesses.
Keith Foskey:And it can't be a computer because the fact of the matter is you can do.
Keith Foskey:You could take what we're recording right now, and if you have the proper software and knowledge, you could change what I'm saying.
Jim Hunter:Of course, yeah.
Keith Foskey:It's all of us.
Keith Foskey:It can happen to every one of us.
Keith Foskey:It could change the question you asked.
Keith Foskey:It could change my answer.
Keith Foskey:And the video version is not far behind.
Jim Hunter:Oh, it's already.
Jim Hunter:It's already there.
Keith Foskey:Well, I know we see it.
Keith Foskey:I remember when I saw a movie called Alita Battle Angel.
Keith Foskey:Have you ever seen that?
Jim Hunter:I've heard of it.
Jim Hunter:I haven't seen it.
Keith Foskey:I was sitting in a pizza shop and I'm watching this and the sound wasn't up.
Keith Foskey:And the lead character, I'm going, her eyes are way too big.
Keith Foskey:Her eyes are.
Keith Foskey:But she looks real.
Keith Foskey:I was really freaked out about it, and I went home and looked up what the movie was and watching it, I actually ended up loving the movie.
Keith Foskey:But the point is, she's completely cgi, but looked so incredibly real that as they keep pushing that forward, we will not, as Christians, we will not be able to accept that kind of thing as witness, as testimony.
Jim Hunter:Correct.
Keith Foskey:Because it can be manufactured and there's no way for you to know.
Keith Foskey:But people will get away with stuff.
Keith Foskey:Exactly.
Keith Foskey:I have said this for years.
Keith Foskey:Now.
Keith Foskey:God's law will allow the guilty to get away because it's so concerned about convicting the innocent and the reason for that.
Keith Foskey:And see, in our world, we have to have justice now because in the secular world, there will be no justice after death.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:But in the biblical world, we do the best we can with justice now.
Jim Hunter:Yep.
Keith Foskey:And if that means guilty people get away with stuff that they.
Keith Foskey:Because look at.
Keith Foskey:Look at the stuff in the Bible.
Keith Foskey:You know, if a rape takes place and it's out in the wilderness and no one can hear the woman crying, there's not enough witnesses to do anything about it.
Keith Foskey:And you say, well, that's injust.
Keith Foskey:But the point is, the biblical idea is they will be punished.
Jim Hunter:That's right.
Keith Foskey:There's a day of sin coming eternally.
Keith Foskey:So, yeah, it's only temporary.
Keith Foskey:And it's more important that you do not convict and execute an innocent person than it is.
Keith Foskey:You catch all the bad guys.
Keith Foskey:Because the bad guys are going to get caught.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:But the bad guys aren't going to get caught anymore.
Keith Foskey:And that's why you have this MeToo stuff that took place.
Keith Foskey:The stuff that happened with the Supreme Court guy, you know, well, yeah, okay.
Keith Foskey:The statute of limitations expired 47 years ago.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:But we're still going to go for it because if we don't, he might get away with something.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:Because from their perspective, once you're dead, that's it.
Jim Hunter:That's right.
Keith Foskey: about that, you know, in Acts: Keith Foskey:And he has given evidence to all by raising him from the dead.
Keith Foskey:And this is.
Keith Foskey:I know, we're going all over the place.
Keith Foskey:I apologize.
Keith Foskey:It's just fun.
Jim Hunter:We're on a road trip.
Keith Foskey:We're on a road trip.
Keith Foskey:That's right.
Keith Foskey:And there's all sorts of people walking around anyways.
Jim Hunter:That's right.
Keith Foskey:For years and years and years, I read Paul's sermon on Mars Hill as an apologist, as a biblical scholar, the whole nine yards.
Keith Foskey:And I had.
Keith Foskey: Not until about: Keith Foskey:Because when I saw.
Keith Foskey:And he has given evidence to all by raising him from the dead.
Keith Foskey:I'm thinking he's given evidence of the resurrection.
Keith Foskey:He's given evidence to everybody.
Keith Foskey:Jesus is the Messiah, and I've proven it by raising him from the dead.
Keith Foskey:That's not what it's saying at all.
Keith Foskey:What it's saying is he has given evidence to all that there will be a day of judgment and Jesus is going to be the judge.
Keith Foskey:And I'm giving evidence of the day of judgment by raising the judge from the dead.
Keith Foskey:It's not about the resurrection.
Keith Foskey:It's about the reality of judgment coming.
Keith Foskey:And that is something that impacted common law and thought in Western countries up until that which flushed it, which is Darwin.
Jim Hunter:Okay, say.
Jim Hunter:Say more about how Darwin specifically flushed that idea.
Keith Foskey:You can.
Jim Hunter:Doug just talked about a little bit from the stage.
Keith Foskey:Exactly.
Keith Foskey:And I did.
Keith Foskey:And I think.
Keith Foskey:Not sure if it was last.
Keith Foskey:I think it was the year before last, somewhere around there.
Keith Foskey:I actually spoke up at New St.
Keith Foskey:Andrews and I spoke on how Darwinism is central to the degradation of our society.
Keith Foskey:And when you think about what Darwin did, up until Darwin, you just couldn't get rid of God because you have life.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:Once you have Darwin, you can get rid of God and therefore you get rid of judgment.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:You get rid of that judgment day coming.
Keith Foskey:You get rid of the transcendent meaning of human life.
Keith Foskey:You get rid of everything that stopped racism.
Keith Foskey:Darwin was a horrible racist.
Jim Hunter:He was the original subtitle of the Origin of Species.
Keith Foskey:Right, right, exactly, exactly.
Keith Foskey:So that people don't realize what a radical shift that was.
Jim Hunter:That's right.
Keith Foskey:You know, my grandkids struggle to even have any idea of how it was that my generation thought foundationally down at the bottom, maybe not even at the consciousness level.
Keith Foskey:We still had so much of that Christian morality, day of Judgment idea down at the bottom.
Keith Foskey:And now we're looking at generations that have none of that.
Jim Hunter:That's right.
Keith Foskey:And Chocolate Knox was just talking to me.
Keith Foskey:You know, I said, in many ways, I feel a disconnection with the younger generation.
Keith Foskey:And I think that's part of what it is, is they haven't had that and I did.
Keith Foskey:And it's almost subliminal.
Keith Foskey:It's almost below the level of thought.
Keith Foskey:It's presuppositional in essence.
Keith Foskey:And so it's really hard to address that kind of stuff and to go, hey, this is where we're missing stuff.
Keith Foskey:This is why we're not communicating the way.
Keith Foskey:And I feel like I'm not able to communicate the wisdom that hopefully I've gathered over seven decades in life to the next generation.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:Because they're not interpreting my words within that.
Keith Foskey:Within that context.
Keith Foskey:And I try and certainly succeed with some people, but other times it's beyond my capacity.
Keith Foskey:I have to.
Keith Foskey:Thankfully, I've got people like Jeff Durbin and others that are still a little bit younger.
Keith Foskey:I'm 16 years older than Jeff and Luke loves to.
Keith Foskey:I don't know if you ever heard Luke say when you were there that the reason I know so much about church history is because I was there.
Jim Hunter:I've heard them say that.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, yeah.
Keith Foskey:It's like, thanks, guys.
Keith Foskey:Appreciate that.
Keith Foskey:Appreciate that.
Will Spencer:One of my.
Jim Hunter:One of my favorite things was the James and Jeff comedy hour when you guys would pick at each other from the pulpit.
Keith Foskey:And the videos we did.
Keith Foskey:That one video we did when they were having the online poll competition between Miss Me, the online poll.
Keith Foskey:Did you get that?
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:Okay, good.
Keith Foskey:Because I.
Keith Foskey:The first president I ever got to vote for was Ronald Reagan.
Keith Foskey:So I'm proud of that.
Jim Hunter:That's a great clip from him.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, yeah, it was.
Keith Foskey:But.
Keith Foskey:But that.
Keith Foskey:That video that we did where, like, he was.
Keith Foskey:He was doing the ninja thing and we were playing the little fold up football thing together.
Keith Foskey:And.
Keith Foskey:And that was a lot of fun to do.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, that was a lot of fun to do.
Keith Foskey:We had.
Keith Foskey:We had a lot of fun doing Ask that stuff.
Keith Foskey:I love those guys.
Keith Foskey:You know, Luke and Zach don't get the Name recognition that Jeff and I do.
Keith Foskey:But there's a.
Keith Foskey:A real rough situation going on right now.
Keith Foskey:And I.
Keith Foskey:I know Pastor Zach has basically lived this past week holding stuff together.
Keith Foskey:I mean, just investing himself in such a difficult situation.
Keith Foskey:And I just.
Keith Foskey:I get to see that kind of stuff.
Keith Foskey:A lot of other people don't, but the heart that especially, you know, Zach and Zach and Luke do a lot of stuff because Jeff and I are gone a lot.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:You know, Jeff, end abortion.
Keith Foskey:Now me with.
Keith Foskey:I'm the.
Keith Foskey:I'm the quote unquote lay elder because I'm not full time with.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:I don't get paid by apologia.
Keith Foskey:I.
Keith Foskey:Alpha Omega.
Keith Foskey:But Jeff would say without Alpha and Omega, there would be no apologia.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:He's said that many, many times.
Keith Foskey:So we are sort of joined at the hip.
Keith Foskey:But he has to travel so much.
Keith Foskey:And I don't know if you're aware of the situation with his twin daughters.
Jim Hunter:Now that he had adopted.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:That, I mean, were landed on them like the stork flew overhead and just dropped them in.
Will Spencer:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:Later.
Jim Hunter:Late 20.
Jim Hunter:About a year ago.
Jim Hunter:20.
Jim Hunter:23.
Keith Foskey:Right.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:And I mean, they have specialized special needs.
Keith Foskey:They were incredibly preemie drugs on the part of the parents.
Keith Foskey:I mean, so he has to not only do the end abortion now stuff, but he's got Durbin Family 2.0.
Jim Hunter:Yes, he does.
Keith Foskey:Augustine's, I think not quite four yet.
Keith Foskey:I think might get in round four.
Keith Foskey:Augustine.
Keith Foskey:Sorry.
Keith Foskey:And the girls.
Keith Foskey:I mean, Candy.
Keith Foskey:Oh, my goodness.
Keith Foskey:Give that woman sainthood right now.
Keith Foskey:So Jeff and I are.
Keith Foskey:I'm getting older.
Keith Foskey:I'm slowing down.
Keith Foskey:So Luke and Zach, God bless them.
Keith Foskey:I love these guys and I'm honored to.
Keith Foskey:I'm honored to serve with them.
Keith Foskey:I really am.
Jim Hunter:You've seen quite an evolution in Jeff and Zach and Luke and in the church over your time there.
Jim Hunter:And I know that you guys have mutually influenced each other.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:And I think that's one of the things that comes across as the genuine bond that all of you have that wouldn't necessarily be obvious, like the bond of brotherhood that you all share.
Jim Hunter:I could feel it and I had a great appreciation for it.
Keith Foskey:Well, you know, I taught.
Keith Foskey:I preached at apologia many, many times before we went there.
Keith Foskey:I never expected to be there.
Keith Foskey:And so I had that connection all along, but I.
Keith Foskey:So years and years ago, I know we're never getting to the topic at this rate, but years and years ago, I was driving in a car with Dr.
Keith Foskey:Norman Geisler.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:Well, well known.
Keith Foskey:It was right before he wrote his book against Calvinism.
Keith Foskey:Chosen but free.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:And he made some comments to me.
Keith Foskey:He said, I'm 65 now, so I can write my systematic theology.
Keith Foskey:And I sort of went, you have to be six.
Keith Foskey:Oh, yeah.
Keith Foskey:Nobody below 65 knows enough to write a systematic theologist.
Keith Foskey:And so what about Wayne Grudem?
Keith Foskey:Waste of paper.
Keith Foskey:Waste of paper.
Jim Hunter:Wow.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:And it became clear to me that Dr.
Keith Foskey:Geisler's view was he could not learn anything from anyone younger than himself.
Jim Hunter:Oh.
Keith Foskey:And so I was much younger than him, and obviously.
Keith Foskey:And I looked at that and I.
Keith Foskey:I don't know that I ever said a specific prayer, but I.
Keith Foskey:I think I probably said something along the lines that, Lord, never let me.
Keith Foskey:Never let me go there.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:And that's why I love to learn from Jeff.
Keith Foskey:And people would say, well, but he says he calls you his spiritual father.
Keith Foskey:I mean, he credits you for, you know, the first.
Keith Foskey:The first Christian book he read after he's converted was the King James Only Gone version, which I would not recommend to anyone as the first book to read as a Christian.
Keith Foskey:But.
Keith Foskey:So how can you learn from him?
Keith Foskey:You can.
Keith Foskey:You can learn from those that are younger than you are.
Keith Foskey:And I'm not saying that there are times that I don't look at a 20something guy who doesn't have any experience in life, no experience in the pastorate who comes along and, you know, pops off some comment on Twitter and just go, you know, you roll your eyes and go, yeah, whatever.
Keith Foskey:I do.
Keith Foskey:But I learned from Jeff because Jeff has proven himself capable of learning himself.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:And going in depth on things that I haven't gone in depth on.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:And I do worry about older guys like me, who.
Keith Foskey:Yes.
Keith Foskey:In some instances there's situations where I look at somebody and go, you just haven't been through what I've been through in this subject.
Keith Foskey:I've seen this happen 47 times before.
Keith Foskey:Look out, you're in trouble.
Keith Foskey:And they won't listen, and then they end up getting in trouble.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, I.
Keith Foskey:Okay, I get that.
Keith Foskey:But when it's.
Keith Foskey:When it's.
Keith Foskey:Somebody who's really doing the work, there's just so much to learn these days.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:You know, I mean, there are topics that I.
Keith Foskey:Look, I'm not the Bible answer man.
Keith Foskey:I'm not gonna pretend to be.
Keith Foskey:There are.
Keith Foskey:There are things that I will.
Keith Foskey:I will never know.
Keith Foskey:There are areas I'm like, I'm leaving that to you.
Keith Foskey:I'm not going to debate eschatology.
Keith Foskey:I'm leaving that to Jeff.
Keith Foskey:Jeff's pretty.
Keith Foskey:Pretty darn good at that.
Jim Hunter:He's fantastic.
Keith Foskey:I'm not.
Keith Foskey:I'm not even going there, but when it comes to cbgm, I'm your.
Keith Foskey:I'm your guy.
Keith Foskey:You know cbgm.
Jim Hunter:I didn't want to ask.
Jim Hunter:I had to ask.
Keith Foskey:Oh, you have to ask.
Jim Hunter:I have to ask.
Keith Foskey:CBGM has.
Keith Foskey:Okay, that's yours.
Keith Foskey:You got an nasb?
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:It hasn't really impacted.
Keith Foskey:Impacted that one.
Keith Foskey:If that was an esv.
Keith Foskey:The esv.
Keith Foskey:I've got a LSB over here.
Keith Foskey:That is this actually.
Keith Foskey:Is this actually the lsb.
Keith Foskey:Is that perfected?
Keith Foskey:In my opinion.
Jim Hunter:Oh, interesting.
Jim Hunter:Okay, okay.
Keith Foskey:Because it is.
Keith Foskey:The LSB is the NASB with edits, so it's not a whole new translation.
Keith Foskey:Okay, okay.
Keith Foskey:So it is the nasb, but with specific changes.
Keith Foskey:And the fascinating thing is, when I was using the NASB and I was a critical consultant in the nasb, every change that I would make while reading the English is made in the lsb.
Keith Foskey:So when you read the Old Testament, you read Lord in all caps.
Keith Foskey:I would read that as Yahweh, because that's tetragram time.
Keith Foskey:LSB reads Yahweh doesn't say Lord, it says yahweh.
Keith Foskey:And Romans 9, 5, somewhat ambiguously translated in the Nesbitt, very clearly in the LSB, et cetera, et cetera.
Keith Foskey:But the difference between these two, that'll explain cbgm.
Keith Foskey:We're never going to get to our topic.
Keith Foskey:We don't know.
Jim Hunter:That's okay.
Keith Foskey:Jude 5 in the NASB will read, the Lord delivered a people out of Egypt.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:The LSB reads, jesus delivered a people out of Egypt.
Keith Foskey:Now think of the theological ramifications of saying Jesus delivered a people out of Egypt.
Keith Foskey:That's a passage on the deity of Christ.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
Keith Foskey:Now we've known for centuries and centuries and centuries, millennia that there were some manuscripts that said Lord and some manuscripts that said Jesus.
Keith Foskey:So that's not.
Keith Foskey:We didn't hide that.
Keith Foskey:That's in the textual footnotes and in the Nesalen Greek text.
Keith Foskey:It's something that's been known.
Keith Foskey:So why did they change it?
Keith Foskey:Cbgm, Coherence Based Genealogical Method, which was obviously named by a German.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Jim Hunter:Okay, I can almost hear it.
Keith Foskey:Yes.
Keith Foskey:Kohinan is the best genealogical method.
Keith Foskey:And because it was designed by a German.
Keith Foskey:And so we knew computers would eventually be used to help in textual critical study, but we didn't know exactly how.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:Simplifying a lot of stuff, because honestly, there probably aren't 200 people in the United States that really understand CBGM.
Keith Foskey:And that includes all the New Testament professors.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:All right.
Keith Foskey:So that's how new.
Keith Foskey:And you have to read really in depth stuff.
Keith Foskey:Do it.
Keith Foskey:I was doing a PhD program in South Africa.
Keith Foskey:It didn't end up being able to be completed, but that's where I had to start working on cbgm.
Keith Foskey:Basically what it does, computers can see patterns in large bodies of data that you and I can't.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Jim Hunter:Large language models.
Keith Foskey:Exactly.
Keith Foskey:So they can look at.
Keith Foskey:They can.
Keith Foskey:So what they do is they collate.
Keith Foskey:What they did is they collated pretty much all the manuscripts of Jude around the world.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:You put it into a computer database and the computer is able to see where certain manuscripts are related to other manuscripts.
Keith Foskey:In having the same readings at like 50, 15, 20 different variants.
Keith Foskey:I can do that for two or three variants.
Keith Foskey:I can remember that this manuscript and that manuscript in these two or three major places, they agree.
Keith Foskey:But the computer can do it with all of them.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:And go.
Keith Foskey:These have coherence.
Keith Foskey:They are related to one another.
Keith Foskey:And basically what CBGM does is what it recognized at Jude 5 was that the manuscripts that said Jesus, their closest relatives also said Jesus.
Keith Foskey:So there was consistency in transcription.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:But for many of the manuscripts that said Lord, their closest Manus, their closest relatives said Jesus.
Keith Foskey:So there had been a disruption because.
Keith Foskey:Which is easier if you're reading the Old Testament, you're going to.
Keith Foskey:The Lord delivered people out of Egypt is second nature.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:Jesus delivered people out of Egypt is not second nature.
Jim Hunter:No, that's.
Jim Hunter:Does that really say that?
Keith Foskey:Exactly, exactly.
Keith Foskey:And so what CBGM does is it says there's more coherence for this reading than there is for this reading.
Keith Foskey:It's just another tool.
Keith Foskey:Yes, you can reject it, but it's a tool that you have to go, well, why am I rejecting it?
Keith Foskey:I have to now argue against that.
Keith Foskey:It's a massive database of information.
Keith Foskey:Only 30 years ago, we basically had to say, well, you know, there's only about 1% variation.
Keith Foskey:You know, this scholar says that this.
Keith Foskey:Now we can pull the whole stinking thing up online and there's the database and it can tell you exactly which ones are related to what, how often they agree with one another.
Keith Foskey:It's.
Keith Foskey:There are a lot of people that are scared of it because it looks like a big black box that's going to tell you what the Bible actually said.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Jim Hunter:That.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:But it's not.
Keith Foskey:That's not what it is at all.
Keith Foskey:It is instead, in my Opinion a tremendous step forward in being able to defend the text of the New Testament.
Keith Foskey:It hasn't been done for the Old Testament yet, but it could be.
Keith Foskey:It just takes a lot of money to enter all that data and collate all the manuscripts and do all the rest of that kind of stuff.
Keith Foskey:So right now, what they are doing, when I say they, it's the New Testament center in Munster, West Germany.
Keith Foskey:Well, West Germany.
Keith Foskey:See how old I am.
Keith Foskey:Munster, Germany.
Keith Foskey:They're the ones that print the United Bible Cited Texts and ESRI Allen text, which have been used for all the Bible translations for years.
Keith Foskey:They're putting out what's called the ecm, the Edicio Critico Mayor.
Keith Foskey:It will be the most massive scholarly Greek New Testament ever produced.
Jim Hunter:Oh, wow.
Keith Foskey:I just got word that my copy of Revelation just shipped a month and a half late.
Keith Foskey:$700 just for revelation.
Jim Hunter:Is this a print thing?
Keith Foskey:In print.
Keith Foskey:Four volumes, over 4,000 pages.
Jim Hunter:Oh, okay.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
Keith Foskey:So.
Keith Foskey:And Revelation has the wildest textual history of any book in the New Testament.
Jim Hunter:I don't doubt it.
Keith Foskey:Well, and you can understand why it had to fight for.
Keith Foskey:Agree.
Keith Foskey:It had to fight for a position in the canon.
Keith Foskey:Because it's a little weird.
Will Spencer:It's a little weird.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
Keith Foskey:You know, thankfully the early church wasn't running around going, we don't have enough books with 10 headed monsters in it.
Keith Foskey:Let's see if we can find some more.
Keith Foskey:You know, they're doing that.
Will Spencer:You know what this is missing.
Keith Foskey:Exactly.
Keith Foskey:So we have the fewest manuscripts of Revelation than any other book in the New Testament because of that.
Keith Foskey:And hence the variation is the widest in Revelation, like the book of Hebrews, almost no textual variation at all in it.
Keith Foskey:So it's a very, very different thing.
Keith Foskey:Anyways, so my ecm, the ECM has been published for Mark, Acts, the general Epistles and Revelation.
Keith Foskey:Okay, so the rest of the Gospels, the Pauline corpus, they're still working on that.
Keith Foskey:And so yes, the printed edition will.
Jim Hunter:Probably be 50 volumes of everything.
Keith Foskey:It'll take shelves, sure.
Keith Foskey:But they're putting it all online.
Keith Foskey:They're not hiding anything.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Jim Hunter:Open source, sort of.
Keith Foskey:And the neat thing is you can literally go on their website, you can go into an app that they've produced and you can go into.
Keith Foskey:I'm sure Revelation will come out here soon, but Mark right now, or Acts, and you can change all the variables in the programming.
Keith Foskey:So you can, you can like.
Keith Foskey:Because they'll say, well, we're going to base our judgment on coherence based on 5, 5 degrees of removal, you can change that to 2 or change it to 10, or you can go the other direction.
Keith Foskey:In other words, you, if once you learn how to use it, you don't have to agree with what some, some scholars are telling you to do with it, you can vary it yourself and go, what's the result?
Keith Foskey:What is the computer now going to say in regards to this variant?
Keith Foskey:So it's not because I understand why people would not want a computer generated biblical text.
Keith Foskey:The computer told us, I get that that's not what it is.
Keith Foskey:It really is a massively positive thing for the defense of the Christian faith.
Keith Foskey:But I can understand why a lot of folks are a little standoffish about it.
Keith Foskey:And part of the reason is there might be a dozen pastors in the US that actually understand CBGM and could explain it.
Keith Foskey:So it's going to take some work and I don't think revelation is going to do it.
Keith Foskey:But once I think John comes out, because there's an important textual variance of John.
Keith Foskey:John118, is it monogenes Theos the unique God, Monogenes Huias the unique son.
Keith Foskey:That's an, that's important.
Keith Foskey:Once John comes out and once Paul comes out, Romans 5:1, all sorts of textual variants in Paul, that's when I think the press is finally going to pick it up.
Keith Foskey:And unfortunately the press doesn't understand any of this stuff.
Keith Foskey:And so it's going to, you know, but there's a number of us that are willing to step up and go, okay, no, that's not what's happening.
Keith Foskey:This is really what's.
Keith Foskey:What's going on.
Keith Foskey:So that's cbgm, that makes sense.
Keith Foskey:And it's, it has.
Keith Foskey:So, so there's a difference between this and a difference between that and the whole difference is cbgm.
Will Spencer:Got it.
Keith Foskey:Because what happened was they changed from the Nest 27th edition that, that was based on Neste all in 28th edition, they changed the text reading.
Keith Foskey:Now if you looked at the one this was based on the nasb, nasb.
Keith Foskey:The reading Jesus is at the bottom of the page in the textual apparatus.
Keith Foskey:It has been there for years and years and years.
Keith Foskey:Now Lord is in the apparatus and Jesus is in the text reading.
Keith Foskey:They're all still both there, right?
Keith Foskey:You don't have to accept that.
Keith Foskey:I mean, you know, there are many times, even when preaching, there will be times I read the text apparatus very easily.
Keith Foskey:And so there are times I will change the text reading if I feel that this variant down here has a better case.
Keith Foskey:So it's not like we're hiding anything or you're changing the Bible.
Keith Foskey:No, we're dealing with what is in the text.
Keith Foskey:And so the nestle all in 28th edition says Jesus, and that's what the LSV was based on.
Will Spencer:Okay.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
Keith Foskey:So.
Keith Foskey:And the ESV, their, their translation committee still exists, and so they're making edits or revisions.
Keith Foskey:They will make.
Keith Foskey:They will make changes every few years.
Keith Foskey:And when the Es, when the NASA changed to Jesus, the current ESV reads Jesus, the original ESV said Lord.
Jim Hunter:Got it.
Keith Foskey:That's the reason.
Keith Foskey:There's always a reason.
Keith Foskey:It's not just their I want to change the theology.
Keith Foskey:It's never that.
Jim Hunter:So I'm not sure if you know, but I grew up in a Jewish family in Phoenix and I went to Brophy.
Jim Hunter:Brophy.
Keith Foskey:Brophy.
Keith Foskey:Oh, that's pretty strange.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:Good Catholic.
Keith Foskey:Good Catholic school.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:But I didn't actually learn anything about the Gospel.
Jim Hunter:Well, all that I remember from my education of Brophy was about textual criticism.
Keith Foskey:Really?
Jim Hunter:I remember, yes.
Jim Hunter:My sophomore year I took a class with a Jesuit priest and I remember learning that there were three Isaiahs.
Jim Hunter:Isaiah 1, 2 and 3.
Jim Hunter:Three different guys.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Jim Hunter:You're rolling your eyes.
Jim Hunter:And then the other thing that I remember learning was that all that Mark wrote the first gospel and the others were based on Mark.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:None of which is textual criticism.
Jim Hunter:Oh, okay.
Jim Hunter:I have only heard it referred to as that.
Keith Foskey:I understand.
Keith Foskey:But none of that is textual criticism.
Keith Foskey:That's the problem is textual criticism is based upon.
Jim Hunter:They didn't call it that at the time either.
Jim Hunter:They just said, this is just how the Bible works.
Keith Foskey:Like form criticism is the stuff with Isaiah, deutero, Isaiah and all this other stuff.
Keith Foskey:Because textual criticism deals with manuscripts.
Keith Foskey:It deals with factual stuff.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:And you don't have that kind of stuff.
Keith Foskey:We are at fife laps, feast.
Keith Foskey:So when Doug Wilson walks by, you salute properly.
Jim Hunter:Hey, Doug.
Will Spencer:Good to see you.
Keith Foskey:We got to sit down for at least five minutes sometime today, sadly.
Keith Foskey:All right, so text criticism is a fact based study.
Keith Foskey:You have to be able to demonstrate the existence of manuscripts.
Keith Foskey:Whereas when you're talking about form criticism, you can theorize and say, I think Isaiah 1 through 39 was written during such a period of time.
Keith Foskey:And then Isaiah 40 and following is written later because it names, name.
Keith Foskey:It names prophetic names.
Keith Foskey:And we know that people don't know the future and therefore it had to have been written later.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
Keith Foskey:And so you're doing form criticism, but you're not having to worry about having manuscripts.
Keith Foskey:And the other Stuff you're talking about in the Synoptic Gospels is, you know, what's the synoptic problem?
Keith Foskey:Who's related to whom?
Keith Foskey:Was Mark first and then Matthew and Luke edited him, and then John was just off on an island someplace doing something weird?
Keith Foskey:Or are they all written separately from one another?
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:Was Luke written first?
Keith Foskey:Was Matthew written first?
Keith Foskey:I mean, that is a huge, huge, huge area of conversation and discussion.
Keith Foskey:But it's not based on manuscripts, because the earliest manuscript, the earliest.
Keith Foskey:The best attested gospel that we have with the earliest manuscripts is John.
Jim Hunter:Oh, wow.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:And nobody says John was first.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:And yet the earliest, in fact, probably the earliest papyri fragment we have of any New Testament book is called P52.
Jim Hunter:Okay, I've heard you speak about this before.
Keith Foskey:And P52 is from John, chapter 18, verses 31, 34.
Jim Hunter:Would you go to visit P52 in a museum or something?
Keith Foskey:No, I've seen.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, I've seen a number, P46.
Keith Foskey:And maybe that's the one.
Keith Foskey:Stuff like that in various.
Keith Foskey:But P52 was over in Europe.
Keith Foskey:I didn't get a chance to see that one.
Keith Foskey:But yeah.
Keith Foskey:So it's not based on manuscripts.
Keith Foskey:That is a whole.
Keith Foskey:The whole argument about Matthew priority or Mark and priority or Luke in priority.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:That comes not from manuscripts but from theory.
Jim Hunter:So I guess my question then would be, so these were the things that I was learning from the Maybe to try and transition to the topic we were going to talk about.
Jim Hunter:These are the things that I was learning from the Roman Catholic Church, from Jesuits in the 90s.
Jim Hunter:And so you're talking about this large language model processing of Scripture that's going to say, oh, this comes from this, and this comes from this.
Jim Hunter:And it seems to me that something that can actually be used to undermine sola scriptura.
Jim Hunter:Like, well, are there all these flaws?
Jim Hunter:And now we can see them in high resolution.
Jim Hunter:And so you need someone to interpret them for you so you don't end up interpreting these things for yourself using AI tools.
Keith Foskey:No, no, no.
Keith Foskey:And really, the CVGM is not so much an AI tool as it is a massive database that you're connecting manuscripts to one another and allowing the computer to do that.
Jim Hunter:Oh, so it's not something you can send a query to.
Keith Foskey:No.
Jim Hunter:And then we all know.
Jim Hunter:Okay, got it.
Jim Hunter:It's just.
Jim Hunter:It illustrates connections.
Keith Foskey:Right.
Jim Hunter:But it doesn't have any intelligence.
Keith Foskey:It can take two manuscripts and look at their agreements and disagreements at every single point, and our minds can't do that.
Jim Hunter:Okay, okay, okay.
Keith Foskey:And they can.
Keith Foskey:And that's why we're able to use it in that way.
Keith Foskey:That's what CBGM is about.
Keith Foskey:But no, I don't think it undercuts Sola Scriptura at all.
Keith Foskey:I understand why people try to say that because they assume that sola scriptura means all you can ever talk about is the Bible.
Keith Foskey:You only have to use biblical language.
Keith Foskey:You can't talk about computers.
Keith Foskey:You can't talk about cbgm, you can't talk about.
Keith Foskey:No, that's not what Sola Scriptura is about.
Keith Foskey:Sol Scriptura is simply affirming the unique nature of scripture as being the.
Keith Foskey:That's why I found it somewhat interesting.
Keith Foskey:I've done five, at least five Roman Catholic debates this year.
Jim Hunter:This year?
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:Two with Trent Horn, two with Trent.
Keith Foskey:Horn, two with Jimmy Akin, and one with Tom Riello a week ago today.
Keith Foskey:And so what was interesting is something that Trent had started doing in his debates on solo scriptura was questioning the meaning of theanustos and saying it doesn't actually mean God grieved.
Jim Hunter:I heard him do that in one of the debates.
Keith Foskey:Yes.
Keith Foskey:And Jimmy Akin didn't do that because he knows he can't defend it.
Keith Foskey:And Trent didn't do it when he debated me on it because he doesn't want to get into the Greek in that context.
Keith Foskey:So.
Keith Foskey:And I think some other people have pointed out to him that it's grossly inconsistent for him as a Roman Catholic to take that perspective, because Rome has always accepted that every Roman Catholic I debated, Mitchell Pacwa, Pat Madrid, none of them had disputed the meaning of theodostas at all.
Keith Foskey:So I think he sort of tried it and got a lot of negative pushback on that.
Keith Foskey:But the issue of sola scriptura is the nature of scripture.
Keith Foskey:It's not the transmission of scripture over time.
Keith Foskey:Because when you look at when Jesus is talking to the Sadducees, how does he refute their story of the woman with the lever at lost?
Keith Foskey:She has to marry the seven brothers and they all die.
Keith Foskey:Who is she going to be married to in heaven?
Jim Hunter:You do error.
Keith Foskey:You err not knowing the scripture in the power of God.
Keith Foskey:Have you not read what was.
Keith Foskey:Have you not read what was spoken to you by God?
Keith Foskey:That's Jesus view of what Scripture is.
Keith Foskey:And he based his argument on the tense of the verb, I am the God of Abraham, the God of I was.
Keith Foskey:I am the God.
Keith Foskey:So Abraham still exists.
Keith Foskey:So Jesus believed that it could be transmitted over time.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:Without falling apart and being corrupted.
Keith Foskey: ountable for what was written: Keith Foskey:So when people challenge me on that, I go, you know what?
Keith Foskey:I just want to take Jesus view of Scripture.
Keith Foskey:I mean, seriously, I did an entire sermon.
Keith Foskey:We had to cancel services about two months ago at Apologia.
Keith Foskey:And, I mean, we went through Covid without ever closing.
Jim Hunter:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:But we had to cancel service one Sunday, and I had to record a sermon in the studio, and it was on Jesus view of Scripture.
Keith Foskey:So you might find it interesting, the reason we did it is that they painted the floor in the gym.
Jim Hunter:Yep.
Keith Foskey:So we would have been heretical charismatics within five minutes.
Jim Hunter:You say that like it's a bad thing.
Keith Foskey:Oh, no, I said heretical character.
Keith Foskey:I mean, it was bad.
Keith Foskey:I mean, the fumes were unsurvivable.
Keith Foskey:And so Covid couldn't take us down.
Keith Foskey:But paint.
Keith Foskey:Sherwin Williams did.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Keith Foskey:So.
Keith Foskey:But I did it on that, because I think that's something every Christian needs to know, needs to be convinced of, is that I'm holding Jesus view of Scripture.
Jim Hunter:Got it.
Keith Foskey:If you want to come up with something else, fine.
Keith Foskey:But you didn't rise from the dead.
Keith Foskey:So I think he's got the best position for.
Keith Foskey:And it's not impossible at all to determine what Jesus view of scripture was.
Keith Foskey:It's pretty straightforward.
Keith Foskey:It's pretty clear.
Jim Hunter:So I know you've got a ton of people to talk to, so we can talk about some of the other issues later.
Jim Hunter:But just, I think then the last question that I want to ask is, so you've had such a distinguished career of advocating for the Reformed Protestant position of sola scriptura and so many other issues.
Jim Hunter:Who do you see coming now that can mount such a strong defense in an era that it seems like.
Jim Hunter:And again, this is another topic, where Rome is resurgent or Eastern Orthodoxy is resurgent, who do you see coming following after you who can mount such a defense in the public square in the ways that you have done over the past 40 years?
Keith Foskey:A lot of folks ask me, why aren't you doing special training of people and stuff like that?
Keith Foskey:And I'll be honest.
Keith Foskey:You have to be born with the ability to multitask to do debating.
Keith Foskey:When you're in a debate, you are listening to the guy talking.
Keith Foskey:You're taking notes.
Keith Foskey:When you take notes, you're prioritizing.
Keith Foskey:You might have 10 points, but I only have half the time he had.
Jim Hunter:That's right.
Keith Foskey:So I have to prioritize them in order.
Keith Foskey:So you're doing that while still listening, while taking notes.
Keith Foskey:When you're up there speaking, you can't be distracted by time, but you have to keep an eye on time.
Keith Foskey:I don't know how many of my debates you've heard, but most of my opponents, dozens, will be halfway through a point when they run out of time, which the audience isn't impressed by.
Keith Foskey:That it ruins the point he was making because now he's got to stop and he's going to come back later and address it.
Keith Foskey:It's too late.
Keith Foskey:It doesn't work that way.
Keith Foskey:I always finish on time.
Keith Foskey:I'm always finishing my point on time.
Jim Hunter:Yes.
Keith Foskey:I grew up doing radio, so the clock was always on the wall.
Keith Foskey:I had to back time my music.
Keith Foskey:So UPI world news starts at top of the hour.
Keith Foskey:You know, this song has to stop if it's halfway through.
Keith Foskey:People don't like this.
Keith Foskey:So I learned to do all that kind of stuff as a youth.
Keith Foskey:But you have to be wired to do that.
Keith Foskey:There are scholars so much smarter than I am that should never debate because they look like idiots when they do.
Keith Foskey:They look like they don't know what they're talking about.
Keith Foskey:It's horrible.
Keith Foskey:But they shouldn't.
Keith Foskey:But that's just.
Keith Foskey:It's just a skill.
Keith Foskey:So obviously I look at people like.
Jim Hunter:Who are we clapping for?
Keith Foskey:I have no idea.
Keith Foskey:It's for him.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, it's for Harbor Freight.
Keith Foskey:Doug Wilson, standing ovation.
Jim Hunter:Keith Foskey.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, Keith Foskey, who bought me a cheeseburger years and years ago.
Keith Foskey:He went to McDonald's for me and got me a Quarter Pounder of cheese.
Keith Foskey:And he will admit this.
Keith Foskey:Hey, Keith.
Keith Foskey:Keith, I want you to show.
Keith Foskey:I want you to show my friend here.
Keith Foskey:What do you look like when you're staring at a man who's eating a Quarter Pounder of cheese?
Jim Hunter:See, I wish the microphone could capture that look.
Keith Foskey:How much of.
Keith Foskey:How much of your quarter pound of cheese are you going to enjoy exactly?
Keith Foskey:Is sitting in your hotel room watching you eat?
:Invited me in.
Keith Foskey:He told me, what am I going to do?
Keith Foskey:Accept the food, the door and kick him out?
Keith Foskey:I would have.
Keith Foskey:I would have been like you.
Keith Foskey:Look at that face.
:He said, entrez vous.
Keith Foskey:He looks.
:Which means enter.
Jim Hunter:Yes, I think in German, maybe.
Keith Foskey:Doesn't he look like he needs friends?
:Yes, I'm desperate for friends.
:This is all just to get friends.
:That's all.
:The whole Harbor Freight Doug thing, it's all I'm desperate.
Dr. James White:Gonna be.
:My friend, Keith Foske.
:Nice to meet you.
Jim Hunter:Nice to Meet you.
Will Spencer:We're friends now.
Keith Foskey:Thank you.
Keith Foskey:How long have we known each other now?
:20 years.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
:I was at John Dominic's or.
:I'm sorry, John Shelby Spong.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
: That was Florida,: Keith Foskey:I don't remember.
:It was around that same time.
:That's when we met.
Keith Foskey:Okay.
Keith Foskey:All right.
:Yeah, it's somewhere.
:And I did the cheeseburger thing.
:Did he say what that means?
Jim Hunter:The cheeseburger.
Keith Foskey:Quarter pound of cheese.
Jim Hunter:Yeah, that you bought him a.
Jim Hunter:You bought him a burger and you sat in the hotel room.
:I sidled up to him because I was.
:Yeah, I was 25 years old.
:He was who he is.
:And I just pretended like I knew him.
:I just sort of stood there and got closer and closer and he.
:And he happened to say, you know, guys, I'm hungry and I don't have a car.
:And I said, I have a car.
:I will go get you food.
:And I went and got his food.
:And he told me his hotel room.
:You don't give a stranger your hotel room.
Dr. James White:But he did.
:And I ended up at the hotel room watching him eat.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
:And feeling awkward but not wanting to leave.
Jim Hunter:I don't know what to do in this moment.
Jim Hunter:Like, I don't, I don't.
:I had the same moment with Doug a few minutes ago.
:I was out there waiting because, you know, we both went on stage together and I'm standing there with him.
:I'm like, I want to say something.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
:But I don't want to.
:I don't know what to say.
:Awkward silence is the worst.
:So I said something stupid.
Jim Hunter:Something stupid is better than nothing at all in some.
Keith Foskey:There's, there's, there's Keith Foskey.
Keith Foskey:There you go.
Keith Foskey:Great.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Jim Hunter:Special guest appearance.
Keith Foskey:Special guest appearance by Keith Foske.
Jim Hunter:Yeah, I remember we were.
Jim Hunter:Oh, we were talking about.
Keith Foskey:Oh, what's the.
Keith Foskey:Who's.
Keith Foskey:Who's coming up?
Keith Foskey:Who's coming up?
Jim Hunter:Special.
Jim Hunter:Special Yoda esque training on Dagobah.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:I'll be honest with you.
Keith Foskey:That's something the Lord.
Keith Foskey:The Lord has to call you to do, that kind of work.
Jim Hunter:The skills related to the debate really do.
Keith Foskey:You know, obviously Jeff and I work real well together.
Keith Foskey:We've done a couple debates together.
Jim Hunter:Andy Freeze debate.
Keith Foskey:The antifreeze debate was classic.
Keith Foskey:My son in law, Eric Yeager, is just sharp as attack.
Keith Foskey:And I could see him.
Keith Foskey:He's done one debate.
Keith Foskey:I could see him doing future debates.
Keith Foskey:That would be really, really good as well.
Keith Foskey:But, you know, I think we're.
Keith Foskey:I think we're Going to be facing some challenging times, and I'm hoping there's a lot of young men walking around here that will take up the.
Keith Foskey:Take up the challenge, take up the mantle.
Jim Hunter:I think the thing that's most striking about your debate style is that you don't resort to, like, personal comments.
Jim Hunter:You keep it completely above.
Keith Foskey:Try to.
Keith Foskey:This last debate was a little bit tough because he was doing it, but.
Keith Foskey:But, yeah, once you go there, the debate's over.
Keith Foskey:You've lost the subject.
Jim Hunter:Absolutely.
Keith Foskey:So that's a problem.
Jim Hunter:So just one question about your Trent Horn debate, and we can cut this out.
Jim Hunter:So in the first Trent Horn debate you did about Sola Scriptura, he leaned in and said, do you think I'm a Christian?
Keith Foskey:Right.
Jim Hunter:And I felt listening to that, that was so far over the line and unnecessary that I actually lost a lot of respect for Trent Horn because I didn't feel.
Jim Hunter:Feel that that was nothing new.
Jim Hunter:It's nothing new.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:Nothing new.
Keith Foskey:No, that's.
Keith Foskey:That's standard.
Keith Foskey:That's.
Keith Foskey:That's a way of getting some emotional stuff on your side.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Jim Hunter:So it was what I thought it was.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, it was.
Keith Foskey:And.
Keith Foskey: ned at Boston College back in: Keith Foskey:So the issues were already out there.
Jim Hunter:Okay.
Keith Foskey:And so I was like, look, look, we've made it clear that we don't believe in the same gospel here, so I'm uncomfortable with this and stuff like that.
Keith Foskey:So.
Keith Foskey:No, that's not unusual at all.
Keith Foskey:I knew what he was doing, but that's not the first time I've debated Trent.
Keith Foskey:I did learn something, though, when we were talking, and that is that my debate with him at G3 was his first public debate.
Jim Hunter:Oh, wow.
Keith Foskey:He's a sharp guy.
Keith Foskey:He really is.
Keith Foskey:But what's really interesting is watching the divergence of Roman Catholic apologetics under Francis.
Jim Hunter:Oh, yes.
Keith Foskey:Because they have to spend so much time Popesplaining.
Jim Hunter:Yes, they do.
Keith Foskey:And that's.
Keith Foskey:I feel for them, but I would, you know, my word to them is you took the wrong turn back there with the papacy to begin with.
Keith Foskey:Come on back and everything will be fine.
Keith Foskey:So, you know, but it is interesting that when I first started doing debates with Roman Catholics, I was still such a fundamentalist that I would have struggled to be overly nice, personally to them, because I would have felt it was compromise.
Will Spencer:Oh.
Keith Foskey:But I don't have that issue any longer, and I can sit and talk with Trent.
Keith Foskey:We don't compromise anything.
Jim Hunter:Sure.
Keith Foskey:You know, I've Actually contacted other Roman Catholic apologists from my past.
Keith Foskey:I said, you know, if I ever said anything in the past that was just ridiculously in your face type of a thing, I apologize, and I don't want to do that kind of thing.
Keith Foskey:And his response was, same thing.
Jim Hunter:That's so gracious.
Keith Foskey:And so we'll have interesting conversations about what's going on in the world, but then we'll always end up parting company at the end, because you get to the end, it's like.
Keith Foskey:And so we need to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary to solve this.
Jim Hunter:And it's like, maybe not.
Keith Foskey:Yeah, yeah.
Keith Foskey:It's heartbreaking.
Keith Foskey:It really is heartbreaking to me.
Keith Foskey:I guess that would be the one thing I would say is, how have you changed over the years?
Keith Foskey:Is.
Keith Foskey:I'm much more.
Keith Foskey:I do want to see the person I'm talking to come to know the truth.
Keith Foskey:Yeah.
Keith Foskey:There are some situations if the.
Keith Foskey:If the person's an apostate, if the person once knew.
Keith Foskey:So when I debated John Dominic Cross, I was like an alien to him.
Keith Foskey:He had spent the entire decade of the sixties studying the Gospels in a cell as a monk.
Keith Foskey:You know, I mean, a Reformed Baptist.
Keith Foskey:I'm like an alien from another planet.
Keith Foskey:Oh, sure, yeah.
Keith Foskey:And he was just the nicest, as he.
Keith Foskey:I always said, you're the nicest heretic I've ever met.
Keith Foskey:And he embraced that.
Keith Foskey:He thought that was a pretty cool statement.
Keith Foskey:But at the same time, there was a guy that we debated on that cruise who had been evangelical and now denied the resurrection, denied everything.
Keith Foskey:And I just can't have the same relationship there.
Keith Foskey:Of course, Biblically, John Don McCrossen has never known what I believe.
Jim Hunter:Right.
Keith Foskey:So I can reach out to him.
Keith Foskey:And, you know, you're not talking about someone who knew and denied, but sometimes this last debate I did was someone who did know.
Keith Foskey:Graduate of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte.
Keith Foskey:He's heard the truth, and now he's chosen to deny it.
Keith Foskey:And that means I'm not going to be eating at Whataburger and just having a cheeseburger.
Keith Foskey:Right.
Keith Foskey:But for, you know, like, my Muslim opponents, they just don't know what to do with me because I'll have dinner with them and I'll show them love, and I can.
Keith Foskey:I'm concerned for them.
Keith Foskey:I remember talking to this one guy.
Keith Foskey:How old are you?
Keith Foskey:I'm 31.
Keith Foskey:Married?
Keith Foskey:No.
Keith Foskey:Why not?
Keith Foskey:And he's like, yeah.
Keith Foskey:And I just did the father thing.
Keith Foskey:The father.
Keith Foskey:I care for you.
Keith Foskey:You need to get married.
Keith Foskey:He did.
Keith Foskey:But they don't know what to do with me because I understand Islam.
Keith Foskey:I don't compromise.
Keith Foskey:I hold to my perspective and I care for them.
Keith Foskey:You know what the sad thing is?
Keith Foskey:They meet so many, so few Christians.
Keith Foskey:They care for them.
Jim Hunter:That's right.
Keith Foskey:Don't get me going on that one.
Keith Foskey:I've got a whole sermon on that one.
Keith Foskey:Besides that, we've gone for about an hour.
Keith Foskey:An hour.
Jim Hunter:Praise God, sir.
Jim Hunter:There's much more for us to talk about.
Jim Hunter:We started out talking about the blessings that your work has had on many around the world.
Jim Hunter:I'm one of those.
Jim Hunter:Listening to your debates, listening to your dividing lines.
Jim Hunter:It blesses my faith.
Jim Hunter:And I think about the things that I've learned from you every single day when I talk to Roman Catholics or when I interact with Muslims on my Twitter timeline.
Jim Hunter:So your work continues to bless me.
Jim Hunter:I'm one of those people.
Jim Hunter:So thank you, sir.
Jim Hunter:Thank you.
Keith Foskey:Thank you for.
Keith Foskey:It was a very enjoyable conversation.
Keith Foskey:We'll have to do it again sometime.
Jim Hunter:Absolutely.
Keith Foskey:Thanks.
Jim Hunter:Sa.
